New Pinnacle Management team

[Flyer1015]

Flyer- so one assumes by your reasoning that experience counts for nothing. The only reason your logic works (no pic to move on) in the real world is from the HR stand point of "equal" opportunity programs and daddy is in management so I will get hired by United. PIC time equals time and experience making decisions that matter. But just go on thinking just the opposite. You have no PIC and were gifted an opportunity and must justify why you were given sais opportunity.

Experience does matter, and PIC is excellent. However, PIC (by upgrading) isn't a special skill that only a select few can attain due to skill. It is solely a factor dependent on the economy, the regional airline, and its growth/attrition plans. The reason most 5+ year RJ FOs haven't upgraded isn't because of a lack of skill, it's due to the fact the industry has stagnated and current RJ Captains aren't going anywhere. RJ wages were not meant to be lived on for the better part of a decade. What's your solution for these people? Totally pass them over and hire only RJ Captains? So that maybe one day, a RJ FO can hope to be a 10-12yr RJ Captain the first time he sees the left seat? And in that mean time make 30-40k at most?

Personally, I think management pilot/HR types have realized the industry stagnation has left lots of higher time FOs with no TPIC and because that's no fault of their own, they are giving them a fair chance. Also, it's not just minorities or family members getting called as RJ FOs. I've heard of several RJ FO white, non-family relation pilots getting hired at United, US Airways, Spirit, JetBlue, and VX.

 

[xjhawk]

"higher time First officers are not 3000-4000 hour pilots" and that is the level the majors and national airlines are hiring before captains with greater than 6,000 hours and decision making experience. But your point is valid about the stagnation. At some point a long time FO deserves a chance. But I must say that I just flew with a guy that during a simple diversion because of weather I had to walk him through all the simple steps that needed to be done for the diversion-what to say to dispatch, changing the destination on the FMS, setting a new landing alt for a comfy landing on the ears. so much for 5-6 years of experience and helping me out a little. I am sure he will go somewhere before me though

 

[Flyer1015]

"higher time First officers are not 3000-4000 hour pilots" and that is the level the majors and national airlines are hiring before captains with greater than 6,000 hours and decision making experience. But your point is valid about the stagnation. At some point a long time FO deserves a chance. But I must say that I just flew with a guy that during a simple diversion because of weather I had to walk him through all the simple steps that needed to be done for the diversion-what to say to dispatch, changing the destination on the FMS, setting a new landing alt for a comfy landing on the ears. so much for 5-6 years of experience and helping me out a little. I am sure he will go somewhere before me though

LOL! That sucks. These are the (although usually rare) guys that sit on their hands after 4-5 years in the right seat, and then also have a problem on the ATP ride. It isn't just handed out, you have to earn it. I'm surprised though about diversion, especially at 9E flying in the winter weather in the midwest and northeast, you'd think he'd have at least a couple diversions under his belt. I did IOE in a December, reserve Jan/Feb, and Feb I diverted going into DAY, ended up landing at CMH. Took off later, and then landed at DAY. And yes, this was a highspeed! :-O

As for higher time, yes, any FO that has been flying regularly at 9E fro 2007-8 probably has a good 4000-6000+ hours by now, mostly all SIC RJ time. A few upgraded and then were downgraded after the XJ/9L mess.

I will agree that, if ALL things equal, I'd call a 6000 hr RJ CA before a 3000 hr RJ FO. But it seems these days, airlines are now starting online testing, VX did it and now apparently Spirit does too! When this is used to weed out people, it unfortunately takes out the total time equation. The system shows who passed the test, and as long as the mins are met, the name is passed onto HR to call for interview.

I wonder if United or Delta have something similar?

 

[1.3XVso]

LOL! That sucks. These are the (although usually rare) guys that sit on their hands after 4-5 years in the right seat, and then also have a problem on the ATP ride. It isn't just handed out, you have to earn it. I'm surprised though about diversion, especially at 9E flying in the winter weather in the midwest and northeast, you'd think he'd have at least a couple diversions under his belt. I did IOE in a December, reserve Jan/Feb, and Feb I diverted going into DAY, ended up landing at CMH. Took off later, and then landed at DAY. And yes, this was a highspeed! :-O

As for higher time, yes, any FO that has been flying regularly at 9E fro 2007-8 probably has a good 4000-6000+ hours by now, mostly all SIC RJ time. A few upgraded and then were downgraded after the XJ/9L mess.

I will agree that, if ALL things equal, I'd call a 6000 hr RJ CA before a 3000 hr RJ FO. But it seems these days, airlines are now starting online testing, VX did it and now apparently Spirit does too! When this is used to weed out people, it unfortunately takes out the total time equation. The system shows who passed the test, and as long as the mins are met, the name is passed onto HR to call for interview.

I wonder if United or Delta have something similar?

We have some real winners here at 9E. Between Captains that can't work the numbers to get a jumpseater on, Captains asking for a alternate with a cloud over the field, Captains delaying flights for WX, FO's who think they are supreme man pilots, FO's from riddle, UND, who in their greeting speach they add " Im a riddle grad" yeah so what. Anyways yeah we have some winners.

 

[1.3XVso]

Speech*

 

[xjhawk]

captains delaying a flight for weather is a bad thing? I just had dispatch try to send me to two different airports with major thunder storms. The first time I agreed to go because it seemed we had plenty of time-which turned into a diversion. The second one was a no brainer-I would not go for hours and soon timed out. Call me a bad captain. lol oh and in my 5-6 years as a captain, only twice did I ever refuse a jump seater. The first was a crj 200 flight from Billings to MSP with an alternate and I could only take 35 PAX and the second was impossible for landing weight after adding ballast for CG.

 

[1.3XVso]

captains delaying a flight for weather is a bad thing? I just had dispatch try to send me to two different airports with major thunder storms. The first time I agreed to go because it seemed we had plenty of time-which turned into a diversion. The second one was a no brainer-I would not go for hours and soon timed out. Call me a bad captain. lol oh and in my 5-6 years as a captain, only twice did I ever refuse a jump seater. The first was a crj 200 flight from Billings to MSP with an alternate and I could only take 35 PAX and the second was impossible for landing weight after adding ballast for CG.

I said SOME WINNERS. Obviously if the numbers don't work then they don't. Im talking about specific tools that we have. You know the ones that start to breath hard when a master caution dings? Anyway carry on sir.

 

[Flyer1015]

I did have one rather, um, large DTW Mesaba Captain, she turned me down for a jumpseat on a CRJ-200 just by glancing at the paperwork because it said weight restricted. I mean, one could at least go down the jetbridge to the FMS box, type in the fuel load, 51 pax, and cargo numbers and then come up and deny a jumpseat.......

 

[Monster Buck]

We have some real winners here at 9E. Between Captains that can't work the numbers to get a jumpseater on, Captains asking for a alternate with a cloud over the field, Captains delaying flights for WX, FO's who think they are supreme man pilots, FO's from riddle, UND, who in their greeting speach they add " Im a riddle grad" yeah so what. Anyways yeah we have some winners.

It sounds like your jealous that they graduated from a better school than you.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

He's GIA, jealous that they didn't PFT.

 

[Flyer1015]

It sounds like your jealous that they graduated from a better school than you.

Are you seriously defending ERAU?

He's GIA, jealous that they didn't PFT.

ERAU, right. Spending $100,000+ is worth what you could get at a local FBO for $40,000? True, it's not PFT, it's just stupidity.

 

[xjhawk]

I said SOME WINNERS. Obviously if the numbers don't work then they don't. Im talking about specific tools that we have. You know the ones that start to breath hard when a master caution dings? Anyway carry on sir.

I knew what you meant. Some idiots always have a chip on their shoulder, some are just lazy and some are just plain mean. I know the type. I also think a lot of the ones who lack the effort have never commuted. I did for almost a year and it was something I will not forget.

 

[Flyer1015]

I knew what you meant. Some idiots always have a chip on their shoulder, some are just lazy and some are just plain mean. I know the type. I also think a lot of the ones who lack the effort have never commuted. I did for almost a year and it was something I will not forget.

+1 on the commuting comment.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Riddle rats. Love 'em. Spending 200K now on ah, what? They get confused just like the ATP grads in crosswinds.

Have you ever seen one in action when they input the wrong rudder in a 15Kt crosswind? That gets interesting really quickly when they keep putting in more and more and I'm just praying that they'll give up and land on the pavement before the grass.

 

[Monster Buck]

Are you seriously defending ERAU?


ERAU, right. Spending $100,000+ is worth what you could get at a local FBO for $40,000? True, it's not PFT, it's just stupidity.

Please just let 1.3 answer, it was just for him.


Also are you seriously judging an entire university and the reasons someone might want to go there based on your own narrow view of its value? I don't need or intend to "defend ERAU" Its value is considered very high by its grads and that is all that matters.

Many hire ranking Military Officers and Astronauts graduated from there. Even if someone just wants to be a passenger airline pilot, if they like it with everything considered then I say giddy up have at it.

"The same thing you can get at an FBO?"..... not everyone wants the same thing as you in aviation.

 

[Monster Buck]

Riddle rats. Love 'em. Spending 200K now on ah, what? They get confused just like the ATP grads in crosswinds.

Have you ever seen one in action when they input the wrong rudder in a 15Kt crosswind? That gets interesting really quickly when they keep putting in more and more and I'm just praying that they'll give up and land on the pavement before the grass.

No....but I have seen someone look very naive by judging thousands of grads from a entire university based on a few personal exaggerated experiences.

 

[filejw]

captains delaying a flight for weather is a bad thing? I just had dispatch try to send me to two different airports with major thunder storms. The first time I agreed to go because it seemed we had plenty of time-which turned into a diversion. The second one was a no brainer-I would not go for hours and soon timed out. Call me a bad captain. lol oh and in my 5-6 years as a captain, only twice did I ever refuse a jump seater. The first was a crj 200 flight from Billings to MSP with an alternate and I could only take 35 PAX and the second was impossible for landing weight after adding ballast for CG.

I always depart in those situation and just divert if the # work. Never fly into the wx and just head to the alt when gas is gone. Reason ? I always seem to make out pay wise.Only fly international now but sure it would still be beneficial in most cases to my bottom line.

 

[Monster Buck]

Here is the short list to the people that are stupid according to you.
Degree recipients


Alumni Class[2] Notability Biscone, Gregory A. 1993 United States Air Force Brigadier General and Deputy Director of Operations at United States Central Command.[3] Brown, Charles D. 1985 Retired US Air Force Colonel and 2008 candidate for US Congress.[4] Burbank, Daniel C. 1991 American astronaut and US Coast Guard Captain.[5] Charlebois, David 1983 First officer on American Airlines Flight 77 which was hijacked and flown into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001.[6] Currier, John 1998 US Coast Guard Vice Commandant of the Coast Guard.[7] Davis, Kevin 1996 US Navy Lieutenant Commander, Top Gun Graduate, and former F/A-18 Blue Angels Pilot.[8] Doyle, Jerry 1987 American actor and radio talk show host.[9] Drew, Benjamin Alvin 1995 US Air Force Lieutenant Colonel and an American astronaut.[10] Durant, Michael J. 1995 US Army helicopter pilot featured in the film Black Hawk Down.[11] Edozien, Connally 2001 Nigerian football player who currently plays for the Carolina RailHawks FC.[12] Feith, Greg 1996 Retired Senior Air Safety Investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board.[13] Garan Jr., Ronald J. 1995 American astronaut and US Air Force Colonel.[14] Hagedorn, James 1979 Chairman and CEO of Scotts Miracle-Gro and former F-16 fighter pilot.[15] Kilrain, Susan 1982 American astronaut and US Navy Commander.[16] Tinsley, Thomas L. 1984 U.S. Air Force Brigadier General, Commander of the 3rd Wing, F-15C test pilot.[17] Larkins, Jamail 2007 First ambassador for Aviation & Space Education for the Federal Aviation Administration.[18] Magnussen, Karen L. 1997 RollerJam skater and a Junior Olympic speedskating title holder.[19] O'Grady, Scott 1989 US Air Force F-16 pilot who evaded capture after being shot down over Bosnia in 1995, as featured in the film Behind Enemy Lines.[20]

 

[Monster Buck]

cont.

Hitesh Patel 1987 Executive Vice President, Kingfisher Airlines. Paulsen, Kraig 1994 Iowa State Representative and minority whip.[21] al-Rabia, Fouad Mahoud 1988 Prisoner held in extrajudicial detention at the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp without formal charges,[22] Remkes, Robertus C.N. 1987 US Air Force Major General and Director of Strategy, Plans and Policy for the United States European Command.[23] McKeown, Andrew P. 1995 US Army helicopter pilot, Retired Senior Aviator, OH-58D(I) KW, Founding member of TF-118 and recipient of numerous awards and decorations for service and valor in Operations Prime Chance and Earnest Will.[24] Ribas-Dominicci, Fernando L. 1985 US Air Force Major, killed during Operation El Dorado Canyon.[25] Seymour, William[disambiguation needed] 2007 Senior Underwriter at Chartis Insurance.[citation needed] Stalder, Keith J. 1994 United States Marine Corps Lieutenant General.[26] Stott, Nicole P. 1987 American astronaut.[27] Virts, Jr., Terry W. 1997 American astronaut and US Air Force Colonel.[28] Washington, Patrice C. 1982 First African-American captain for a major airline.[29] Weinstein, Jack 1987 US Air Force Major General[30] Wheeler, Robert E. 1995 U.S. Air Force Brigadier General[31] Woodward, Daniel P. 1980 U.S. Air Force Brigadier General and Pilot.[32] Wyckoff, Charles E. 2002 Army Sgt. Recipient of Distinguished Service Cross in Operation Enduring Freedom.[33]
Honorary alumni Honorary degree received[2] Notability Cho Yang-Ho 1998 Chairman and CEO of Korean Air.[34] Baktash Khadem Zaher 1997 Founder and CEO of Paramount Business Jets.[35] Iouse, Andrew P. 1983 Retired United States Air Force four-star general who served as Commander, Air Training Command (COMATC) from 1983 to 1986.[36] Lehman, William 1992 Former U.S. Congressman who attended Embry-Riddle as an aviation maintenance student.[37] Mitchell, Edgar 1996 American astronaut and US Navy Captain.[38] Newton, Lloyd W. 1997 Retired United States Air Force four-star general who served as Commander, Air Education and Training Command (COMAETC) from 1997 to 2000. He was also the first African-American pilot in the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds.[39] Stafford, Thomas Patten 1970 Former American astronaut and retired US Air Force Lieutenant General.[40] Udvar-H?zy, Steven F. 1998 Founder and CEO of International Lease Finance Corporation.[41]

BTW I didn't go to ERAU.

 

[Flyer1015]

Please just let 1.3 answer, it was just for him.


Also are you seriously judging an entire university and the reasons someone might want to go there based on your own narrow view of its value? I don't need or intend to "defend ERAU" Its value is considered very high by its grads and that is all that matters.

Many hire ranking Military Officers and Astronauts graduated from there. Even if someone just wants to be a passenger airline pilot, if they like it with everything considered then I say giddy up have at it.

"The same thing you can get at an FBO?"..... not everyone wants the same thing as you in aviation.

I can understand going to ERAU prior to 9/11. After 9/11, you'd be a real dummy to get a BS in "Aviation Science" aka a worthless degree that won't be any help for a backup plan.

*As a disclaimer, we are talking about pilots at ERAU, which means they usually graduate with either a Bachelor of Aviation Science degree or bachelor of Aviation Management degree. We are not talking about the other programs like Aerospace engineering, since those are usually not associated with the flight training 4-year program.

Is a FBO private pilot any different than a Riddle Private? In the end, they both pass the same checkride. Doing a little research and finding a good FBO would be a much better route than wasting thousands and thousands at Riddle. What's their Cessna 172 fee these days? $170/hr? Not worth it. You are wasting money on a supposed-brand name.

 

[Flyer1015]

You posted that stuff before I had the chance to respond. See my above post. I take it back for those who attended prior to 9/11, as it was a good and reasonably priced school back then, and the industry didn't really require a back up degree like it does today.

 

[Monster Buck]

Geese flyer, again that's your value system for you. Try to make the paradigm shift and look at it different. Some people can sh!t 100k and not blink twice. My brother in law is one of them, if his kid likes the ERAU product guess what he goes there. We all get that if you are looking for just fbo tickets ERAU is not for you. Riddle has very good professors and you can come out with much more aeronautical knowledge from a U like that. Some people actually enjoy and want that. They are proud to have a top school as their Alma mater. Just like you are proud to work at VA, that's a good thing. That's my point, not everyone is just looking for a cheap way to get licenses. A great many on this forum just got in for the money, its not that way for everyone. Contrary to popular belief we don't all do this for the same reasons.

 

[mesaba13]

Not trying to flame but I would be interested to know what each of these select individuals listed received their degrees in. I would bet that the list would read: Engineering, Physics, etc. instead of BS in Aviation Sciences.

I just clicked on three different people on the list and not one received their undergraduate from Riddle. Two of them were US Air Force Academy Graduates and the other was from Carnegie Mellon. Some got a masters from Riddle while other received Honorary degrees, meaning they never set foot on the ERAU campus.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Not trying to flame but I would be interested to know what each of these select individuals listed received their degrees in. I would bet that the list would read: Engineering, Physics, etc. instead of BS in Aviation Sciences.

I had friends in school in Engineering Physics, they didn't have a whole lot of time for flying (or anything). Example: poor a glass of water on your countertop, now express that as an equation, now derive that equation. Great, if you can do that you'll have the foundation to learn at the course level 3 classes. Remember, those level 4 classes won't be quite so easy kids, so enjoy this easy stuff while you can.

 

[Flyer1015]

Geese flyer, again that's your value system for you. Try to make the paradigm shift and look at it different. Some people can sh!t 100k and not blink twice. My brother in law is one of them, if his kid likes the ERAU product guess what he goes there. We all get that if you are looking for just fbo tickets ERAU is not for you. Riddle has very good professors and you can come out with much more aeronautical knowledge from a U like that. Some people actually enjoy and want that. They are proud to have a top school as their Alma mater. Just like you are proud to work at VA, that's a good thing. That's my point, not everyone is just looking for a cheap way to get licenses. A great many on this forum just got in for the money, its not that way for everyone. Contrary to popular belief we don't all do this for the same reasons.

One can go to Riddle for a degree, but you'd be a fool to spend the money that they charge to rent their own airplanes! What's the difference between their aircraft and a FBO aircraft? At least a good 40-100+/hr. How about instructor fees. How much is Riddle? Probably another 70-80/hr.

Why would you take on that much debt to start at a regional paying $24k the first year?

I personally know two Riddle grads, one at Mesa, still stuck there and he cannot pay for this ERAU loans on RJ FO salary. His wife helps him, and from talking to him, he has said it was the biggest mistake of his life.

Bernoulli's principle will work the same for you when you fly a Cessna 152 out of a FBO as it would out of the ERAU ramp.

 

[Flyer1015]

Some people can sh!t 100k and not blink twice. My brother in law is one of them, if his kid likes the ERAU product guess what he goes there.

Then more power to them. Enjoy the predominantly more male college, what's the term? Sausage fest? I digress. He'd be much better going to a state school and flying out of a local airport. For example, going to Penn State university if you live in PA, and flying out of SCE (KUNV) on your own time.

If he really can "s**t" 100k and not look twice, then throw it in a retirement fund because by the time Obambi is done with this country, you won't have any government programs left after they all crash and burn. Or put that in a fund he can have his son draw out of on 1st and 2nd year RJ salary.

As for those honorary type people you quoted, how many of them did ERAU for a masters, PHd, and/or for engineering degrees? And how many of them actually did the flight school program? It's a moot point, because back in the 80s and 90s, flying was actually affordable. Today, at ERAU, it's highway robbery for flying costs.

Most importantly, if you are entering the piloting profession, you need a good backup. There are two main reasons, if you lose a medical, or get long-term furlough. In either case, you need a good backup to continue making money and providing for your family. In case of ERAU for the PILOT program:

Aeronautical ScienceAeronautical Science, the professional pilot program at Embry-Riddle, offers the most advanced flight training curriculum of any university in the world.

Just what do you think a bachelor degree in "Aeronautical Science" is going to provide as a backup? What job can you reach out and obtain with a bachelor in "aviation science." Good luck in that. I've personally flown with ERAU graduates who openly tell me their aviation science degree isn't worth squat*. (* a nicer "s" word inserted, use your imagination for what they really said).

 

[jynxyjericho]

Just what do you think a bachelor degree in "Aeronautical Science" is going to provide as a backup?

For me?
Aircraft dispatch (minor, just had to pass the checkride)
Aircraft certification EMI technician
Operations Management
plus the CFI'ing bit

Anyway. I'm sure others can illuminate us.

 

[Kaman]

Hey Joe,
How you been? Gotta get together for some BBQ one of these days...

 

[Flyer1015]

For me?
Aircraft dispatch (minor, just had to pass the checkride)
Aircraft certification EMI technician
Operations Management
plus the CFI'ing bit

Anyway. I'm sure others can illuminate us.

None of these require a college degree, with the exception of a management position. Face it, it's a useless degree.

 

[JumpersAway]

None of these require a college degree, with the exception of a management position. Face it, it's a useless degree.

Frankly, just about any degree you graduate with now is useless- except with something health or medical based. The economy treading water, and college graduates are having quite a bit of difficulty obtaining employment pertinent to their majors, across the board.