New Pinnacle Management team

[JumpersAway]

Wow, probabtionary pay, Big deal. Again why did your union not stand up and refuse to take our airframes on these principles you hold so dear?

We didn't take squat- they were allocated to us by DAL.

 

[Flyer1015]

Grow up, the choice was shutdown or don't and 85% of us said don't.

What happened to all those STFD stickers? 99%? Management always knew that was all tough talk crap, and that the group would never STFD. How can you really believe an airline's viability, its business model, is all dependant on pilot concessions, otherwise shutdown? You should have voted no and called them out on it. Now Delta thinks, we know they are scared and want their jobs. When we wholly own them, we'll ask for round 2, and they'll cave in.

And yes you bring up other BKs but in a majority of those cases, a BK judge imposed the contract terms. Here, you voluntarily accepted concessions by voting yes. And yes, the 'pay my mortgage' is the exact same reason a scab gives. You aren't scabs, but you can't talk smack for the reason a pilot chooses to scab: same as your reasons to pay mortgage, bills, and put food on the table.

 

[Flyer1015]

Wow, probabtionary pay, Big deal. Again why did your union not stand up and refuse to take our airframes on these principles you hold so dear?

Did 9E's MEC refuse to take the 16 ATL CRJ-900s while ASA was displacing and downgrading their pilots, circa 2007?

 

[mesaba13]

But were the 9e guys calling the Asa guys scabs as 9e was taking those airframes?

 

[Flyer1015]

But were the 9e guys calling the Asa guys scabs as 9e was taking those airframes?

I'm not calling you a scab, no picket lines were crossed. But the reasoning given for voting yes are the same as a scab gives: pay mortgage, bills, food on the table.

 

[jynxyjericho]

What happened to all those STFD stickers? 99%? Management always knew that was all tough talk crap, and that the group would never STFD. How can you really believe an airline's viability, its business model, is all dependant on pilot concessions, otherwise shutdown? You should have voted no and called them out on it. Now Delta thinks, we know they are scared and want their jobs. When we wholly own them, we'll ask for round 2, and they'll cave in.

And yes you bring up other BKs but in a majority of those cases, a BK judge imposed the contract terms. Here, you voluntarily accepted concessions by voting yes. And yes, the 'pay my mortgage' is the exact same reason a scab gives. You aren't scabs, but you can't talk smack for the reason a pilot chooses to scab: same as your reasons to pay mortgage, bills, and put food on the table.

Again you're rambling, I'm not going to take time to multi-quote.
1. 99% was one of 3 pilot groups. That pilot group had every pilot advantage in the world and got themselves parked by the NMB. They weren't the only ones voting. Also, most of those people are still here and most of them voted for the TA for the BK. I don't know man, maybe you are the dumb one here just this once not being able to reason because you are slighted against a pilot group that hates you and always will.

2. There's that belief word you throw around. First, Pinnacle's own Phildo the dildo bought Colgan which didn't make any money, then got a bunch of Q-400 contracts which made no profit unless the manufacturer took up the entire repair bill, a building they couldn't afford, and a wholly owned subsidiary they didn't know anything about who was parking every Saab it had. As he said, "Growth is good and everything get's easier when you are bigger." It turns out that was all crap and those decisions led us to chapter 11. Secondly, every creditor (I suppose you could say "except Delta") took a hit including the pilots; hotels to pilots and MX and lessors and beyond. The business was only viable with DIP financing from Delta. Delta wanted a return on it's investment (crazy I know but you can't tell these investors anything) and that meant crushing every employee and contract that pinnacle had out into dust, just ask the city of Memphis. You choose to focus on one piece of the puzzle because that's all you can keep in that head of yours. That's fine but what you highlight isn't the only fact and it wasn't what kept the business afloat.

3. So your supposition is that Delta will file again for BK to force concessions? No, that would be bizarre even for you. You are saying they will offer us more planes if only we'll take another paycut? Sure, they say that every time. I would imagine the pilot group is a little hung over after the last vote and they should try pulling that card 3-4 years from now when everyone here is gone and the new hires will be the old men of the seniority list. In short I can't answer for the pilot group as a whole, in fact I myself am not going to answer every half baked- made up scenario you can wind yourself up on. Get meds.

4. Wait wait wait. Now I get it you are uninformed but Mesaba's BK terms, the only ones I mentioned and that you quoted, were an agreed upon rate (not forced). They were the skeleton of the JCBA and they brought up the pay of Colgan and Pinnacle pilots with the JCBA. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, but maybe you should try researching before you write. Mesaba could hold out the last time because MAIR had 100's of millions of the money Mesaba made to continue filling 1113c after 1113c. When we won at the first 1113 filing Delta said they were done throwing good money in after bad. They did their best to force that 2nd ask on us and they failed, but that didn't mean we won the war. Negotiations went by quickly and rough, but neither side got everything they wanted. Our committee did the best they could and I'm not going to let you rewrite history because it makes trolling easier for you. We weren't going to make it to the next brief to the judge, the winddown plan was written, and it didn't include going to the judge plus a couple million more on lawyers to try and force an ask they were already told was unfair... never mind the judge told them they were bargaining in bad faith. Pinnacle is a regional, like many, and nothing makes us special when we have no money in the bank.

5. " And yes, the 'pay my mortgage' is the exact same reason a scab gives. You aren't scabs, but you can't talk smack for the reason a pilot chooses to scab: same as your reasons to pay mortgage, bills, and put food on the table." What is this babble? It's like you took a logical argument, a logical equation, tossed it in the blender, then dumped it on the keyboard and hoped for the best. The scab makes up a number of otherwise legitimate excuses to cross a picket line. You're trying to say that because a scab uses a reason we use to rationalize a paycut, that we can't use that reasoning ever for anything? No stupid, the scab can't use the justification because scabbing is unjustifiable. The scab also can't use, "because my kids are in college, because my mom is deadly sick, and because I'm like two months from retiring and I can't take the walk." He also can't use the "I really didn't keep up guys... were we not suppose to come to work today?" How exactly do YOU justify flushing everyone's reasons for a paycut, when you do it by ignoring facts and making up stuff as you go along? Your objections would be much more interesting to me if they weren't so full of self serving crap.

 

[Flyer1015]

Again you're rambling, I'm not going to take time to multi-quote.
1. 99% was one of 3 pilot groups. That pilot group had every pilot advantage in the world and got themselves parked by the NMB. They weren't the only ones voting. Also, most of those people are still here and most of them voted for the TA for the BK. I don't know man, maybe you are the dumb one here just this once not being able to reason because you are slighted against a pilot group that hates you and always will.

Oh I remember the XJ and 9L committees refusing to do informational picketing outside MEM headquarters with 9E. This was back when the JCBA was still in negotiatins. As for your hatred comment, it is YOU and a couple of your friends with the maturity level of high school freshman who go and stalk on Facebook. You are a creep.

2. There's that belief word you throw around. First, Pinnacle's own Phildo the dildo bought Colgan which didn't make any money, then got a bunch of Q-400 contracts which made no profit unless the manufacturer took up the entire repair bill, a building they couldn't afford, and a wholly owned subsidiary they didn't know anything about who was parking every Saab it had. As he said, "Growth is good and everything get's easier when you are bigger." It turns out that was all crap and those decisions led us to chapter 11. Secondly, every creditor (I suppose you could say "except Delta") took a hit including the pilots; hotels to pilots and MX and lessors and beyond. The business was only viable with DIP financing from Delta. Delta wanted a return on it's investment (crazy I know but you can't tell these investors anything) and that meant crushing every employee and contract that pinnacle had out into dust, just ask the city of Memphis. You choose to focus on one piece of the puzzle because that's all you can keep in that head of yours. That's fine but what you highlight isn't the only fact and it wasn't what kept the business afloat.

Are you blind? Phildo knew exactly what he was doing with the Colgan purchase. His goal was to break the backs of a union carrier, ALPA 9E, by buying a non-union airline, Colgan. Next, he grew Colgan while downgrading and displacing 9E pilots who were deep in contract negotiations. He got EXACTLY what he wanted out of Colgan! As for Mesaba, you're right, buying an airline that is parking 40% of its fleet (the Saabs) was a stupid thing to do. And yes, what was said is true, that without pilot concessions, 9E would wind down with other airlines alread selected. These were Delta's words, a threat, a bluff they attempted to see who would fall for it. I can't win an argument with a 'yes' voter, so no point in trying.

3. So your supposition is that Delta will file again for BK to force concessions? No, that would be bizarre even for you. You are saying they will offer us more planes if only we'll take another paycut? Sure, they say that every time. I would imagine the pilot group is a little hung over after the last vote and they should try pulling that card 3-4 years from now when everyone here is gone and the new hires will be the old men of the seniority list. In short I can't answer for the pilot group as a whole, in fact I myself am not going to answer every half baked- made up scenario you can wind yourself up on. Get meds.

I'm saying Delta can do basically whatever it wants once you're wholly owned. Ask Comair pilots. As long as someone can do it cheaper, you will always stand to lose. "Made up" scenario? You mean like the "made up" scenario that Delta would shut you down unless you voted yes to pilot concessions? 85% were too afraid of that made up scenario they voted yes. Until it happens, it's just a threat and a "made up" scenario. You can expect more "made up" scenarios once you're wholly owned - count on it.

4. Wait wait wait. Now I get it you are uninformed but Mesaba's BK terms, the only ones I mentioned and that you quoted, were an agreed upon rate (not forced). They were the skeleton of the JCBA and they brought up the pay of Colgan and Pinnacle pilots with the JCBA. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, but maybe you should try researching before you write. Mesaba could hold out the last time because MAIR had 100's of millions of the money Mesaba made to continue filling 1113c after 1113c. When we won at the first 1113 filing Delta said they were done throwing good money in after bad. They did their best to force that 2nd ask on us and they failed, but that didn't mean we won the war. Negotiations went by quickly and rough, but neither side got everything they wanted. Our committee did the best they could and I'm not going to let you rewrite history because it makes trolling easier for you. We weren't going to make it to the next brief to the judge, the winddown plan was written, and it didn't include going to the judge plus a couple million more on lawyers to try and force an ask they were already told was unfair... never mind the judge told them they were bargaining in bad faith. Pinnacle is a regional, like many, and nothing makes us special when we have no money in the bank.

I wasn't talking about the XJ bankruptcy. I was referring to the industry BKcies in which judges forced down pilot concessions. Cases where pilots didn't have a choice.

5. " And yes, the 'pay my mortgage' is the exact same reason a scab gives. You aren't scabs, but you can't talk smack for the reason a pilot chooses to scab: same as your reasons to pay mortgage, bills, and put food on the table." What is this babble? It's like you took a logical argument, a logical equation, tossed it in the blender, then dumped it on the keyboard and hoped for the best. The scab makes up a number of otherwise legitimate excuses to cross a picket line. You're trying to say that because a scab uses a reason we use to rationalize a paycut, that we can't use that reasoning ever for anything? No stupid, the scab can't use the justification because scabbing is unjustifiable. The scab also can't use, "because my kids are in college, because my mom is deadly sick, and because I'm like two months from retiring and I can't take the walk." He also can't use the "I really didn't keep up guys... were we not suppose to come to work today?" How exactly do YOU justify flushing everyone's reasons for a paycut, when you do it by ignoring facts and making up stuff as you go along? Your objections would be much more interesting to me if they weren't so full of self serving crap.

What's this babble? My question has been where is the line drawn? Your reasonings for voting yes are paying mortgage, bills, and food on table. You can do that for $70/hr. Could be done with $60/hr? How about $50/hr? Where do you draw the line? If Delta had said topped out FOs at $30/hr and CAs at $50/hr, it would still have passed. It's obvious (I would hope) that if there was a strike and a picket line, no one would cross it DESPITE having to pay mortgage, bills, and food on table. Because that's a fine line you just don't cross. I hope that's right? My point was your reasonings for voting yes to paycuts sound awful like what a scab reasons with. And the second point, where do you draw the line? Just how much is too much?

 

[SEVEN]

Oh I remember the XJ and 9L committees refusing to do informational picketing outside MEM headquarters with 9E. This was back when the JCBA was still in negotiatins. As for your hatred comment, it is YOU and a couple of your friends with the maturity level of high school freshman who go and stalk on Facebook. You are a creep.


Are you blind? Phildo knew exactly what he was doing with the Colgan purchase. His goal was to break the backs of a union carrier, ALPA 9E, by buying a non-union airline, Colgan. Next, he grew Colgan while downgrading and displacing 9E pilots who were deep in contract negotiations. He got EXACTLY what he wanted out of Colgan! As for Mesaba, you're right, buying an airline that is parking 40% of its fleet (the Saabs) was a stupid thing to do. And yes, what was said is true, that without pilot concessions, 9E would wind down with other airlines alread selected. These were Delta's words, a threat, a bluff they attempted to see who would fall for it. I can't win an argument with a 'yes' voter, so no point in trying.


I'm saying Delta can do basically whatever it wants once you're wholly owned. Ask Comair pilots. As long as someone can do it cheaper, you will always stand to lose. "Made up" scenario? You mean like the "made up" scenario that Delta would shut you down unless you voted yes to pilot concessions? 85% were too afraid of that made up scenario they voted yes. Until it happens, it's just a threat and a "made up" scenario. You can expect more "made up" scenarios once you're wholly owned - count on it.


I wasn't talking about the XJ bankruptcy. I was referring to the industry BKcies in which judges forced down pilot concessions. Cases where pilots didn't have a choice.


What's this babble? My question has been where is the line drawn? Your reasonings for voting yes are paying mortgage, bills, and food on table. You can do that for $70/hr. Could be done with $60/hr? How about $50/hr? Where do you draw the line? If Delta had said topped out FOs at $30/hr and CAs at $50/hr, it would still have passed. It's obvious (I would hope) that if there was a strike and a picket line, no one would cross it DESPITE having to pay mortgage, bills, and food on table. Because that's a fine line you just don't cross. I hope that's right? My point was your reasonings for voting yes to paycuts sound awful like what a scab reasons with. And the second point, where do you draw the line? Just how much is too much?

That is my point as well. When do you vote NO. For me, this was way to crappy to support. What is sad is that many CA and FO's would have passed language that was much lower. I still believe DAL would not have shut our doors with a NO majority. They would have only asked the judge to impose it anyway. But, caving in to fear is why it passed. Too bad.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What happened to all those STFD stickers? 99%? Management always knew that was all tough talk crap, and that the group would never STFD. How can you really believe an airline's viability, its business model, is all dependant on pilot concessions, otherwise shutdown? You should have voted no and called them out on it. Now Delta thinks, we know they are scared and want their jobs. When we wholly own them, we'll ask for round 2, and they'll cave in.

And yes you bring up other BKs but in a majority of those cases, a BK judge imposed the contract terms. Here, you voluntarily accepted concessions by voting yes. And yes, the 'pay my mortgage' is the exact same reason a scab gives. You aren't scabs, but you can't talk smack for the reason a pilot chooses to scab: same as your reasons to pay mortgage, bills, and put food on the table.

AKA Comair all over again.. and it will end the same without the bonuses

 

[mesaba13]

And letting the judge impose would be better?