General Lee
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New Emirates order....
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No we are not, I am ex NWA , he is DL
I am DTW on the Bus, he is in ATL 76
I am on the left seat, he is on the right
I made more money than him..... sorry General
267k which inludes the profit sharing and B fund
no housing $$$$ from DL
ps
FT3
General Lee
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BILL LUMBERG
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KarmaPolice
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This pisses me off. EK and NAS are going to beat us out of A LOT of INTL routes in the future. It's naive to think otherwise. Look at the NAS and EK orders. Look at the economic advantage their business model is going to give them.
They hold a clear competitive advantage, and it IS going to go the way of the US shipping industry without government intervention. Ours, and enough other governments have proven they will prioritize global competition and consumers over protection of domestic labor groups. PERIOD.
Maybe countries like Germany and Austria fought back against EK, but it is going to be a lot different with NAS, an EU corporation. It's insane to think that governments will stop economic market forces at play like this, when in the past, the opposite has always happened.
It makes sense the senior guys aren't worried about this as much because it won't really be an issue until 10-20 years from now when NAS and EK have more wide bodies than all US carriers combined.
What is BS is Expats coming on here and bragging about their corporation and superior product. We get it. We know. In the UAE you can fire fat b***ty FA's whereas we can't here because of labor laws. You can hire airplane cleaners for one dollar an hour from India and chop their knads off if they don't get it perfectly clean. And ON and ON.
Ex-pats working for these overseas carriers... Take a look at Detroit and witness what you are helping do to the economy and people of your homeland. I get why you do it, a big online bank account balance is nice to look at isn't it? (not that I know) But gloating over it? total bs. Just leave and let us here in the States deal with this S*** sandwich.
They hold a clear competitive advantage, and it IS going to go the way of the US shipping industry without government intervention. Ours, and enough other governments have proven they will prioritize global competition and consumers over protection of domestic labor groups. PERIOD.
Maybe countries like Germany and Austria fought back against EK, but it is going to be a lot different with NAS, an EU corporation. It's insane to think that governments will stop economic market forces at play like this, when in the past, the opposite has always happened.
It makes sense the senior guys aren't worried about this as much because it won't really be an issue until 10-20 years from now when NAS and EK have more wide bodies than all US carriers combined.
What is BS is Expats coming on here and bragging about their corporation and superior product. We get it. We know. In the UAE you can fire fat b***ty FA's whereas we can't here because of labor laws. You can hire airplane cleaners for one dollar an hour from India and chop their knads off if they don't get it perfectly clean. And ON and ON.
Ex-pats working for these overseas carriers... Take a look at Detroit and witness what you are helping do to the economy and people of your homeland. I get why you do it, a big online bank account balance is nice to look at isn't it? (not that I know) But gloating over it? total bs. Just leave and let us here in the States deal with this S*** sandwich.
Dumb Pilot
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yellowfever
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For US legacy airlines, the US government is your worst enemy! The politicians love the low hanging fruit!
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/26/business/la-fi-travel-briefcase-20130527
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/26/business/la-fi-travel-briefcase-20130527
Once again purely thinking about yourself.
How is Boeing going to do if the US protects US airlines. All the airlines have proven that regardless of the chest thumping they do about Protecting American jobs - they will still go running off to France to spend billions. Do you not remember "Freedom Fries"
EK is good for American jobs...maybe not your job.
Talk to your mgt about buying American before you pontificate on here about patriotism.
fv
Why don't you list the pay rates of the non pilot employees? Is it true that dispatchers are paid $180 per month? You do have a low cost competitive advantage, but I wan't the details from the horses mouth. Anybody can expand and grow in your environment. Lets see......Low cost labor, cheap capital loans, maybe even cheaper fuel?
He will be making LHS on a wide body, eventually.....
Dalad,
We are not saying that we are not taking advantage of lower labor costs. It's not my fault that the labor demand/supply curve are at lower multiples here than there.
Corporate America takes full advantage of that. Do you think iPads are made in Seattle? Our freighters are full of high end American electronics and fashion goods coming out of China & Bangladesh.
But that's okay because it doesn't involve DAL? I mean do you not see the trend here? The hypocrisy.
The reason the Gulf3 are changing global aviation is simply GEOGRAPHIC.
We are in the middle of the great trade routes of the world whereby everyone can connect with one stop. That's just not an advantage the US enjoys. I wish it were - truly I do. But reality is reality.
AA's mgt were quick to figure it out. I personally think that will have serious long term consequences for EK. It's fundamentally a great tie -up. (QR just announced MIA -huge LATAM feed) The Majors just cannot cover this part of the world like we do and we cannot cover the worlds largest market in $ terms - the US.
I believe Etihad will probably end up with DAL at which point UA will have tough choices to make.
Both DAL & UA mgt have strongly voiced their misgivings but don't think there is no conversation going on in both boardrooms "But what if they go with EK? Where are we left?"
EK is the golden goose for either & either would be golden for EK - first mover wins.
Because believe you me - the institutional shareholders of the one left behind are going to ask the CEO "why the f*** didn't we do that?"
fv
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8sugarsugar
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Dispatchers no
But the low skill ground handlers take home about $200-300/month. Free food, free house, free transportation, no expenses. All that money goes home to pakistan and india. Considering the bottom 50% of the world population lives on a dollar a day, its a good deal.
Looks horrible from an American perspective, but how many American are able save $300/month?
So what to do??? tell Emirates they can't buy American Boeing 777's until they pay their unskilled laborers the same as Delta does in Atlanta?
Ask Delta what they pay their ground staff in Dakar or Lagos? I would guess its lower than what Emirates pays ground staff in Dubai.
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8sugarsugar
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I've said this a million times. The first major to strike a deal with Emirates will win.
Sniper/General Lee, ever read the book, "Who moved my cheese?"
The only thing you can bet on in aviation is change.
Good to see that the ME has improved its treatment of unskilled labor since the last time I was there. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/05/201352375248751541.html
Hopefully the Gulf3 will take over all of the world's flying so all airline pilots will have the opportunity to live in the ME. Every airline pilot deserves to live in Jahannam on earth. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dubai-hell-tortured-thrown-jail-2122678
Hopefully the Gulf3 will take over all of the world's flying so all airline pilots will have the opportunity to live in the ME. Every airline pilot deserves to live in Jahannam on earth. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dubai-hell-tortured-thrown-jail-2122678
Furloughed80
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Indeed. I seem to remember being told that JetAirways was going to take over the world. Or at least my [US] job.
Andy,
Totally agree. Indefensible & disgraceful.
As was invading Iraq.
Still, it's a lot better in the UAE than Saudi & Qatar.
Deltas code share - Saudia
AA's - Qatar.
Way to stay principled
fv
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Which time invading Iraq was indefensible? Gulf War I, when they invaded Kuwait and Bush Jr had too many female parts to finish the job? Gulf War II, where Saddam, his family, and his henchmen still used woodchippers (among other forms of torture) on prisoners?
Spare me the sanctimonious BS; Saddam ruled through brutality. The only difference between the rest of the ME rulers is shades of grey. I dare you to kiss your wife in public in Dubai.
I've been to Saudi, Qatar, UAE. I saw very little difference in the treatment of TCNs in Qatar and the UAE. By the way, you're also a TCN - just paid more than the unskilled labor that work there.
You guys can choose to ignore the inhuman treatment of unskilled labor in the UAE as many have done here. Or you can say that they've got it better in the UAE than back home. Whatever. I've visited some of the 'free housing' that's given to these people in Qatar and the UAE. Dogs are treated better in the US.
Enjoy Jahannam.
The second one Sherlock. The UAE were fighting beside us in the first.
No one chooses to ignore the inhuman treatment of workers. That's not what this thread is about but seems to be the only subject you and others bring up.
If you want to go there...then tell DAL & AAs mgt to call off Saudia & Qatar code shares and stop buying Apple products.
As to torture...Saddam was a psycho we know...but let's not throw stones .
fv
No one chooses to ignore the inhuman treatment of workers. That's not what this thread is about but seems to be the only subject you and others bring up.
If you want to go there...then tell DAL & AAs mgt to call off Saudia & Qatar code shares and stop buying Apple products.
As to torture...Saddam was a psycho we know...but let's not throw stones .
fv
General Lee
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You and your buddies turned this thread into one where Emirates will have total world domination of the skies. And yes, you and others are singing a song where inhuman treatment of workers is less in the UAE than other ME countries - that is utter BS; you and your buds just choose to turn a blind eye to it as long as your masters don't turn their attention to you.
Enjoy Jahannam.
Quote the post where we talk about world domination. The only defense you guys engage in - is the human rights & American jobs tack. But when you peel that onion back - your company's partner is Saudia and you buy French airplanes. Hypocrisy again.
Standing by for quote.
fv
8sugarsugar
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Tim Clark, the CEO of Emirates has said that if Air India/Jet Airways etc got their ******************** together they would put Emirates out of business overnight.
I started on page 1. It took me all the way to post #3, Einstein:
Did you lose 60 IQ points since leaving the US or were you always Simple Jack? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-n_zk7e0ZU
Andy,
I don't think any pilot working for EK ignores the treatment of the laborers in the UAE, Qatar, etc. It's a travesty and is a regular topic of conversation on the flight deck. I took a job here so I guess you could call me a hypocrite, mercenary, whichever.
But would going back to fly in the US make me a righteous world citizen? The US is built on slave labor. I'm not talking about the old days of actual slavery. How many kids suffered to make the clothes you wear every day? Do you have any idea of the conditions for garment workers in Bangladesh, India, and China? Do you use any Apple, HP, Nokia products? So many workers have committed suicide at the chinese plants manufacturing these goods that management at one production facility decided to install a safety net around the building.
16% of the USA population including 20% of total children live in poverty. Over 1 million US children are homeless. There are more Americans on food stamps (47 million) than there are people in Spain. I won't even bother going into the healthcare debate. How many innocent civilians of Pakistan and Yemen have been taken out by drone strikes? Are we at war with Pakistan or Yemen?
Sure there are many problems in the Middle East. Workers are taken advantage of on a regular basis. But EK pilots aren't the only ones turning a blind eye to what is going on in their country of employment. Once you start buying locally made clothes, electronics, and food then you can claim the higher ground Andy. Until then you are no better than any American who chooses to work in the Middle East.
I think the major lesson is that unchecked capitalism leaves a trail of human misery.
I don't think any pilot working for EK ignores the treatment of the laborers in the UAE, Qatar, etc. It's a travesty and is a regular topic of conversation on the flight deck. I took a job here so I guess you could call me a hypocrite, mercenary, whichever.
But would going back to fly in the US make me a righteous world citizen? The US is built on slave labor. I'm not talking about the old days of actual slavery. How many kids suffered to make the clothes you wear every day? Do you have any idea of the conditions for garment workers in Bangladesh, India, and China? Do you use any Apple, HP, Nokia products? So many workers have committed suicide at the chinese plants manufacturing these goods that management at one production facility decided to install a safety net around the building.
16% of the USA population including 20% of total children live in poverty. Over 1 million US children are homeless. There are more Americans on food stamps (47 million) than there are people in Spain. I won't even bother going into the healthcare debate. How many innocent civilians of Pakistan and Yemen have been taken out by drone strikes? Are we at war with Pakistan or Yemen?
Sure there are many problems in the Middle East. Workers are taken advantage of on a regular basis. But EK pilots aren't the only ones turning a blind eye to what is going on in their country of employment. Once you start buying locally made clothes, electronics, and food then you can claim the higher ground Andy. Until then you are no better than any American who chooses to work in the Middle East.
I think the major lesson is that unchecked capitalism leaves a trail of human misery.
You won't find any American pilots at EK who think we are better than DAL, UAL, brand xyz pilots. I've flown with many ex NWA, USAir, AA, UAL, DAL, and others. Some want to go back others want to stay.
The Americans working here have weighed the pros and cons and decided that for now working in Dubai provides them a better opportunity than back home. Maybe they are wrong, who knows? Who gives a sh#t? It would be nice if pilots worldwide worked together to make the profession better for all instead of bickering about who has it better. My $.02
The Americans working here have weighed the pros and cons and decided that for now working in Dubai provides them a better opportunity than back home. Maybe they are wrong, who knows? Who gives a sh#t? It would be nice if pilots worldwide worked together to make the profession better for all instead of bickering about who has it better. My $.02
8sugarsugar
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you and your buddies turn this thread into 100% hypocrisy and half truths. All I do is correct Sniper/General Lee's vast misconceptions and exaggerations.
If you were to create an image of living in Dubai from you and your buddies, I would paint a picture of overcrowded jails and mass gang-rapes with no consequences. However, my first hand experience is that Dubai is the safest city I have ever lived in. A first hand experience that General Lee et al, do not have.
back on topic..
Instead of getting insulted by my comments, take them as warnings. Delta/United cannot compete against the Emirates product and never will. So be offended by that absolute truth.
There is a major shift in power in global aviation. One World, Skyteam and Star alliance are crumbling. New alliances are being formed, (ie. Emirates/Qantas/Jet Blue/Virgin America/Alaska)
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flyboyike
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They never will, because they don't seem to want to. Or, more correctly, they're not willing to do what it takes to compete.
General Lee
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Ike,
Age discrimination for certain jobs is illegal. Welcome to America. You can try to offer "early out retirements" and sweetin the pot a bit, but nobody has to take it. Also, when was the last time you have flown on Business Class (Elite) on DL on an INTL flight? I think you'd be surprised. It has improved a lot. Don't put it down if you haven't experienced it. It's probably a lot better than on your E175.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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