New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[Occam's Razor]

The minute the MEC tries to tow the National line here, they will get recalled or worse in a heartbeat.

"Tow the National line"?

Whatta load of hooey!

The MEC isn't standing up and explaining their role in this!

They chose the galactically incompetent Katz. They opted to Press On when negotiation to a compromise would've been a smarter choice. And they REFUSE to step up and tell the pilot group to get over it.

If you're suggesting that the MEC you have now would be the same guys who'd run the show under the USAPA, then it more hopeless there than I thought.

 

[steveg]

Here's the problem in one simple quote from 350 that typifies the Usair pilots:

If the integration had gone DOH or DOS with the appropriate fences around each operation, what would I have received that wasn't mine in the first place?

He was furloughed and did not even bring a job to the merger, yet the attrition was his. I'm constantly surprised by the sense of entitlement.

 

[A350]

steve:

What is meant whe I say what was mine in the first place is when I was recalled, I would end up in a certain career progression and that was my expectation. Just like the AWA folks yelling about a 7 year upgrade and current stagnation as a reason why they should get a better deal in the integration.

My issue with the integration is that I lose things that were in my career expectation and the AWA guys gain things that weren't in their career expectation. And the loss is not an extra year or two in the right seat or flying the widebody, it is a permanent loss.

You brought a job to the merger, but less attrition. Why are you entitled to the attrition?

TWA: DOS with fences is anything but inherently unfair. It would protect each group. That is a two way street.

Occam: Is Katz on the National payroll? The USAPA guys are not the MEC guys.

A350

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA: DOS with fences is anything but inherently unfair. It would protect each group. That is a two way street.

As I've stated over and over, fences don't stop furloughs. The pain of future furloughs must be shared (as Nicolau's relative-seniority solution does) and not come excessively from one side. Did you ever stop for a second and consider that maybe, jut maybe, Nicolau is better qualified to merge pilot's seniority than you? Or me, for that matter?

 

[Soulfly]

TWA,

You just hit on probably the biggest part of the whole fence concept.

FURLOUGHING. Under the AAA MC position, 1500 AWA pilots would be first in line for furlough. In front of a guy that was furloughed well after the merger was complete. Sounds fair..........

I'm sure they would have negotiated with the AWA MC after the fact via the RICE commitee, for some furlough protection for the AWA guys. Hilarious.

 

[Guppiedriver]

steve:

What is meant whe I say what was mine in the first place is when I was recalled, I would end up in a certain career progression and that was my expectation. Just like the AWA folks yelling about a 7 year upgrade and current stagnation as a reason why they should get a better deal in the integration.

My issue with the integration is that I lose things that were in my career expectation and the AWA guys gain things that weren't in their career expectation. And the loss is not an extra year or two in the right seat or flying the widebody, it is a permanent loss.

You brought a job to the merger, but less attrition. Why are you entitled to the attrition?


A350

The seats we brought to the merger were real. The attrition you claim was rightfully yours, was at best a pipe dream. The merger took away our progression, but it gave you a second chance. Nicolau realized this and ensured that the pain be spread out as evenly as possible.

From what I can see, you are way too hung up on your new number. Fact is, you will still be at the same relative spot in PHL or CLT as you would have been, merger or not. Believe it or not, the merger actually accelerated your recall. Without the merger, you were facing many more years on furlough or worse.

Once this mess is settled, the amount of pilots bidding west to east or east to west will be so small, nobody will hardly notice.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam: Is Katz on the National payroll? The USAPA guys are not the MEC guys.

Katz is not on the National payroll. He has been hired by a few misguided Merger Committee's, but not National.

The MEC has an obligation to stop the USAPA.

 

[ultrarunner]

Negotiate an integration and you control at least 50% of the outcome. Send it to arbitration and you control 0%!

WELL SAID. And it's pretty safe to say every east pilot knows that by now!

 

[A350]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

Guppie:

It ain't the number....it is the progression and the end game.

A350

 

[PositiveRate]

You were furloughed. You did not have a job and do not deserve to use anyone on the West as furlough protection.

Spin it however you like, call me whatever names you'd like, but that's the reality. It can't be re-written. The arbitration is done, the list is done, East MEC receivership is near, the contract will be done and at every stage of their losing battle there will be outcry from the East.

I look at you guys like the South. You fight honorably for dishonorable and immoral causes.

I still have hope for the future, but there is nothing we can say on this forum that will change in anyway what was and what will be.

 

[Golden Falcon]

In hindsight wouldn't have been better to let USAirways go out of business and AWA pick the carcass??

 

[Fast43]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

A350

Hey 350 get a clue,

1800 guys were not stapled to the bottom of the list!!! 1800 pilots who did not have a job to bring to the merger were placed at the bottom of the list.

Speaking of returning to AAA from furlough. can you realisticaly tell us when you were comming back, minus the merger???

Why is it so hard for you to see that the recall you have more rapidly enjoyed and the attrition you claim to be your birthright has only been afforded to you because of the merger. To claim that the old AAA was going to continue on to infinity for you to enjoy attrition with out this merger is such a joke.

You state that you will now never hold a widebody seat or something to that effect. Please educate yourself since your MEC won't. The rhetoric that makes those claims is based on "stovepipe bidding" that was used during the Arbitration but in fact has no basis in reality. besides considering how far down your list you guys have to go to fill those seats, it really must not be that big of a deal. Think about it, this summer nobody at AAA wanted a A-330 wide body F/O seat so a recalled furloughee was forced in. Yeah their crawling overthemselves for that seat.

While we're here, just what exactly do you think USAPA will do for you?? Seriously??

 

[Thebadcat1313]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

Guppie:

It ain't the number....it is the progression and the end game.

A350

350,

Historically, when airlines furlough, it's the bottom 20% that have to worry. Not the bottom 500 or the bottom 1800 or 2500. 20%. You need to start thinking in percentage terms instead of numbers. Dave Odell would have easily had 20% below him by now and would not have had to sweat the idea of a furlough absent this merger. To take this away from him, to favor someone who did not bring a job to the table is completely asinine. I don't care if that person got hired in 1997, 1987, 1977 or is Orville F'n Wright. As things stand right now, Dave is still only about 10% from the bottom. He has lost much career progression due to this merger. The next industry downturn has him squarely in its sights when, by all rights he should have plenty of cushion behind him by now.

Kerosene,

Do you really want a fence to keep the west folks out of the east? You talk about protecting the attrition of the east, but if such a fence were to be fair, it would have to give the west pilots credit for their attrition and a percentage of the airlines growth, as well. That would mean that the next 300 or so upgrades would have to go to west pilots. Not to mention the fact that there will be more pilots wanting to come out west than vice-versa. Also, you can't really control where the company puts the flying. So far, it has migrated out east because you do it cheaper out there. Another example of better be careful what you wish for.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

I know you don't. This is why it went to binding arbitration and why you're so unhappy with the result. I don't expect to be able to convince you of the fairness of Nicolau's decision and frankly I shouldn't have to try.

The problem we face today is the AAA MEC failure to accept reality and attempt to end-run around the policy they're bound by. People keep floating around ideas like the AWA MEC should give-in on some fences or something and that'll solve everything. Of course, instead of negotiating as equals the AAA MEC is suing us, fighting a media battle, and implicitly supporting a campaign to replace ALPA purely in the selfish hope of screwing the West. With this gun being held to our head we should appease the East? It's not about Nicolau anymore.

 

[A350]

TWA:

I don't expect the West MEC to do anything, other than represent their pilots, just like I expect the East MEC to do the same.

All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

The growth should be split to both sides of the houses. The attrition should have kept to each side of the aisle. Are you telling me 17% of your list should have upgraded in the past 3 years?

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.

What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.

Like it or not, ALPA needs a wake up call. Maybe this is it.

A350

 

[Green]

TWA:


What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.


A350

.....

 

[Green]

TWA:


What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.


A350

And there you have it. After all this talk of what's right and the union brotherhood, etc it comes down to the East pilots using underhanded tactics to steal upgrades. You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

And there you have it. After all this talk of what's right and the union brotherhood, etc it comes down to the East pilots using underhanded tactics to steal upgrades. You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

Again, don't have a dog in this fight. However, if a US Air (east, I guess you guys call it) Capt. retires, and another US Air (east) guy upgrades to take his place; now not sure, but exact how can that be considered 'stealing upgrades'. If one of your (AWA/west, whatever) guys retires right now, doesn't an AWA guy upgrade to replace him???

How is it exactly 'stealing'??

Just my $0.02, not to interrupt your current rant.

DA

P.S. And, since no one sees a problem with the current alpa merger policy, considering there will be other mergers within the industry; I'm just waiting for the next 'arbritrator' to just decide to put all the names on a slip of paper, put them into a hat; and then just draw names out of the hat, one by one. Sounds crazy, but actually 'totally fair' as everyone has an 'equal chance' of being '#1, #2, etc' and then watching alpa 'defend' the results?? As according the the 'prez' of alpo, an arbritator is totally free to do so. Again, just a thought.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't expect the West MEC to do anything, other than represent their pilots, just like I expect the East MEC to do the same.

I would most certainly NOT expect my MEC to violate policies we're bound by. Your MEC is serving you very poorly and very few amongst the Easties seem to recognize this.

All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

If it's irrelevant than why are there hours of testimony in front of Nicolau convincing him of what each side expected the future to bring? Oh yeah, I forgot, your MEC didn't want you guys to see the hearing transcripts.

The growth should be split to both sides of the houses. The attrition should have kept to each side of the aisle. Are you telling me 17% of your list should have upgraded in the past 3 years?

I'm not telling you anything. See the Nicolau Award if you have any questions.

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.

So too will the East.

I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.

I can only speak for myself on this but as someone who would've loved to have had the TWA/AA integration arbitrated I know I would've accepted the decision come whay may. I know what binding means.

Like it or not, ALPA needs a wake up call. Maybe this is it.

You're right about somebody needing a wake up call but you're mistaken about whom. After this mess is over the EC will likely try to fix the gaps in the Merger Policy that allowed the East to make a mockery of it.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm just waiting for the next 'arbritrator' to just decide to put all the names on a slip of paper, put them into a hat; and then just draw names out of the hat, one by one.

Do you think these arbitrators come out of thin air? Here's Nicolau's cv: http://www.nmb.gov/arbitrator-resumes/nicolau-george-gn_res.pdf

There's only a handful of arbitrator's in the country qualified to do an integration this big. I think there were five names on the strike-out list to choose from. Nicolau was number three on each MEC's list. In other words, he wasn't a kook before he ruled and it's specious to claim he's a kook now. Don't take my word for; just read what the two pilot neutrals had to say about him. Arbitrators wield an enormous amount of power and are pretty much never overridden. Both sides know this going into arbitration so there's no use crying over spilled milk.