New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[Soulfly]

PCL said,

"Why can't you guys just admit that your own MEC fu&^ed this up by allowing it to go to arbitration? This can't be said enough"

Thats just part of it. Their argument for DOH/LOS would have stapled over 1500 AWA pilots to the bottom. And that was their intention. After years of being screwed by their management, they were looking for a little retrabution. Ahh, AmericaWest pilots, Perfect.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Thats just part of it. Their argument for DOH/LOS would have stapled over 1500 AWA pilots to the bottom. And that was their intention. After years of being screwed by their management, they were looking for a little retrabution. Ahh, AmericaWest pilots, Perfect.

Not so fast. I quaffed with many AAA pilots during this whole process. I never got the impression that their goal was to "screw" anybody...least of all, AWA pilots. My take is they HAVE been screwed by unscrupulous dorks over the past few years, and chose this issue to "dig in their heels". They clung to a parochial perspective that didn't consider the chance that an arbitrator wouldn't see things their way.

I think it was misguided. Negotiate an integration and you control at least 50% of the outcome. Send it to arbitration and you control 0%!

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Yep....

 

[Soulfly]

Occam, I don't disagree with your last point.

I never said the AAA Pilots were attempting to screw the AWA pilots. Re-read my post, I never said that.
I know they have been bent over, hard. I flew with quite a few of these guys J4J. Heard it first hand, never lived it, never walked a day in their shoes.

Although based on their LOS position, which was their position. They wanted to put furloughed pilots in front of current captains at AWA. The lawsuits that have been filed against our MEC Chairman are unbelievable. He didn't issue the decision.

Peace....

 

[Occam's Razor]

I never said the AAA Pilots were attempting to screw the AWA pilots. Re-read my post, I never said that.

Hmmm.

Here's what you posted:

"After years of being screwed by their management, they were looking for a little retrabution. Ahh, AmericaWest pilots, Perfect."

It kinda read like that to me.

My bad, I guess.

 

[TWA Dude]

The process is flawed because it can get to a neutral,

In addition to what others have stated, I'll simply add that a)you state that it's a flawed process yet you don't suggest any other less flawed way to do it and b)nobody complained about the process being flawed before Nicolau went off to make his decision. Nobody complained about Nic being too old and senile either.

...that they now claim doesn't have to abide by ALPA merger policy.

Nicolau clearly stated that he felt he was following Policy and the Executive Council (effectively, a jury of our peers) found no impropriety. Do you really think any judge will disagree with an arbitrator? Why is the AAA MEC still pursuing that dead-end?

I am one of many who lost that kind of seniority. Did any of the AWA group lose that kind of seniority?

Nicolau cleary explained his interpretation of "career expectations" and ruled accordingly.

I wish you guys the best. Whether or not you know it, you won't find a better group than the East pilots. You just haven't seen their good side yet.

When I flew for Chautauqua I held the USAir guys in the highest esteem. I continue to believe that pilots at different airlines are all basically the same. Sometimes the radicals are in control, sometimes the moderates are. I wish you the best as well.

 

[A350]

TWA Dude:

What I mean when I say ALPA policy is flawed, is the fact it contains nebulous wording in its policy...wording that cannot possibly be nailed down with any certainty. Now you have Prater running around saying the arbitrator doesn't have to follow ALPA merger policy. I call BS on that one. How can he run around saying that, when the expectation of all involved was that policy was followed. My version of how mergers should go together has been well talked about on these threads. I believe DOS or years of service is the only way. Someday, you may feel that way when you are merging with a younger pilot group.

Soulfly, being stapled to the bottom of a list isn't the end of the world....if fences are put in place to protect what you bring to the table. No East pilot had any intention of bumping anyone out of their seat. That is just crew room fuel for the fire. If the proper fences would have been put in place, whether the list turned out DOH, DOS, or the current list, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Occam: Katz? They guy they gave $1 mil for helping the U pilots negotiate their first BK offering? You're kidding, right?

A350

 

[Fast43]

TWA:

I can't promise there won't be a furlough....but I can guarantee that the airline won't survive a furlough that gets to an AWA pilot the way the seniority integration went.

I am over it as I will no longer be on the list. Most of the reason for not returning is the seniority integration. I lost more than I can ever regain by returning.

The East pilots, by delaying the joint contract and hoping for USAPA are only doing one thing....delaying the seniority itegration. Every East pilot that upgrades is a success story in keeping the attrition where it belongs. It is in effect, a fence.

The USAPA drive is sending ALPA a message. They ignore their membership at their peril. Don't think this is the end of these mergers and the tricky notion of putting pilot seniority lists together. It is the beginning. ALPA needs to put a process together that they take responsibility for, not giving it to a third party and then acting like it isn't their fault when it goes awry.

A350

Good luck to the Employer that hired you!!!

Thankfully we will be better off without you!!

 

[Fast43]

TWA Dude:

My premerger retirement number would have been under 20 at USAirways....now it is north of 850. The BK didn't do that, Nicolau did.

A350

This is where you guys start departing controlled flight.

If you weren't in BK there would not have been a merger. So you have to ask yourself "how did we end up in BK??"

Could it be stubborn, irrational, unreasonable union leadership???

Gotta wonder!!

 

[Fast43]

Not so fast. I quaffed with many AAA pilots during this whole process. I never got the impression that their goal was to "screw" anybody...least of all, AWA pilots. My take is they HAVE been screwed by unscrupulous dorks over the past few years, and chose this issue to "dig in their heels". They clung to a parochial perspective that didn't consider the chance that an arbitrator wouldn't see things their way.

I think it was misguided. Negotiate an integration and you control at least 50% of the outcome. Send it to arbitration and you control 0%!

Must be the "new math" but I would think that narrow minded determination that insisted on a list that resulted in 1500 AWA guys ( that had jobs with one of the merging carriers ) being stapled to the bottom (even below furloughed pilots), does nothing but reveal a purposefull intention to further AAA careers at the expense of AWA careers.

To say nothing of the fact that after the Arbitrator told AAA merger committee that DOH was DOA and they insisted on DOH anyway.

What ever happened to the AAA guys before the merger is not the AWA guys responsibility to fix at our expense.

 

[Soulfly]

Occam,

I guess maybe I should have worded it differntly in making my point.
By "retrabution" I meant the lawsuit that was filed against our MEC Chairman by their MEC over the decision. I believe that was completely uncalled for, IMHO.

Anyhow, It's really too bad we are spending energy fighting each other. Really...

 

[PCL_128]

Now you have Prater running around saying the arbitrator doesn't have to follow ALPA merger policy.

I've heard Prater say that, and I completely disagree with him. However, he should just keep his mouth shut with that comment anyway, because it isn't even relevant in this case. In this case, the Executive Council looked at the integration and at the policy, and they determined that the arbitrator did follow the policy!

 

[johnnyb]

Not quite. The Transition Agreement, agreed to by ALL sides, is what lumps them together. The East side is trying to rewrite the rules to suit their desires. And it isn't working.

I know that TWA. What I'm speaking of is an attitude that the East "HAS" to vote yes on a new contract because we agreed to this process.

I will vote "NO" to any concessionary (for me ) contract. I will continue to vote "NO" on concessions until someone shows me a deal that is better than the one I currently have.

Regrettably, that deal is LOA 93 however, it is still better than even the ALPA asking rates + the Nic.

Still holding out hope the Rice Committee can work a deal for us all.

 

[TWA Dude]

What I mean when I say ALPA policy is flawed, is the fact it contains nebulous wording in its policy...wording that cannot possibly be nailed down with any certainty.

I hate to tell you this but having arbitration as the last step is not nebulous; it's what an arbitrator's job is. It's simply not possible to craft policy language covering every possible contingency. The ALPA Merger Policy guidelines are subjective and barring a mutual agreement a neutral party is the only fair way to rule on them. And BTW, nobody from the East was complaining about how "flawed" ALPA Policy was before Nicolau ruled.

Now you have Prater running around saying the arbitrator doesn't have to follow ALPA merger policy. I call BS on that one.

Read Section 45 of the policy manual. It doesn't explicitly say the arbitrator is bound by the five tenets that the merger committees are. Your point is moot, however, since Nicolau clearly stated he felt bound by ALPA Merger Policy and believed he ruled within it.

How can he run around saying that, when the expectation of all involved was that policy was followed.

Because the ALPA lawyers explained it to him.

I believe DOS or years of service is the only way. Someday, you may feel that way when you are merging with a younger pilot group.

I appreciate you admitting to what we've known all along: you favor a method of integration that benefits YOU. This is why I feel ALPA Policy is as fair as can be. It prevents "older" pilot groups from taking advantage of "younger" pilot groups.

 

[TWA Dude]

What I'm speaking of is an attitude that the East "HAS" to vote yes on a new contract because we agreed to this process.

I've never heard of that attitude. I think the AAA MEC is (once again) doing it's pilots a disservice by not even allowing a TA to be negotiated. I won't vote for a concessionary contract either.

Still holding out hope the Rice Committee can work a deal for us all.

Hope is nice, but what the East is demanding is unilateral concessions from the West. I've seen nothing to indicate that Rice is capable of convincing the East to give up this tact. The current stalemate is the East saying it can live with LOA 93 indefinately and the West saying it can live with stagnation indefinately. As usual the biggest winner is: Doug Parker.

 

[A350]

Fast:

Thanks, but I think my employer is plenty happy about where I work. Further, I am glad you feel the BK's that USAir went through were the fault of the union, not $hitty management....

The East pilots aren't asking the West pilots to bear any burden at all.....just to keep what they had. Which was massive attrition and a shot at salvaging their careers. If the integration had gone DOH or DOS with the appropriate fences around each operation, what would I have received that wasn't mine in the first place? Nothing.

If AWA didn't need an East coast presence and the international flying to survive, are you telling me Doogie wouldn't have come knocking at USAirs door with or without the second BK?

TWA: A DOS service merger at my present employer would be a disaster for me and many, if done just DOH. But I think it still is the best way to put lists together, especially when you place the appropriate fences around bases, equipment, and seats. Exactly how it should have been done here, and many times before.

PCL: What did you expect from the Rice committee, that they would say anything any different and open the Association up to massive litigation?

A350

 

[PCL_128]

PCL: What did you expect from the Rice committee, that they would say anything any different and open the Association up to massive litigation?

That decision did not come from the Rice Committee. That decision came from the Executive Council. The Rice Committee acts only as an adviser. It has no authority to interpret policy or the Bylaws. I know several members of the EC very well, and I can tell you that none of them would purposefully lie about their interpretation of policy just to keep the Association from having any further liability.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam: Katz? They guy they gave $1 mil for helping the U pilots negotiate their first BK offering? You're kidding, right?

Yup...that's the Katz.

Can you tell me exactly WHO hired Katz to be the AAA merger counsel?

Was it "ALPA"...or was it AAA pilots, as elected by AAA pilots? Katz's record as counsel to pilots is lousy. The NWA Merger Committee Chairman wants to hire that clown to be our merger counsel...but the MEC won't do it.

Apparently, that didn't happen at AAA.

I keep reading about how "ALPA" screwed AAA pilots. I think AAA pilots screwed AAA pilots.

My outsider's analysis of the sequence of events that led to the Award shows plenty of occasions where savvy advisors told the AAA MEC the Award would not be a good to them as a negotiated agreement.

In the aftermath, it appears to me the AAA MEC is trying to keep the masses agitated. I think they are identifying "villians" to keep AAA pilots from holding the truly guilty numbskulls accountable.

 

[A350]

Occam:

The MEC isn't doing anything.....the pilot group is the group that is agitated and the group that must be dealt with. The MEC, IMO, is doing what is best under the circumstances. The minute the MEC tries to tow the National line here, they will get recalled or worse in a heartbeat. If they aren't in there, who gets in there could be worse for Prater....and then the receivership will happen. After that, the East guys will be even less happy about their situation than they are now.

PCL:

While you may know these individuals, the idea that they wouldn't interpret the result in a complimentary way when it comes to "merger policy" comes as no surprise to me. they, like you, speak the party line. Not a cut, just facts.

A350

 

[TWA Dude]

But I think it still is the best way to put lists together, especially when you place the appropriate fences around bases, equipment, and seats.

There's a reason the policy was changed: in the post-Deregulation era the demographic differences between merging carriers means DOH might or might not be fair and equitable. The current policy allows for consideration of the vagaries of each merger. Your DOS one-size-fits-all method is inherently unfair.