New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[Guppiedriver]

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.
A350

Only if he bids an east coast domicile. Unlikely.

 

[Green]

Again, don't have a dog in this fight. However, if a US Air (east, I guess you guys call it) Capt. retires, and another US Air (east) guy upgrades to take his place; now not sure, but exact how can that be considered 'stealing upgrades'. If one of your (AWA/west, whatever) guys retires right now, doesn't an AWA guy upgrade to replace him???

How is it exactly 'stealing'??

Just my $0.02, not to interrupt your current rant.

DA

Because all of our (AWA's) resources are going into the East operation right now. Obviously without the merger Parker would not be spending our money on expanding an east operation. Absent the merger AAA would still be shrinking in a best case scenario. They certainly wouldn't have ordered 30+ widebodies plus 25+ E190's and 60 or so A320's.

It is very difficult to determine what flying belongs to each respective pilot group now that we are one airline. Since the east represents 60% or so of the operation they should be entitled to 60% of the upgrades and fo advancement. However they are trying to get more like 90%+ by weaseling their way out of the Arbitrator's decision. Nic basically gave a relative position award which spreads the upgrades evenly. The East wants it all. They would have never got 190's at mainline when you consider the fact that MDA was formed to fly Emb's and subsequently sold off. Now the east feels entitled to 100% of those positions. It is nothing more than a land grab engineered by the East MEC. They feel that their past abuse justifies holding the west down. Maybe it does I don't know. But it is idiotic to claim they are trying to do what is right.

 

[Fast43]

TWA:


All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

A350

Part of merger policy requires consideration of what ones career expectations were at the time of the merger announcement (May 2005) After all the testimony at the hearings, your merger committee was not able to convince the Arbitrator that your career was as Rosy as you want to believe. He even stated in his decision that AAA gained much more from this merger than AWA did. It is this fact that your mec can not stomach.

Our Merger Committee and MEC got permission from the Arbitrator to post the Daily transcripts on our website. Your MEC and Merger Committee told our guys that they were nuts for doing so. As a result we were able to read what was actually said and form our own opinions about how things were going. Your Committee told you what they wanted you to hear and nothing more. It actually sounded like "Bag Dad Bob" proclaiming that we have them surrounded out at the Airport and they are trying to Surrender etc etc.

I challenge you to seek out one of your merger guys and ask him personaly why you didn't get to see the transcripts as this was occurring.

Has anyone over there asked your Merger Comm or Mec how it is that if they were so high, mighty and Riteous in their case. Why wasn't it a slam dunk??? as you were told it would be.


Maybe you should do some research and make your own decsion on whether your MEC is leading you or decieving you!!!

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Again, don't have a dog in this fight. However, if a US Air (east, I guess you guys call it) Capt. retires, and another US Air (east) guy upgrades to take his place; now not sure, but exact how can that be considered 'stealing upgrades'. If one of your (AWA/west, whatever) guys retires right now, doesn't an AWA guy upgrade to replace him???

How is it exactly 'stealing'??

Just my $0.02, not to interrupt your current rant.

DA

Because all of our (AWA's) resources are going into the East operation right now. Obviously without the merger Parker would not be spending our money on expanding an east operation. Absent the merger AAA would still be shrinking in a best case scenario. They certainly wouldn't have ordered 30+ widebodies plus 25+ E190's and 60 or so A320's.

It is very difficult to determine what flying belongs to each respective pilot group now that we are one airline. Since the east represents 60% or so of the operation they should be entitled to 60% of the upgrades and fo advancement. However they are trying to get more like 90%+ by weaseling their way out of the Arbitrator's decision. Nic basically gave a relative position award which spreads the upgrades evenly. The East wants it all. They would have never got 190's at mainline when you consider the fact that MDA was formed to fly Emb's and subsequently sold off. Now the east feels entitled to 100% of those positions. It is nothing more than a land grab engineered by the East MEC. They feel that their past abuse justifies holding the west down. Maybe it does I don't know. But it is idiotic to claim they are trying to do what is right.

Again, do Not have a dog in this fight, but do know quite a few US Air (east) pilots.

".....spending our money on expanding the east operation." What expansion?? Other than some additional European flying, there has been NO expansion. In fact, since the merger, the 'capacity' of US Air has declined in viturally every month, with the small increase in int'l being far offset by declines in domestic capacity.

And, there is NO growth in the future plans of the airline

-E190s are replacing 737s. And, the options on future E190s are from converted options for E170s, which U had on the books prior to the merger.

-"60 or so A320s" (which I believe the total narrow-body order is actually a total of about 90 a/c), are ALL replacement aircraft.

-30+ widebodies (actually I think the 'firm' order is only 25), and some may be growth, but some will probably be replacements for the 767s in the future, plus the 757s (all but about 20) are scheduled to go away.

So, there has be NO real "expanding of the east operation." Drunk dumbass dougie does Not know how to 'grow' an airline. And, in all likelihood, all of the a/c (buses) that AWA has on order prior to merger was have been just 'replacement' a/c. And, prior to the merger, US Air staffing was allowed to decline (guys retiring at a rate of 20-30/mth. and not being replaced) well below what was necessary; in my honest opinion, as a deliberate move to reduce costs to 'make the deal.' Hence, the rush to accelerate the recalls, as flights were being cancelled, just to bring staffing levels up to where they should have been. As I believe (as I have studied this industy and business in general for years) that this merger was planned by Lakefield and Parker probably 2yrs before it was actually announced.

So, with NO real growth in the future of US Airways, the only way to 'move up' is through 'attrition.' And, the AWA (west) have their attrition and the US Air (east) have their attrition, but don't see any "stealing" as I stated before.

The sooner that both sides realize that the 'New' US Airways is not really going to 'grow' or go anywhere until that Drunk Dumbass dougie either, leaves, dies, or goes back to jail. Until, of course, the next merger, in which case, he will F#%k, both groups.

Don't you think there are 'a lot' of DL guys out there very happy that they dodged that 'drunk dumbass.' And, I guess a year ago, there were about 450 furloughed DL guys out there on the street, that you guys would have said, 'had NO career expectations' as they were 'furloughed' but most are now sitting in the right seat of a 767 flying int'l.

So, no stealing, as the US Air guys are just taking advantage of 'their attrition,' the same thing that I would do, and the same thing that you would do in their place; and of course, if you say you would do otherwise, you'd be just lying.

Just a thought.

DA

 

[Soulfly]

Fast43 said,

"I challenge you to seek out one of your merger guys and ask him personaly why you didn't get to see the transcripts as this was occurring."

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. PERIOD. JUST LIKE WHEN LOA93 GOT PASSED. DIFFERENT OPPPONENT. SAME RESULT.


A350, how has Dave's career progreasion been slowed, I think you are much smarter than to even ask the question.

Lets recap, all pilots on furlough at usair recalled. Ok, I understand most of that was due to attrition, I get it. How many upgrades have occured? Hundreds I am sure. I think there have been 20 or so on the AWA side.

But contrary to popular belief the AWA side brought it's own attrition to the game. Thats not what pisses me off. Prior to the "NIC decision", all the new aircraft went East, with the caveat we would all share in it when the sides were merged, not your side is seeking to stop that for infinity if possible.

Ok, so lets go back and re-mediate the 757, and E190 deals, since that seems to be ok by your standards.
GMAFB, you guys would tells us to go pound sand before we even walked through the door.

THAT's what pisses me off. And the fact in any other facet of professional life, if you signed a legal doc and then refused to comply with it you would face massive fines and possibly more. FACT.........

 

[weasel_lips]

And there you have it. After all this talk of what's right and the union brotherhood, etc it comes down to the East pilots using underhanded tactics to steal upgrades. You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

Now you have gone too far with that one. The East pilots are now stealing your upgrades? (Better call the upgrade police!!!!)

Shoot! I better head on over to PHL and see if I can grab one of them upgrades!

I thought none of you guys would even bid out east?

You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

Are saying you won? If so, what did you win? All the upgrades on the East or something???? So you won them, they are now yours? Sorry, but I don't think it is going to play out ANYTHING like that.

 

[PositiveRate]

It's going to play out as follows....

ALPA national will step in as trustee for the East MEC to finish the contract negotiations. The TA will be presented in early '08 and when each individual East pilot goes home to read over it and vote, they will choose a large payraise and better workrules over a bunch of empty promises from a radical faction of their own (USAPA) - that faction will demand money to further their efforts but be able to return nothing on the investment beyond delaying the inevitable implimentation of the nicolau decision and providing the status quo or worse for years to come.

The contract will pass with some piss poor margin and shall include all sorts of concessionary BS that never would have been there had your leaders not pulled the tantrum on the century - but it will pass.

USAPA will not have the cards to bring a representation vote, but will do anything they can to make us believe they do....oh and how many people sent in $$ with their card? Apparently not nearly enough as the two bit lawyer they hired is working on half pay in hopes of milking you in the future.

In the interim, any work slowdown or action even remotely traced to USAPA will result in immediate and drastic action from the company (ref. the recent sickout debacle). And any continued attempt to force AWA from our CBA will be met with years of lawsuits that doom even the dimmest light of hope the wack jobs that run USAPA might have.

The powers in this (read ALPA national and the company) are done being polite in respecting your grieving process of becoming a LCC minion. Welcome to the back of the bus...get used to it. Your actions have sealed that seat for us all for years to come because you fought the wrong battle. There was a brief moment in time before the list came out where it looked like we could stand together. Apparently, the only reason you chose to stand with us was you full heartedly believed the AWA group would become your furlough fodder.

 

[weasel_lips]

It's going to play out as follows....

The TA will be presented in early '08 and when each individual East pilot goes home to read over it and vote, they will choose a large payraise and better workrules over a bunch of empty promises from a radical faction of their own (USAPA) - that faction will demand money to further their efforts but be able to return nothing on the investment beyond delaying the inevitable implimentation of the nicolau decision and providing the status quo or worse for years to come.

The contract will pass with some piss poor margin and shall include all sorts of concessionary BS that never would have been there had your leaders not pulled the tantrum on the century - but it will pass.

It will pass on YOUR side maybe.

The votes simply are not there on the east side for a TA to pass. Even your (our) own CEO says so. (Watch the Town Hall meetings for yourself)

I am out here in the system. I have yet to speak to one single crew member that will vote yes on a joint contract. Since you need 51% over to here to say yes..... there numbers are not there for it to pass.

It will take more of a raise then management is willing to pay + fences to make anyone change their position.

I think we are looking at a decade of seperate ops, maybe more.

 

[ultrarunner]

I think we are looking at a decade of seperate ops, maybe more.

Ten years???

If U stopped hiring today, would there even be anyone ON the east list???

I bet there wouldn't be. That list is OLD....REALLY OLD!

 

[PositiveRate]

The company won't allow a decade of separate ops in my opinion. You give DP far too much credence on some of his soundbites...Look to the rumored sickout, the company's response and the email from both Jack and John for a reality check on how this will be handled if the sandbox scurmishes don't cease.

The people you fly with can SAY whatever they want now, but when the TA and increases in pay, workrules and retirement contributions are staring them in the face, they will make a decision that's best for their families. It will pass...maybe by just 1%, so prepare yourself. Nicolau will also stand with either union and we will all lose with USAPA at the helm if God forbid we are ever dragged into another merger.

You don't have to believe me...I don't expect you to, but I'm telling you, this is how it's going to happen.

The only winner in this is the company, as they benefit directly from our inabilities to work together. Not only will they feed us scraps, but they will make us fight over them.

 

[PositiveRate]

Your MEC also knows a TA passing is a near certainty but they refuse to man up to the fact that not only have they drawn the short straw for you, their actions prior to arbitration placed nothing but short straws in the hands of those that could have provided you with "reasonable solutions".

Whatever frustrations you may have are entirely misdirected.

Your MEC is standing square in the way of forward movement for both sides and they are going to be run over by the Tiennamen tank if you know what I mean. The end game is coming and it's going to suck for both East and West...don't say you weren't warned.

Look to your leaders first...they are where the blame lies, but if you tote their spew, look in the mirror because in the end, you'll have no one to blame but yourself. Your misery will have company though...that I'll give you.

 

[A350]

If the East MEC is put into receivership, ALPA will alienate even the staunchest East ALPA supporter. Then all the ALPA support will crumble and USAPA will have more than enough cards if they don't already.

Whether, in the end, USAPA wins the total election is a 50/50 shot. But in the end it delays the integration, the East pilots capture their attrition, and in their minds, they get what they were after all along.

The fact that there have been no upgrades on the West side of the house is one of two things....not enough growth opportunities out west, not enough attrition out west, the fact that so much East flying was subbed out to the lowest bidder and now with higher traffic levels, there are more $$$ opportunities out east, and Dougie is bent on keeping both groups PO'ed at each other because he wins.

I would look for that to continue.

A350

 

[weasel_lips]

Your MEC also knows a TA passing is a near certainty

You sound like you put a lot of thought and time into your post. I commend you for that, but I have to disagree with your opinion.

For example, I am the average line pilot out here. (PHL AB FO). I will vote no on any TA that comes through, unless it has a 20yr fence and a 40% raise. Simply because of the loss of seniority. That is the key issue. Pay/work rules/retirement are all important but secondary concerns.

Meeting those requirements is doubtful, so I don't see it happening.

 

[PositiveRate]

A350 - It takes more than cards....the devil in the details is money, of which USAPA has virtually none and I would be very surprised to see East pilots bankroll a new union in lieu of large raises, profit sharing, etc etc.

Weasel - I don't expect you to agree with me. You may see a 20-30% raise, but you'll never see a 20 yr fence. Your vote is your choice, but I do think it will play out as I outlined. There's too much wishing going on...what we're destined for is an average contract and a disgruntled pilot group.

 

[TWA Dude]

If the East MEC is put into receivership, ALPA will alienate even the staunchest East ALPA supporter.

Keep in mind that surely Prater doesn't want to do this. I mean, he wasted five months before telling you guys Nicolau's decision stands when everybody knew it from the beginning. In the end, he has no choice but to follow the policies and in this case it's clear to everybody but the AAA MEC who's not following the rules. If following the rules is something that makes more Easties want to dump ALPA then I guess this is a good thing because it bodes well for USAPA's future. (read sarcasm)

But in the end it delays the integration, the East pilots capture their attrition, and in their minds, they get what they were after all along.

This may come to pass, but it won't be forgotten. The next time we'll all know to act quicker to stop the cheaters.

The fact that there have been no upgrades on the West side of the house is one of two things....not enough growth opportunities out west, not enough attrition out west,...

Ah, revisionist history. Day before merger announcement: AWA hiring around 15/month, growing, aircraft deliveries scheduled. Day after merger: deliveries stop, aircraft retired, hiring stops, stagnation begins. I'm not predicting the future, only stating the situation on that fateful day in Spring 2005. Need I remind you of what was happening at USAirways at that time?

... and Dougie is bent on keeping both groups PO'ed at each other because he wins. I would look for that to continue.

Thanks to the AAA MEC, you're correct.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

350,


Kerosene,

Do you really want a fence to keep the west folks out of the east? You talk about protecting the attrition of the east, but if such a fence were to be fair, it would have to give the west pilots credit for their attrition and a percentage of the airlines growth, as well. That would mean that the next 300 or so upgrades would have to go to west pilots. Not to mention the fact that there will be more pilots wanting to come out west than vice-versa. Also, you can't really control where the company puts the flying. So far, it has migrated out east because you do it cheaper out there. Another example of better be careful what you wish for.

Seems simple enough. USAir Captain retires, USAir F/O takes his place, AWA Capt retires AWA F/O takes his place. Any new aircraft past the numbers present at the time of the merger goes per the nic list.

The AWA guys get their attrition that they brought with them, the Airways guys get the attrition that they brought. Granted that USAir has many more retiring in the very near future than AWA does, (Roughly 800 Capts in 5 years or so), but most of the growth seats would go to the west due to the Nic award.

Airways has a mass exodous of pilots that started a year or so back and will continue for quite a few years, so even without the merger and zero growth in airframes every furloughed pilot would have been back barring a complete shutdown in very short time with hiring needed. Arguing if airways would have made it or if AWA would have survived is an exercise in futility. Airways has been around since the 40's in one form or another and AWA since the early 80's. Neither were a real prize at the time of the merger. One was a second rate wannabe and the other was a has been.

Together in an amicable agreement they could be a powerhouse again.

 

[PositiveRate]

There will be an agreement, but it will not be amicable and thus the has beens will become second rate wannabe's.

- AAA MEC is going to be neutered by national. They will remain resolute in their defiance so that the blame can be deflected from them when they are relieved of their duties.

- TA will be negotiated and presented

- USAPA will stir the pot to no avail. $$ talks.

- Threats from USAPA will be met with firm action from the company and reveal who truly is in control.

- TA will pass by very small margin

- Nicolau decision will stand

- East will be pissed because of seniority

- West will be pissed because we ended up with concessions after wasting nearly a year on the list battle and lost much leverage in negotiations as a result.

- We'll all live happily every after as long as there is not another merger. Our wounds as they are will heal, but they will sink us all in a future merger if we can't stand shoulder to shoulder as a unified group.

Take it to the bank...it will play out as I say.

Either way, the delay tactics are deplorable and are admittedly (ref A350's comments) what this is all about.

 

[TWA Dude]

Seems simple enough. USAir Captain retires, USAir F/O takes his place, AWA Capt retires AWA F/O takes his place.

Wow, that is simple. Why didn't Nicolau think of that? Oh yeah, he didn't ignore the rest of the story. (If you don't know what story I'm referring to please reference the Nicolau Award.)

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Wow, that is simple. Why didn't Nicolau think of that? Oh yeah, he didn't ignore the rest of the story. (If you don't know what story I'm referring to please reference the Nicolau Award.)

Quite frankly, to the guys who gave massive concessions in 02, then were screwed out of their retirement and now will have to spend the rest of their 30 year career as F/O to somebody half their age and experience, they don't care.

From what I have seen on crew busses and around the system their general feeling seems to be that without being able to get the benefits of the Airways retirements they have nothing to lose. Since they account for 2/3 of the total pilot group that is a very very dangerous attitude for Parker to have to deal with....too many to fire or get rid of and survive, and too many to be able to just ignore and hope it goes away.

Without some concessions toward keeping the east attrition on the east side I am positive that my recall is just another stopgap until the next job comes around, the airline will not survive in my opinion otherwise. When you get off the cat fight on the message boards and talk to the guys that never post on things like Flifo, the rank and file east guy you will see that to them if they lose the retirements to the west they have zero reason to keep airways going.

You and I have reasons to want it to continue, they on the other hand can do just as well in their last 10 years or so as Corporate pilots as they could being F/O to a guy hired in 2000 to 2004. So they have nothing to lose by trying everything possible to keep the attrition.

Just my opinion by looking at the situation.

 

[PHXFLYR]

[...The problem we face today is the AAA MEC failure to accept reality and attempt to end-run around the policy they're bound by. People keep floating around ideas like the AWA MEC should give-in on some fences or something and that'll solve everything. Of course, instead of negotiating as equals the AAA MEC is suing us, fighting a media battle, and implicitly supporting a campaign to replace ALPA purely in the selfish hope of screwing the West. With this gun being held to our head we should appease the East? It's not about Nicolau anymore.[/quote]


It certainly isn't.


PHXFLYR