New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[Golden Falcon]

In hindsight wouldn't have been better to let USAirways go out of business and AWA pick the carcass??

 

[Fast43]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

A350

Hey 350 get a clue,

1800 guys were not stapled to the bottom of the list!!! 1800 pilots who did not have a job to bring to the merger were placed at the bottom of the list.

Speaking of returning to AAA from furlough. can you realisticaly tell us when you were comming back, minus the merger???

Why is it so hard for you to see that the recall you have more rapidly enjoyed and the attrition you claim to be your birthright has only been afforded to you because of the merger. To claim that the old AAA was going to continue on to infinity for you to enjoy attrition with out this merger is such a joke.

You state that you will now never hold a widebody seat or something to that effect. Please educate yourself since your MEC won't. The rhetoric that makes those claims is based on "stovepipe bidding" that was used during the Arbitration but in fact has no basis in reality. besides considering how far down your list you guys have to go to fill those seats, it really must not be that big of a deal. Think about it, this summer nobody at AAA wanted a A-330 wide body F/O seat so a recalled furloughee was forced in. Yeah their crawling overthemselves for that seat.

While we're here, just what exactly do you think USAPA will do for you?? Seriously??

 

[Thebadcat1313]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

Guppie:

It ain't the number....it is the progression and the end game.

A350

350,

Historically, when airlines furlough, it's the bottom 20% that have to worry. Not the bottom 500 or the bottom 1800 or 2500. 20%. You need to start thinking in percentage terms instead of numbers. Dave Odell would have easily had 20% below him by now and would not have had to sweat the idea of a furlough absent this merger. To take this away from him, to favor someone who did not bring a job to the table is completely asinine. I don't care if that person got hired in 1997, 1987, 1977 or is Orville F'n Wright. As things stand right now, Dave is still only about 10% from the bottom. He has lost much career progression due to this merger. The next industry downturn has him squarely in its sights when, by all rights he should have plenty of cushion behind him by now.

Kerosene,

Do you really want a fence to keep the west folks out of the east? You talk about protecting the attrition of the east, but if such a fence were to be fair, it would have to give the west pilots credit for their attrition and a percentage of the airlines growth, as well. That would mean that the next 300 or so upgrades would have to go to west pilots. Not to mention the fact that there will be more pilots wanting to come out west than vice-versa. Also, you can't really control where the company puts the flying. So far, it has migrated out east because you do it cheaper out there. Another example of better be careful what you wish for.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

I know you don't. This is why it went to binding arbitration and why you're so unhappy with the result. I don't expect to be able to convince you of the fairness of Nicolau's decision and frankly I shouldn't have to try.

The problem we face today is the AAA MEC failure to accept reality and attempt to end-run around the policy they're bound by. People keep floating around ideas like the AWA MEC should give-in on some fences or something and that'll solve everything. Of course, instead of negotiating as equals the AAA MEC is suing us, fighting a media battle, and implicitly supporting a campaign to replace ALPA purely in the selfish hope of screwing the West. With this gun being held to our head we should appease the East? It's not about Nicolau anymore.

 

[A350]

TWA:

I don't expect the West MEC to do anything, other than represent their pilots, just like I expect the East MEC to do the same.

All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

The growth should be split to both sides of the houses. The attrition should have kept to each side of the aisle. Are you telling me 17% of your list should have upgraded in the past 3 years?

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.

What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.

Like it or not, ALPA needs a wake up call. Maybe this is it.

A350

 

[Green]

TWA:


What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.


A350

.....

 

[Green]

TWA:


What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.


A350

And there you have it. After all this talk of what's right and the union brotherhood, etc it comes down to the East pilots using underhanded tactics to steal upgrades. You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

And there you have it. After all this talk of what's right and the union brotherhood, etc it comes down to the East pilots using underhanded tactics to steal upgrades. You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

Again, don't have a dog in this fight. However, if a US Air (east, I guess you guys call it) Capt. retires, and another US Air (east) guy upgrades to take his place; now not sure, but exact how can that be considered 'stealing upgrades'. If one of your (AWA/west, whatever) guys retires right now, doesn't an AWA guy upgrade to replace him???

How is it exactly 'stealing'??

Just my $0.02, not to interrupt your current rant.

DA

P.S. And, since no one sees a problem with the current alpa merger policy, considering there will be other mergers within the industry; I'm just waiting for the next 'arbritrator' to just decide to put all the names on a slip of paper, put them into a hat; and then just draw names out of the hat, one by one. Sounds crazy, but actually 'totally fair' as everyone has an 'equal chance' of being '#1, #2, etc' and then watching alpa 'defend' the results?? As according the the 'prez' of alpo, an arbritator is totally free to do so. Again, just a thought.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't expect the West MEC to do anything, other than represent their pilots, just like I expect the East MEC to do the same.

I would most certainly NOT expect my MEC to violate policies we're bound by. Your MEC is serving you very poorly and very few amongst the Easties seem to recognize this.

All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

If it's irrelevant than why are there hours of testimony in front of Nicolau convincing him of what each side expected the future to bring? Oh yeah, I forgot, your MEC didn't want you guys to see the hearing transcripts.

The growth should be split to both sides of the houses. The attrition should have kept to each side of the aisle. Are you telling me 17% of your list should have upgraded in the past 3 years?

I'm not telling you anything. See the Nicolau Award if you have any questions.

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.

So too will the East.

I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.

I can only speak for myself on this but as someone who would've loved to have had the TWA/AA integration arbitrated I know I would've accepted the decision come whay may. I know what binding means.

Like it or not, ALPA needs a wake up call. Maybe this is it.

You're right about somebody needing a wake up call but you're mistaken about whom. After this mess is over the EC will likely try to fix the gaps in the Merger Policy that allowed the East to make a mockery of it.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm just waiting for the next 'arbritrator' to just decide to put all the names on a slip of paper, put them into a hat; and then just draw names out of the hat, one by one.

Do you think these arbitrators come out of thin air? Here's Nicolau's cv: http://www.nmb.gov/arbitrator-resumes/nicolau-george-gn_res.pdf

There's only a handful of arbitrator's in the country qualified to do an integration this big. I think there were five names on the strike-out list to choose from. Nicolau was number three on each MEC's list. In other words, he wasn't a kook before he ruled and it's specious to claim he's a kook now. Don't take my word for; just read what the two pilot neutrals had to say about him. Arbitrators wield an enormous amount of power and are pretty much never overridden. Both sides know this going into arbitration so there's no use crying over spilled milk.