New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[Golden Falcon]

In hindsight wouldn't have been better to let USAirways go out of business and AWA pick the carcass??

 

[Fast43]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

A350

Hey 350 get a clue,

1800 guys were not stapled to the bottom of the list!!! 1800 pilots who did not have a job to bring to the merger were placed at the bottom of the list.

Speaking of returning to AAA from furlough. can you realisticaly tell us when you were comming back, minus the merger???

Why is it so hard for you to see that the recall you have more rapidly enjoyed and the attrition you claim to be your birthright has only been afforded to you because of the merger. To claim that the old AAA was going to continue on to infinity for you to enjoy attrition with out this merger is such a joke.

You state that you will now never hold a widebody seat or something to that effect. Please educate yourself since your MEC won't. The rhetoric that makes those claims is based on "stovepipe bidding" that was used during the Arbitration but in fact has no basis in reality. besides considering how far down your list you guys have to go to fill those seats, it really must not be that big of a deal. Think about it, this summer nobody at AAA wanted a A-330 wide body F/O seat so a recalled furloughee was forced in. Yeah their crawling overthemselves for that seat.

While we're here, just what exactly do you think USAPA will do for you?? Seriously??

 

[Thebadcat1313]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

Guppie:

It ain't the number....it is the progression and the end game.

A350

350,

Historically, when airlines furlough, it's the bottom 20% that have to worry. Not the bottom 500 or the bottom 1800 or 2500. 20%. You need to start thinking in percentage terms instead of numbers. Dave Odell would have easily had 20% below him by now and would not have had to sweat the idea of a furlough absent this merger. To take this away from him, to favor someone who did not bring a job to the table is completely asinine. I don't care if that person got hired in 1997, 1987, 1977 or is Orville F'n Wright. As things stand right now, Dave is still only about 10% from the bottom. He has lost much career progression due to this merger. The next industry downturn has him squarely in its sights when, by all rights he should have plenty of cushion behind him by now.

Kerosene,

Do you really want a fence to keep the west folks out of the east? You talk about protecting the attrition of the east, but if such a fence were to be fair, it would have to give the west pilots credit for their attrition and a percentage of the airlines growth, as well. That would mean that the next 300 or so upgrades would have to go to west pilots. Not to mention the fact that there will be more pilots wanting to come out west than vice-versa. Also, you can't really control where the company puts the flying. So far, it has migrated out east because you do it cheaper out there. Another example of better be careful what you wish for.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

I know you don't. This is why it went to binding arbitration and why you're so unhappy with the result. I don't expect to be able to convince you of the fairness of Nicolau's decision and frankly I shouldn't have to try.

The problem we face today is the AAA MEC failure to accept reality and attempt to end-run around the policy they're bound by. People keep floating around ideas like the AWA MEC should give-in on some fences or something and that'll solve everything. Of course, instead of negotiating as equals the AAA MEC is suing us, fighting a media battle, and implicitly supporting a campaign to replace ALPA purely in the selfish hope of screwing the West. With this gun being held to our head we should appease the East? It's not about Nicolau anymore.

 

[A350]

TWA:

I don't expect the West MEC to do anything, other than represent their pilots, just like I expect the East MEC to do the same.

All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

The growth should be split to both sides of the houses. The attrition should have kept to each side of the aisle. Are you telling me 17% of your list should have upgraded in the past 3 years?

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.

What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.

Like it or not, ALPA needs a wake up call. Maybe this is it.

A350

 

[Green]

TWA:


What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.


A350

.....

 

[Green]

TWA:


What will USAPA do for me? Not much. However the East pilots believe that if they delay the integration by stonewalling the talks or placing another group in charge of their bargaining, they can absorb some of the attrition that they believe to be rightly theirs.
I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.


A350

And there you have it. After all this talk of what's right and the union brotherhood, etc it comes down to the East pilots using underhanded tactics to steal upgrades. You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

And there you have it. After all this talk of what's right and the union brotherhood, etc it comes down to the East pilots using underhanded tactics to steal upgrades. You 'lost' fair and square yet refuse to be grownups and play by the rules.

Again, don't have a dog in this fight. However, if a US Air (east, I guess you guys call it) Capt. retires, and another US Air (east) guy upgrades to take his place; now not sure, but exact how can that be considered 'stealing upgrades'. If one of your (AWA/west, whatever) guys retires right now, doesn't an AWA guy upgrade to replace him???

How is it exactly 'stealing'??

Just my $0.02, not to interrupt your current rant.

DA

P.S. And, since no one sees a problem with the current alpa merger policy, considering there will be other mergers within the industry; I'm just waiting for the next 'arbritrator' to just decide to put all the names on a slip of paper, put them into a hat; and then just draw names out of the hat, one by one. Sounds crazy, but actually 'totally fair' as everyone has an 'equal chance' of being '#1, #2, etc' and then watching alpa 'defend' the results?? As according the the 'prez' of alpo, an arbritator is totally free to do so. Again, just a thought.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't expect the West MEC to do anything, other than represent their pilots, just like I expect the East MEC to do the same.

I would most certainly NOT expect my MEC to violate policies we're bound by. Your MEC is serving you very poorly and very few amongst the Easties seem to recognize this.

All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

If it's irrelevant than why are there hours of testimony in front of Nicolau convincing him of what each side expected the future to bring? Oh yeah, I forgot, your MEC didn't want you guys to see the hearing transcripts.

The growth should be split to both sides of the houses. The attrition should have kept to each side of the aisle. Are you telling me 17% of your list should have upgraded in the past 3 years?

I'm not telling you anything. See the Nicolau Award if you have any questions.

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.

So too will the East.

I would expect nothing less of your group if the situation was reversed.

I can only speak for myself on this but as someone who would've loved to have had the TWA/AA integration arbitrated I know I would've accepted the decision come whay may. I know what binding means.

Like it or not, ALPA needs a wake up call. Maybe this is it.

You're right about somebody needing a wake up call but you're mistaken about whom. After this mess is over the EC will likely try to fix the gaps in the Merger Policy that allowed the East to make a mockery of it.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm just waiting for the next 'arbritrator' to just decide to put all the names on a slip of paper, put them into a hat; and then just draw names out of the hat, one by one.

Do you think these arbitrators come out of thin air? Here's Nicolau's cv: http://www.nmb.gov/arbitrator-resumes/nicolau-george-gn_res.pdf

There's only a handful of arbitrator's in the country qualified to do an integration this big. I think there were five names on the strike-out list to choose from. Nicolau was number three on each MEC's list. In other words, he wasn't a kook before he ruled and it's specious to claim he's a kook now. Don't take my word for; just read what the two pilot neutrals had to say about him. Arbitrators wield an enormous amount of power and are pretty much never overridden. Both sides know this going into arbitration so there's no use crying over spilled milk.

 

[Guppiedriver]

ODells progression has stagnated....however, as it stands right now, he will enjoy rapid advancement.
A350

Only if he bids an east coast domicile. Unlikely.

 

[Green]

Again, don't have a dog in this fight. However, if a US Air (east, I guess you guys call it) Capt. retires, and another US Air (east) guy upgrades to take his place; now not sure, but exact how can that be considered 'stealing upgrades'. If one of your (AWA/west, whatever) guys retires right now, doesn't an AWA guy upgrade to replace him???

How is it exactly 'stealing'??

Just my $0.02, not to interrupt your current rant.

DA

Because all of our (AWA's) resources are going into the East operation right now. Obviously without the merger Parker would not be spending our money on expanding an east operation. Absent the merger AAA would still be shrinking in a best case scenario. They certainly wouldn't have ordered 30+ widebodies plus 25+ E190's and 60 or so A320's.

It is very difficult to determine what flying belongs to each respective pilot group now that we are one airline. Since the east represents 60% or so of the operation they should be entitled to 60% of the upgrades and fo advancement. However they are trying to get more like 90%+ by weaseling their way out of the Arbitrator's decision. Nic basically gave a relative position award which spreads the upgrades evenly. The East wants it all. They would have never got 190's at mainline when you consider the fact that MDA was formed to fly Emb's and subsequently sold off. Now the east feels entitled to 100% of those positions. It is nothing more than a land grab engineered by the East MEC. They feel that their past abuse justifies holding the west down. Maybe it does I don't know. But it is idiotic to claim they are trying to do what is right.

 

[Fast43]

TWA:


All the hooey about what would have happened to USAir minus the merger is about as relavent as what would have happened to AWA minus the merger.

A350

Part of merger policy requires consideration of what ones career expectations were at the time of the merger announcement (May 2005) After all the testimony at the hearings, your merger committee was not able to convince the Arbitrator that your career was as Rosy as you want to believe. He even stated in his decision that AAA gained much more from this merger than AWA did. It is this fact that your mec can not stomach.

Our Merger Committee and MEC got permission from the Arbitrator to post the Daily transcripts on our website. Your MEC and Merger Committee told our guys that they were nuts for doing so. As a result we were able to read what was actually said and form our own opinions about how things were going. Your Committee told you what they wanted you to hear and nothing more. It actually sounded like "Bag Dad Bob" proclaiming that we have them surrounded out at the Airport and they are trying to Surrender etc etc.

I challenge you to seek out one of your merger guys and ask him personaly why you didn't get to see the transcripts as this was occurring.

Has anyone over there asked your Merger Comm or Mec how it is that if they were so high, mighty and Riteous in their case. Why wasn't it a slam dunk??? as you were told it would be.


Maybe you should do some research and make your own decsion on whether your MEC is leading you or decieving you!!!

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Again, don't have a dog in this fight. However, if a US Air (east, I guess you guys call it) Capt. retires, and another US Air (east) guy upgrades to take his place; now not sure, but exact how can that be considered 'stealing upgrades'. If one of your (AWA/west, whatever) guys retires right now, doesn't an AWA guy upgrade to replace him???

How is it exactly 'stealing'??

Just my $0.02, not to interrupt your current rant.

DA

Because all of our (AWA's) resources are going into the East operation right now. Obviously without the merger Parker would not be spending our money on expanding an east operation. Absent the merger AAA would still be shrinking in a best case scenario. They certainly wouldn't have ordered 30+ widebodies plus 25+ E190's and 60 or so A320's.

It is very difficult to determine what flying belongs to each respective pilot group now that we are one airline. Since the east represents 60% or so of the operation they should be entitled to 60% of the upgrades and fo advancement. However they are trying to get more like 90%+ by weaseling their way out of the Arbitrator's decision. Nic basically gave a relative position award which spreads the upgrades evenly. The East wants it all. They would have never got 190's at mainline when you consider the fact that MDA was formed to fly Emb's and subsequently sold off. Now the east feels entitled to 100% of those positions. It is nothing more than a land grab engineered by the East MEC. They feel that their past abuse justifies holding the west down. Maybe it does I don't know. But it is idiotic to claim they are trying to do what is right.

Again, do Not have a dog in this fight, but do know quite a few US Air (east) pilots.

".....spending our money on expanding the east operation." What expansion?? Other than some additional European flying, there has been NO expansion. In fact, since the merger, the 'capacity' of US Air has declined in viturally every month, with the small increase in int'l being far offset by declines in domestic capacity.

And, there is NO growth in the future plans of the airline

-E190s are replacing 737s. And, the options on future E190s are from converted options for E170s, which U had on the books prior to the merger.

-"60 or so A320s" (which I believe the total narrow-body order is actually a total of about 90 a/c), are ALL replacement aircraft.

-30+ widebodies (actually I think the 'firm' order is only 25), and some may be growth, but some will probably be replacements for the 767s in the future, plus the 757s (all but about 20) are scheduled to go away.

So, there has be NO real "expanding of the east operation." Drunk dumbass dougie does Not know how to 'grow' an airline. And, in all likelihood, all of the a/c (buses) that AWA has on order prior to merger was have been just 'replacement' a/c. And, prior to the merger, US Air staffing was allowed to decline (guys retiring at a rate of 20-30/mth. and not being replaced) well below what was necessary; in my honest opinion, as a deliberate move to reduce costs to 'make the deal.' Hence, the rush to accelerate the recalls, as flights were being cancelled, just to bring staffing levels up to where they should have been. As I believe (as I have studied this industy and business in general for years) that this merger was planned by Lakefield and Parker probably 2yrs before it was actually announced.

So, with NO real growth in the future of US Airways, the only way to 'move up' is through 'attrition.' And, the AWA (west) have their attrition and the US Air (east) have their attrition, but don't see any "stealing" as I stated before.

The sooner that both sides realize that the 'New' US Airways is not really going to 'grow' or go anywhere until that Drunk Dumbass dougie either, leaves, dies, or goes back to jail. Until, of course, the next merger, in which case, he will F#%k, both groups.

Don't you think there are 'a lot' of DL guys out there very happy that they dodged that 'drunk dumbass.' And, I guess a year ago, there were about 450 furloughed DL guys out there on the street, that you guys would have said, 'had NO career expectations' as they were 'furloughed' but most are now sitting in the right seat of a 767 flying int'l.

So, no stealing, as the US Air guys are just taking advantage of 'their attrition,' the same thing that I would do, and the same thing that you would do in their place; and of course, if you say you would do otherwise, you'd be just lying.

Just a thought.

DA

 

[Soulfly]

Fast43 said,

"I challenge you to seek out one of your merger guys and ask him personaly why you didn't get to see the transcripts as this was occurring."

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. PERIOD. JUST LIKE WHEN LOA93 GOT PASSED. DIFFERENT OPPPONENT. SAME RESULT.


A350, how has Dave's career progreasion been slowed, I think you are much smarter than to even ask the question.

Lets recap, all pilots on furlough at usair recalled. Ok, I understand most of that was due to attrition, I get it. How many upgrades have occured? Hundreds I am sure. I think there have been 20 or so on the AWA side.

But contrary to popular belief the AWA side brought it's own attrition to the game. Thats not what pisses me off. Prior to the "NIC decision", all the new aircraft went East, with the caveat we would all share in it when the sides were merged, not your side is seeking to stop that for infinity if possible.

Ok, so lets go back and re-mediate the 757, and E190 deals, since that seems to be ok by your standards.
GMAFB, you guys would tells us to go pound sand before we even walked through the door.

THAT's what pisses me off. And the fact in any other facet of professional life, if you signed a legal doc and then refused to comply with it you would face massive fines and possibly more. FACT.........