New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[A350]

Fast:

Thanks, but I think my employer is plenty happy about where I work. Further, I am glad you feel the BK's that USAir went through were the fault of the union, not $hitty management....

The East pilots aren't asking the West pilots to bear any burden at all.....just to keep what they had. Which was massive attrition and a shot at salvaging their careers. If the integration had gone DOH or DOS with the appropriate fences around each operation, what would I have received that wasn't mine in the first place? Nothing.

If AWA didn't need an East coast presence and the international flying to survive, are you telling me Doogie wouldn't have come knocking at USAirs door with or without the second BK?

TWA: A DOS service merger at my present employer would be a disaster for me and many, if done just DOH. But I think it still is the best way to put lists together, especially when you place the appropriate fences around bases, equipment, and seats. Exactly how it should have been done here, and many times before.

PCL: What did you expect from the Rice committee, that they would say anything any different and open the Association up to massive litigation?

A350

 

[PCL_128]

PCL: What did you expect from the Rice committee, that they would say anything any different and open the Association up to massive litigation?

That decision did not come from the Rice Committee. That decision came from the Executive Council. The Rice Committee acts only as an adviser. It has no authority to interpret policy or the Bylaws. I know several members of the EC very well, and I can tell you that none of them would purposefully lie about their interpretation of policy just to keep the Association from having any further liability.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam: Katz? They guy they gave $1 mil for helping the U pilots negotiate their first BK offering? You're kidding, right?

Yup...that's the Katz.

Can you tell me exactly WHO hired Katz to be the AAA merger counsel?

Was it "ALPA"...or was it AAA pilots, as elected by AAA pilots? Katz's record as counsel to pilots is lousy. The NWA Merger Committee Chairman wants to hire that clown to be our merger counsel...but the MEC won't do it.

Apparently, that didn't happen at AAA.

I keep reading about how "ALPA" screwed AAA pilots. I think AAA pilots screwed AAA pilots.

My outsider's analysis of the sequence of events that led to the Award shows plenty of occasions where savvy advisors told the AAA MEC the Award would not be a good to them as a negotiated agreement.

In the aftermath, it appears to me the AAA MEC is trying to keep the masses agitated. I think they are identifying "villians" to keep AAA pilots from holding the truly guilty numbskulls accountable.

 

[A350]

Occam:

The MEC isn't doing anything.....the pilot group is the group that is agitated and the group that must be dealt with. The MEC, IMO, is doing what is best under the circumstances. The minute the MEC tries to tow the National line here, they will get recalled or worse in a heartbeat. If they aren't in there, who gets in there could be worse for Prater....and then the receivership will happen. After that, the East guys will be even less happy about their situation than they are now.

PCL:

While you may know these individuals, the idea that they wouldn't interpret the result in a complimentary way when it comes to "merger policy" comes as no surprise to me. they, like you, speak the party line. Not a cut, just facts.

A350

 

[TWA Dude]

But I think it still is the best way to put lists together, especially when you place the appropriate fences around bases, equipment, and seats.

There's a reason the policy was changed: in the post-Deregulation era the demographic differences between merging carriers means DOH might or might not be fair and equitable. The current policy allows for consideration of the vagaries of each merger. Your DOS one-size-fits-all method is inherently unfair.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The minute the MEC tries to tow the National line here, they will get recalled or worse in a heartbeat.

"Tow the National line"?

Whatta load of hooey!

The MEC isn't standing up and explaining their role in this!

They chose the galactically incompetent Katz. They opted to Press On when negotiation to a compromise would've been a smarter choice. And they REFUSE to step up and tell the pilot group to get over it.

If you're suggesting that the MEC you have now would be the same guys who'd run the show under the USAPA, then it more hopeless there than I thought.

 

[steveg]

Here's the problem in one simple quote from 350 that typifies the Usair pilots:

If the integration had gone DOH or DOS with the appropriate fences around each operation, what would I have received that wasn't mine in the first place?

He was furloughed and did not even bring a job to the merger, yet the attrition was his. I'm constantly surprised by the sense of entitlement.

 

[A350]

steve:

What is meant whe I say what was mine in the first place is when I was recalled, I would end up in a certain career progression and that was my expectation. Just like the AWA folks yelling about a 7 year upgrade and current stagnation as a reason why they should get a better deal in the integration.

My issue with the integration is that I lose things that were in my career expectation and the AWA guys gain things that weren't in their career expectation. And the loss is not an extra year or two in the right seat or flying the widebody, it is a permanent loss.

You brought a job to the merger, but less attrition. Why are you entitled to the attrition?

TWA: DOS with fences is anything but inherently unfair. It would protect each group. That is a two way street.

Occam: Is Katz on the National payroll? The USAPA guys are not the MEC guys.

A350

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA: DOS with fences is anything but inherently unfair. It would protect each group. That is a two way street.

As I've stated over and over, fences don't stop furloughs. The pain of future furloughs must be shared (as Nicolau's relative-seniority solution does) and not come excessively from one side. Did you ever stop for a second and consider that maybe, jut maybe, Nicolau is better qualified to merge pilot's seniority than you? Or me, for that matter?

 

[Soulfly]

TWA,

You just hit on probably the biggest part of the whole fence concept.

FURLOUGHING. Under the AAA MC position, 1500 AWA pilots would be first in line for furlough. In front of a guy that was furloughed well after the merger was complete. Sounds fair..........

I'm sure they would have negotiated with the AWA MC after the fact via the RICE commitee, for some furlough protection for the AWA guys. Hilarious.

 

[Guppiedriver]

steve:

What is meant whe I say what was mine in the first place is when I was recalled, I would end up in a certain career progression and that was my expectation. Just like the AWA folks yelling about a 7 year upgrade and current stagnation as a reason why they should get a better deal in the integration.

My issue with the integration is that I lose things that were in my career expectation and the AWA guys gain things that weren't in their career expectation. And the loss is not an extra year or two in the right seat or flying the widebody, it is a permanent loss.

You brought a job to the merger, but less attrition. Why are you entitled to the attrition?


A350

The seats we brought to the merger were real. The attrition you claim was rightfully yours, was at best a pipe dream. The merger took away our progression, but it gave you a second chance. Nicolau realized this and ensured that the pain be spread out as evenly as possible.

From what I can see, you are way too hung up on your new number. Fact is, you will still be at the same relative spot in PHL or CLT as you would have been, merger or not. Believe it or not, the merger actually accelerated your recall. Without the merger, you were facing many more years on furlough or worse.

Once this mess is settled, the amount of pilots bidding west to east or east to west will be so small, nobody will hardly notice.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam: Is Katz on the National payroll? The USAPA guys are not the MEC guys.

Katz is not on the National payroll. He has been hired by a few misguided Merger Committee's, but not National.

The MEC has an obligation to stop the USAPA.

 

[ultrarunner]

Negotiate an integration and you control at least 50% of the outcome. Send it to arbitration and you control 0%!

WELL SAID. And it's pretty safe to say every east pilot knows that by now!

 

[A350]

TWA Dude:

I don't see how stapling 1800 guys to the bottom of the combined list "spreads" out the furlough possibilities.....

Even if you figure only half of those 1800 return, hell even 25% leaves a good 500 number cushion for the last AWA pilot hired. Maybe that is spreading it out to you, but not where I come from and certainly, noone could have predicted that only 25% of the furloughees would return, not even the almighty Nicolau.

Guppie:

It ain't the number....it is the progression and the end game.

A350

 

[PositiveRate]

You were furloughed. You did not have a job and do not deserve to use anyone on the West as furlough protection.

Spin it however you like, call me whatever names you'd like, but that's the reality. It can't be re-written. The arbitration is done, the list is done, East MEC receivership is near, the contract will be done and at every stage of their losing battle there will be outcry from the East.

I look at you guys like the South. You fight honorably for dishonorable and immoral causes.

I still have hope for the future, but there is nothing we can say on this forum that will change in anyway what was and what will be.