New 1500 hour rule first affected

[Dumb Pilot]

It doesn't seem right that a military pilot can fly heavies with a few hundred hours, but not a civilian. But I like the pressure it puts on regionals.

Civilian pilots with 5 or 6 hundred hours total time on the right seat of a heavy happens all the time, it has been like that for decades. At one point you had them here in the states as well, in all depends where the market falls in the whole supply and demand equation! The whole 1,500 hours requirement is just stupid, it doesn't address the problem and it was just a political "feel good" measure, if you examine the recent regional crashes, all the crews had in excess of those hours!

The problem lies in cheap operators that work in terms of minimum margins, therefore they pay minimum wages, they spend the minimum in training, selection process, education of crew members and operations personnel etc. the concept of a line in the sand in terms of experience levels will not work while the entire structure is divided in two different standards between the majors and regionals.

 

[waveflyer]

I agree DP.

I disagree yip- what's new, right?

I think there's no replacing an aptitude for this job, but not every mil pilot has great aptitude, and not every civilian doesn't -

So back to DP's post- if the ones with great aptitude find better opportunities in other fields...that might be a problem-
I know I wouldn't do this career for less$

 

[pilotyip]

I agree DP.

I disagree yip- what's new, right?

I think there's no replacing an aptitude for this job, but not every mil pilot has great aptitude, and not every civilian doesn't -

So back to DP's post- if the ones with great aptitude find better opportunities in other fields...that might be a problem-
I know I wouldn't do this career for less$

We both agree with DP, therefore we agree. Not new we have done that before. We both agree the 1500 hour is stupid, it gives no credit for experience. BTW The Army felt the same way about aptitude during WWII, that is why they eliminated the college degree thing.

 

[scoreboardII]

The problem lies in cheap operators that work in terms of minimum margins, therefore they pay minimum wages, they spend the minimum in training, selection process, education of crew members and operations personnel etc. the concept of a line in the sand in terms of experience levels will not work while the entire structure is divided in two different standards between the majors and regionals.

Sort of Bingo, the problem is a structure which promotes a second tier pay to do flying. That issue is exacerbated by mainline willing to promote that B scale labor because they think they can draw the line in the sand and keep what they got, or get more because they let the cat out of the bag.

And how has that worked for the industry?

Solution, mainline needs to take back their flying. Even if they have mainline pilots flying RJ's at regional wages, they need to stop outsourcing, it results in a whipsaw no matter how many safeguards you have in place. A company will always default to cheapest labor. If a company is forced through market forces to pay a higher wage (mainline flying RJ's) then that cost is passed on the consumer, and all airlines will pass that cost, and a higher pay will result, instead of the current declining wage spiral we are in.

 

[pilotyip]

Sort of Bingo, the problem is a structure which promotes a second tier pay to do flying. That issue is exacerbated by mainline willing to promote that B scale labor because they think they can draw the line in the sand and keep what they got, or get more because they let the cat out of the bag.

And how has that worked for the industry?

Solution, mainline needs to take back their flying. Even if they have mainline pilots flying RJ's at regional wages, they need to stop outsourcing, it results in a whipsaw no matter how many safeguards you have in place. A company will always default to cheapest labor. If a company is forced through market forces to pay a higher wage (mainline flying RJ's) then that cost is passed on the consumer, and all airlines will pass that cost, and a higher pay will result, instead of the current declining wage spiral we are in.

and what brought you all of this, senior union pilots protecting their turf, pure economics in the form of I got mine

 

[redflyer65]

and what brought you all of this, senior union pilots protecting their turf, pure economics in the form of I got mine

Protecting their turf? Partially.

Include arrogance that those planes were beneath them to fly and add in a little extra pay for the final buy off. DONE!

 

[livin'thesim]

B747 or BE1900, if it is ticketed by your company, it should be flown by your pilot group, with the obvious exception being international codeshare with other large operators.

Rising mainline pay never translated into higher regional pay, partly because no matter how good regional pay got, guys usually wanted to leave for mainline, thus giving incentives for pilots to give up pay for growth.

A-list hollywood actors are making more than ever, but extras still work for free hoping for their big chance.

The big mistake was mainline pilots thinking they were "above" flying those "little airplanes". And here we are.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Are you talking about what your company is doing right now with the AT guys on the 737? Why different pay on same plane type? Shame on you and your union for agreeing to that. That is outsourcing. If not, tell me why? You can't.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Really?

You keep saying "tell me why." Then people keep telling you why. Then you pretend that no one ever said anything about it, so you can keep pretending that you have an actual argument.

AirTran pilots get the payscale that their union negotiated for the type of flying that their airline does. That's how much salary can be afforded based on that airline's business model. It's that friggin' simple. That the airline now has a new owner doesn't change the type of airline that it is, nor how much expenses can be borne by the business's revenue plan. Are you really that dense?

Everyone who has a Southwest ID gets paid from the same payscale. Everyone who flies a plane that says "Southwest Airlines" gets paid from the same payscale. If anyone even puts a friggin' four-foot diameter sticker that says "Southwest Airlines" on a different airline's plane, their pilots get the same pay; or else we grieve it. And win. That precedent has been set. An acquired airline has an outsourced feed with RJs? It's terminated ASAP: just as soon as the already-sold tickets were honored, it's gone. That precedent has also already been set.

The current codeshare with AirTran is solely to capture money during the transition to an all-SWA fleet, to help fund future growth based of ROIC. It has a limited lifespan based on the absorption of AirTran, and ends at the end of 2014, along with AirTran as an airline. SWAPA allowed this one-time codeshare waiver solely to facilitate this absorption. Your airline (and others) do numerous outsourcing codeshares as a primary tenet of their business models--to avoid paying your higher wages to all the pilots who carry your passengers. It is permanent and enduring, and without it, these companies' business model would not work.

The previous near-international codeshare with Volaris is over. That type of codeshare was limited to that one company, by name, and to 2% decreasing to 1% ASMs (as opposed to 40-50% ASM outsourcing that legacies do). And it was only for minor flying that we weren't ready (or legally allowed) to do. Now it's gone, not to be replaced by anyone.

To pretend that any of that is even remotely similar to what most other airlines do (incl yours) is laughable. And by "laughable," I mean that every time you make that same inane argument when you have nothing else to say, people laugh at you.

Got it yet? Probably not. I'm sure that next week, you'll pretend once again that your same tired schtick is somehow again an unchallenged new argument, in an attempt to deflect from any criticism leveled about codesharing or outsourcing done by any other airline. Certainly there are valid criticisms one can level about Southwest Airlines. But codeshare, outsourcing, and scope are not on this list.

Please, General, do us all a favor--think up some new material for your comic routine.

Bubba

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The big mistake was mainline pilots thinking they were "above" flying those "little airplanes". And here we are.

I remember when Eastern outsourced the twin otter flying out of San Juan, I remember my old man saying it was the beginning of the end for this career (too bad I didn't listen) I don't think that there is a single young pilot that wouldn't fly regionals and turbo props for the current wages if they are accruing longevity within a brand. One culture, one level of safety, maintenance, dispatch criteria, wage scale, career progression, knowing that you will start at the right seat of a Saab or a Q400, but that if you start young enough, you can retire flying the type of flying you prefer (wide body international or domestic narrow body, it is up to you) one level of fatigue management with single set of work rules all across the board. The mentality of hiring so called "experienced" pilots at a major has to evolve as the market will evolve, it will come a time when the US will not produce an excess of pilots as related with the jobs available (the military drawing down the pilot factory with more use of drones, the cost associated with an individual undertaking the cost of training, etc.) the worldwide demand will continue to rise as new A/C deliveries increases, AB initio programs at the majors will become the norm in my view, it can be done right but that is something that can't be "nickel & dime"

 

[SAABaroowski]

How many younger guys fly long haul, unless you fly for Kalitta or World? What you say makes little sense. Again, looking at the source (you), it's understandable. There is a reason guys stay on INTL until the end, fewer legs, nice destinations with 24 hour layovers that most would want to visit, etc. If you've only done multiple leg days on domestic, you probably don't understand. It's not like MAC in the Air Force either. It's darn easy, relaxing, and pays well. But, I think you should stick to multiple leg day domestic, you're used to it.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

50 is too young to look 75. I have a lot of buddies in their 30's who fly to Europe exclusively and they look beaten to ********************, at least 15 years older. 24hr layover? Big F'ng deal, I'd rather travel on my own time with my family.