New 1500 hour rule first affected

[dicko]

I'd fly a 757 for $100/hr as a captain if my airline would line up next to yours. I'd probably pay for my training too.

Get a grip man.

This thing seems to have driven you over the edge. I'm a little worried about what you'll offer to do next - Women's clothing ? Prostituting yourself on the streets of Houston, then giving the proceeds to Smisek ?

 

[scoreboardII]

Well the problem is Bubba, the two previous Houston mayors were perfectly happy to extract enormous sums from Continental to build a huge airport under the pretext that Denver was legitimate and that IAH would be the marketplace. We built a lot of gates at IAH for all sorts of airlines to come in and compete. SWA is building five total, and 4 are SWA only?! Yeah, that's competition, in your world.

I think it's not only important to take a 30,000 foot view, but also a long term view. Here is a prediction I have, and it's based on what SWA behavior was at Love: You're not done yet crafting your operation at Hobby; This is a multi year project. There will be competitors moving into Hobby, and it's not going to go well for you. You guys think you're going offshore into a world that you'll easily succeed in. You're actually opening up a main artery to the entire SWA domestic market for some growing airlines South of the border. You think they're going to be happy sharing ONE gate? You think they're going to build their own terminal outside their own Country? I don't know for sure what you're up to, but I know it's coming. I would guess there is some legal maneuver, and SWA will want some federal help making sure the competition has to go to IAH for a certain period of time [years]. Or there will be some attempt at amending international airline agreements between Countries? Or maybe the chips will fall how they should and you get your ass kicked. I'd love to be a part of that. I'd fly a 757 for $100/hr as a captain if my airline would line up next to yours. I'd probably pay for my training too. Why not? Worked pretty good for you guys.

you are completely fabricating the HOU terminal issue. WE BUILT IT. SWA agreed to let one gate go to whomever wanted it. if another carrier wants more gates,
LET THEM BUILD IT.


What part of WE built it don't you get?

Your argument is completely baseless.

 

[SIG600]

We both agree with DP, therefore we agree. Not new we have done that before. We both agree the 1500 hour is stupid, it gives no credit for experience. BTW The Army felt the same way about aptitude during WWII, that is why they eliminated the college degree thing.

This is the same Army Air Corps that didn't think black men were smart enough, or had the aptitude to fly.

If the 1500 hour rule is stupid, then so is the 1200 hour rule for 135 ops. Or the 250 hour rule for a commercial licence. Or 40 hours for a PPL.

For those that want to make the military arguement with flight time, as has already been mentioned there is an intense weeding out and selection process. That doesn't mean the risk mitigation stops when they got their wings. I've had plenty of 300-400 hour total time nuggets on my wing going over the beach into Afghanistan or Iraq, but there were serious mission planning factors and risk mitigation from leadership with regards to those guys. When I was a new guy, the nuggets didn't go over the beach for the first three weeks while the senior guys got back in the saddle. As they gain experience we throttle that back. I've seen the same thing in the heavy world. New guy shows up, rides 3P for a few hundred hours only during cruise. Then they start working him into the right seat. By the time he's 2P qualified the guy has a few hundred if not a thousand or more hours by that point. Which are highly supervised/mentored.

So does that mean you are not coming to my birthday party, we are going to play pin the airplane on the aircraft carrier, should be right up your alley. BTW I do own an airplane, I teach people to fly for almost nothing, because it is fun to see these people's skills grow. Is that lowering the bar? BTW2 Why do hide behind a screen name, you probably have a lot to tell us of your Navy days?.

Cute game, I've had enough life altering moments doing it for real though. Congrats on donating your time to further the health of general aviation, so long as it's not at the expense of an aspiring CFI who legitimately needs to make money, otherwise you're just lowering the bar... still. I instruct on the side too. I don't need the money or the flight time, I enjoy it. But I won't charge less than the going rate otherwise I'm screwing other guys in the local area (also because my time is not worth $0 to me), and I'll only take students that either can't get to a full time CFI, or they're too loaded with students.

 

[Scoot 11]

Well, Scoot- w/ 6 airlines under my belt including an Alpa legacy, and a RJ op that contracted with delta and many others, throw all the sticks and stones you want scooter- I do have a point of reference - which is why I stick my nose in delta threads when DALPA takes their immense influence and does something as stupid as allowing more -900's- it comes from experience and actually flying the mainline routes I once flew in the right seat of a mainline jet in the right seat of a large RJ, while having on average thousands more PIC time than my younger captains - I'm sorry you want me to forget that scoot- but it's your myopic one airline world view that made it all happen.

Now, if you haven't figured it out- this thread isn't about SWA v delta - it's got a wider "scope" than that- so maybe you can participate in the actual subject??

No wavey. You're a chicken $hit hiding behind a keyboard, you're also a PFT troll who couldn't get hired anywhere else so he had to buy his job. How hypocritical, taking one of those outsourced jobs, you ********************ing sellout. If you really had any balls, you'd have told them to stuff that rj job, but you didn't. Why, because you're a sellout. Because of sellouts like you and swapa, we have "LCC's" who paid lower and had lousy benefits and no retirement. Enjoy your stagnation, and pray to whoever you call God you don't get furloughed again, cause its looking pretty bleak over at PFT land! Looks like your next job will be handing out favors at truck stops, instead of airports. Sellout!

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well the problem is Bubba, the two previous Houston mayors were perfectly happy to extract enormous sums from Continental to build a huge airport under the pretext that Denver was legitimate and that IAH would be the marketplace.

Why? Did you bribe them? Apparently not enough to ensure that you got your say in SWA matters.

We built a lot of gates at IAH for all sorts of airlines to come in and compete. SWA is building five total, and 4 are SWA only?! Yeah, that's competition, in your world.

That's BS. Continental built nothing for "other airlines' benefit." Municipal bonds built the majority of IAH, with Continental paying mainly for it's airline-specific stuff. Southwest is actually paying to build the building itself at HOU, with one extra gate for whomever. If there's more demand (right now, there's absolutely none), then the airport will expand further. That's how it works. That's how ALL airports work, including HOU and IAH.

I think it's not only important to take a 30,000 foot view, but also a long term view. Here is a prediction I have, and it's based on what SWA behavior was at Love: You're not done yet crafting your operation at Hobby; This is a multi year project. There will be competitors moving into Hobby, and it's not going to go well for you. You guys think you're going offshore into a world that you'll easily succeed in. You're actually opening up a main artery to the entire SWA domestic market for some growing airlines South of the border. You think they're going to be happy sharing ONE gate? You think they're going to build their own terminal outside their own Country?

I don't know how many, if any, foreign carriers will want to fly into HOU. Nor do you. But MY prediction is that most of them will want to go to IAH because they have code shares with you; we don't code share with anyone. Again, if more demand appears for HOU, then the airport will grow further. Do you really not know how this stuff works?

I don't know for sure what you're up to, but I know it's coming. I would guess there is some legal maneuver, and SWA will want some federal help making sure the competition has to go to IAH for a certain period of time [years].

Uh, Southwest has NEVER asked the Feds (or anyone else) to interfere with another airline's operations. That's YOUR airline that you're thinking of that does that, so I can see how you might make that mistake.

Or there will be some attempt at amending international airline agreements between Countries? Or maybe the chips will fall how they should and you get your ass kicked. I'd love to be a part of that. I'd fly a 757 for $100/hr as a captain if my airline would line up next to yours. I'd probably pay for my training too. Why not? Worked pretty good for you guys.

Southwest always let the chips fall where they may. We do our thing, and the competition is welcome to do their thing, or even to imitate us. And, of course, your airline is welcome to "line up next to ours" at Hobby. Use the free gate, or build your own. Whatever you want.

The fact is, that you guys want to fly out of IAH; you'd lose money at HOU without your domestic feed (just like we would at IAH without our domestic feed--but of course, that's your self-serving idea of "fair" competition). And clearly, HOU is not big enough for the massive Houston hub that you need. But on the other hand, I'm sure that your bosses would be grateful to hear you volunteering to fly 757s for $100/hr! What a guy!

Bubba

 

[slaquer5]

Good god. I have not come on in while . This thread has turned pretty nasty .


After reading scoots and flops posts, I am glad I have a remote starter for my truck, and and a conceal carry permit .

 

[SWA Bubba]

Good god. I have not come on in while . This thread has turned pretty nasty .


After reading scoots and flops posts, I am glad I have a remote starter for my truck, and and a conceal carry permit .

Yeah, this thread has taken some weird turns alright. But kudos to Dicko for finding an apropos way to bring the phrase "Sesame Street rim job" into the conversation. imp:

Bubba

 

[Flopgut]

you are completely fabricating the HOU terminal issue. WE BUILT IT. SWA agreed to let one gate go to whomever wanted it. if another carrier wants more gates,
LET THEM BUILD IT.


What part of WE built it don't you get?

Your argument is completely baseless.

Well, if you had to proceed like a traditional legacy (which you don't), you could expect as much access to their airport(s) as you give to them. So if you were a legacy you'd be done before you start, because ONE gate wouldn't cut it. But you're SWA, so I'm guessing Gary is greasing the wheels right now. You better hope he get's it done.

 

[Flopgut]

Get a grip man.

This thing seems to have driven you over the edge. I'm a little worried about what you'll offer to do next - Women's clothing ? Prostituting yourself on the streets of Houston, then giving the proceeds to Smisek ?

Yeah, uh, none of that. But I wouldn't mind if ALPA decided to assess us all [whatever amount] to sue the crap out of Gary and SWAPA on behalf of AirTran pilots. Best money I could spend...

 

[redflyer65]

Flop buddy, you've lost it.

You are angry that Southwest is paying for a terminal they want to use instead of using local bonds, etc?

Your company didn't even bother to really show up to the city council meetings. It was an embarrassment for you and the rest of the employees. It's over and done.

You want to fly internationally out of Hobby? Come on down and use the one open gate that SW provides, or build your own terminal. There's nothing stopping you. Have at it.

You'd like to sue Gary and SWAPA basically just because of your hatred of everything Southwest, it has nothing to do with Airtran.

As Dicko said, GET A GRIP man.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Well the problem is Bubba, the two previous Houston mayors were perfectly happy to extract enormous sums from Continental to build a huge airport under the pretext that Denver was legitimate and that IAH would be the marketplace. We built a lot of gates at IAH for all sorts of airlines to come in and compete. SWA is building five total, and 4 are SWA only?! Yeah, that's competition, in your world.

Where did CAL get it's gates in EWR? OOps, don't want to dig up that little nugget in CAL history! (Hint - they were swiped from an airline whose airplanes has two blue stripes on the outsides and valiant men of honor on the inside).

 

[waveflyer]

No wavey. You're a chicken $hit hiding behind a keyboard, you're also a PFT troll who couldn't get hired anywhere else so he had to buy his job. How hypocritical, taking one of those outsourced jobs, you ********************ing sellout. If you really had any balls, you'd have told them to stuff that rj job, but you didn't. Why, because you're a sellout. Because of sellouts like you and swapa, we have "LCC's" who paid lower and had lousy benefits and no retirement. Enjoy your stagnation, and pray to whoever you call God you don't get furloughed again, cause its looking pretty bleak over at PFT land! Looks like your next job will be handing out favors at truck stops, instead of airports. Sellout!

Somebody bled through the maxi pad again...

 

[pilotyip]

Where did CAL get it's gates in EWR? OOps, don't want to dig up that little nugget in CAL history! (Hint - they were swiped from an airline whose airplanes has two blue stripes on the outsides and valiant men of honor on the inside).

not to mention the stealing of blue strips computer reservation system.

 

[slaquer5]

Yeah, uh, none of that. But I wouldn't mind if ALPA decided to assess us all [whatever amount] to sue the crap out of Gary and SWAPA on behalf of AirTran pilots. Best money I could spend...

Serious Dude

You have a problem , you need to seek help. You have a sickness .



I am just trying to help you out.

 

[Flopgut]

not to mention the stealing of blue strips computer reservation system.

Where did CAL get it's gates in EWR? OOps, don't want to dig up that little nugget in CAL history! (Hint - they were swiped from an airline whose airplanes has two blue stripes on the outsides and valiant men of honor on the inside).

I think you two have confused Eastern with Peoples Express... Don't know how, but I'm not surprised.

*FL did a lot of bad stuff!! I'm not sure how you guys do this, but too many of you completely forget that CAL and TI pilots also struck and fought Frank. What's being done here is really a different animal.

 

[Flopgut]

Let's all just wait and see before we rule on my diagnosis, ok? It's not going to take long now. Another airline, or multiple airlines, or airlines from South of the border are going to be snubbed at HOU and it will be SWA behind the scenes. I already see some airspace changes in the works, and the C&BP situation is changing. The terminal was the easy part, now Gary has to keep the competition out.

 

[slaquer5]

Let's all just wait and see before we rule on my diagnosis, ok? It's not going to take long now. Another airline, or multiple airlines, or airlines from South of the border are going to be snubbed at HOU and it will be SWA behind the scenes. I already see some airspace changes in the works, and the C&BP situation is changing. The terminal was the easy part, now Gary has to keep the competition out.

Are you for real .


What do you think Mexico , S Amer. Cen. Amer. care. about ?

It's low fare, lots of business and leisure travelers .

Not how much money there local airline can make .

I am sure Houston has. CC. Thats community college . You might want to take a class . Your GED. Is not cutting it .


As you have said may times you would fly basically for free to put the hurt on SWA. What you should do is start a petition w the New UAL pilots to work for free for the next 10 years w a promises from your CEO to go after SWA.

I am sure you will become very popular


Easy breezy your pay is set and most would not even care about how the new senority list goes .

 

[Flopgut]

Good god. I have not come on in while . This thread has turned pretty nasty .


After reading scoots and flops posts, I am glad I have a remote starter for my truck, and and a conceal carry permit .

I might be a bit institutionalized having worked this long at a legacy. Or, maybe it's because you SWA guys work at the airline equivalent of a Rogers and Hammerstein stage production? We sound different, but no one is in physical danger. Except for maybe how screwed up everything is going to be around Cancun and Cozumel when you guys start flying there. All Gary has to do is start preaching some "warrier spirit" speak and you guys will taxi at 50 knots, start fibbing about your speed/altitude, cancelling IFR or begging for outlandish visuals. I swear that's the nicest thing about flying down there: Everybody shares the airspace. I hope you guys don't act like fools on these new routes, but I'm not holding my breath.

Are you for real .


What do you think Mexico , S Amer. Cen. Amer. care. about ?

It's low fare, lots of business and leisure travelers .

Not how much money there local airline.

It's obvious you don't know much about the airline business South of the border. This is high revenue flying. These customers want assigned seats, food, and they don't want to ride with rif raf. You'll see no flip flops and tank tops apart from the US customers you bring in. Remember too that it didn't take passengers long to figure out all they had to do was buy two tickets and they basically got around the meat of the WA. It'll be no different at HOU. And the passengers have to go through C&BP anyway. They will buy one ticket to HOU on Interjet, Avianca, TACA, LAN, COPA, etc. and buy another on SWA out of HOU. The only thing stopping it at the moment is you've only allowed one gate for them.
*Trust me, that scenario is going to play out. Unless you're giving away the International leg, the passenger is going to want to patronize the home team as much as possible. They won't hesitate to buy a cheap ticket thru the US on SWA, but as soon as you get them back to HOU they're going to want to get back on the airplane that feels like they are already home.

 

[canyonblue]

I might be a bit institutionalized having worked this long at a legacy. Or, maybe it's because you SWA guys work at the airline equivalent of a Rogers and Hammerstein stage production? We sound different, but no one is in physical danger. Except for maybe how screwed up everything is going to be around Cancun and Cozumel when you guys start flying there. All Gary has to do is start preaching some "warrier spirit" speak and you guys will taxi at 50 knots, start fibbing about your speed/altitude, cancelling IFR or begging for outlandish visuals. I swear that's the nicest thing about flying down there: Everybody shares the airspace. I hope you guys don't act like fools on these new routes, but I'm not holding my breath.

Another rant of stupidity. Get's old pretty quick.

 

[dicko]

Yeah, uh, none of that. But I wouldn't mind if ALPA decided to assess us all [whatever amount] to sue the crap out of Gary and SWAPA on behalf of AirTran pilots. Best money I could spend...

Too late. We're already letting the freak flag fly - We're suing ourselves and taking Gary and SWAPA to the arbitrator.

 

[dicko]

going over the beach into Afghanistan .

Beaches in Afghanistan ? Remarkable.

 

[SIG600]

Beaches in Afghanistan ? Remarkable.

It's an hour and a half transit through Pakistan, up the blvd from the North Arabian sea. Yes, you have to cross a beach. Looked like a nice one too, there is some kind of little resort looking town on the water at the Iran/Pakistan border. May have just been another shtty fishing village though.

 

[fam62c]

Somehow these small airlines think they are entitled to a ready supply of pilots willing to do the job for nothing, they are not. Not every little community is entitled to air service, people can drive to a bigger city and fly from there. The bottom line is that if a Part 121 airline can't offer compensation sufficient to attract and maintain qualified employees then they do not have a viable business and that is that. As an airline pilots I'm not going to shed any tears if flying migrates to larger airplanes operated by larger companies that offer a better career and more compensation.

 

[fam62c]

I hope the knee jerk reaction to all this is NOT raising the retirement age, but I fear that will happen...ICAO first, then us...too many factors support it: a looming demographic driven pilot shortage, smaller military, and now this ridiculous law...work till you die will be the future of commercial aviation....unless the drones take over...

I agree but that's a stop-gap measure that will do as much to make the problem worse as it does to solve it. The more they extend the age the more it slows hiring at the bottom and delays career progression. As this happens the career becomes less and less attractive to potential new pilots and fewer and fewer young people will enter the field. Sooner or later you will hit the point where older pilots either start to become medically disqualified at higher rates and/or actually (if you can believe it) WANT to retire. When that happens you will have a nearly empty pipeline for replacements.

The switch from 60 to 65 coupled with the severe economic downturn and the massive cost of getting qualified has turned young people off to the point where almost nobody seriously considers commercial piloting as a viable career option.

 

[scoreboardII]

It's obvious you don't know much about the airline business South of the border. This is high revenue flying. These customers want assigned seats, food, and they don't want to ride with rif raf. You'll see no flip flops and tank tops apart from the US customers you bring in. Remember too that it didn't take passengers long to figure out all they had to do was buy two tickets and they basically got around the meat of the WA. It'll be no different at HOU. And the passengers have to go through C&BP anyway. They will buy one ticket to HOU on Interjet, Avianca, TACA, LAN, COPA, etc. and buy another on SWA out of HOU. The only thing stopping it at the moment is you've only allowed one gate for them.
*Trust me, that scenario is going to play out. Unless you're giving away the International leg, the passenger is going to want to patronize the home team as much as possible. They won't hesitate to buy a cheap ticket thru the US on SWA, but as soon as you get them back to HOU they're going to want to get back on the airplane that feels like they are already home.

So, you're saying the flip flop low paying crowd won't use SWA, but then mention TACA/LAN/COPA, and fail to note Spirit and Allegiant, not to mention another LCC, lets see who are they, oh yes, AirTran.

You are all over the map, you can't even make a logical argument.

 

[scoreboardII]

Somehow these small airlines think they are entitled to a ready supply of pilots willing to do the job for nothing, they are not. Not every little community is entitled to air service, people can drive to a bigger city and fly from there. The bottom line is that if a Part 121 airline can't offer compensation sufficient to attract and maintain qualified employees then they do not have a viable business and that is that. As an airline pilots I'm not going to shed any tears if flying migrates to larger airplanes operated by larger companies that offer a better career and more compensation.

^^^^^^^^^^ This needs to be a bumper sticker

 

[scoreboardII]

I agree but that's a stop-gap measure that will do as much to make the problem worse as it does to solve it. The more they extend the age the more it slows hiring at the bottom and delays career progression. As this happens the career becomes less and less attractive to potential new pilots and fewer and fewer young people will enter the field. Sooner or later you will hit the point where older pilots either start to become medically qualified at higher rates and/or actually (if you can believe it) WANT to retire. When that happens you will have a nearly empty pipeline for replacements.

The switch from 60 to 65 coupled with the severe economic downturn and the massive cost of getting qualified has turned young people off to the point where almost nobody seriously considers commercial piloting as a viable career option.

I have two smart boys, they refuse to consider a career in flying knowing they'll be living our of a van for the first ten or fifteen years.

 

[redflyer65]

So, you're saying the flip flop low paying crowd won't use SWA, but then mention TACA/LAN/COPA, and fail to note Spirit and Allegiant, not to mention another LCC, lets see who are they, oh yes, AirTran.

You are all over the map, you can't even make a logical argument.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

All these countries want First Class and full amenities according to Flop. That's the exact opposite of what I've observed. I've seen legacies pull away with coach completely full and one person in first class. Spirit goes everywhere down there, and I'm pretty sure they are full.

Try again Flop.

 

[pilotyip]

I have two smart boys, they refuse to consider a career in flying knowing they'll be living our of a van for the first ten or fifteen years.

Never can tell sometimes the best time to get into something is when everyone says don't get into it. I think of Ford Motor Company in Dec 2008. Everyone said it is going BK, it stock is worthless at $1.78 a share.

 

[Flopgut]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

All these countries want First Class and full amenities according to Flop. That's the exact opposite of what I've observed. I've seen legacies pull away with coach completely full and one person in first class. Spirit goes everywhere down there, and I'm pretty sure they are full.

Try again Flop.

I didn't say they were seated in first class necessarily. I'm saying they pay more for tickets. They like assigned seats and to be fed most generally.

So, you're saying the flip flop low paying crowd won't use SWA, but then mention TACA/LAN/COPA, and fail to note Spirit and Allegiant, not to mention another LCC, lets see who are they, oh yes, AirTran.

You are all over the map, you can't even make a logical argument.

We don't have a common frame of reference. I didn't fail to mention Spirit and Allegiant or Airtran. There is nothing devious about how they operate. With SWA there most definitely is. You're going to show up (with a lot of fanfare) and with no codeshare (which means you think you're entitled to have all the money go one way [you]). These foreign airlines are going to start to question why you think you're entitled to space on their airports and in their terminals and you don't make the same [equal] accommodation for them?

This is where Gary will step in with the next part of the plan.