New 1500 hour rule first affected

[njcapt]

Fact is, if they paid a living wage, they're have no problem finding pilots and wouldn't have to come up with bullish!t excuses to the media and flying public as to why they can't maintain their schedule.

No kidding - 16 bucks per flight hour to start. $14,400 per year at min guarantee. That's what I got at Eagle in 1995 and I bailed after four months because I got recalled from furlough to a job paying twice as much.

The regionals are going to try everything they can think of to attract talent with 1500TT in the next few years - except raising starting pay.

 

[redflyer65]

I guess you could also say that of 6327 Southwest pilots that you claim paid for their job only a small percentage would have had that opportunity if they outsourced their flying at the rate of most legacies.

If SWA outsourced 53% of their flying like American they would need only 2973 pilots.
If SWA outsourced 54% of their flying like Delta they would need only 2910 pilots.
If SWA outsourced 65% of their flying like United they would need only 2214 pilots.

Just think how much those 2900 pilot would make if SW outsourced that flying like Delta. That would have to be a payoff of at least 60% more pay to outsource that much flying! What a great idea.

 

[justin15e]

No kidding - 16 bucks per flight hour to start. $14,400 per year at min guarantee. That's what I got at Eagle in 1995 and I bailed after four months because I got recalled from furlough to a job paying twice as much.

The regionals are going to try everything they can think of to attract talent with 1500TT in the next few years - except raising starting pay.

The regional model doesn't work if they have to pay a living wage.

The regionals have relied on PFT (pay for training) essentially for the last decade if not longer. People are no longer paying for training because in the past you were an FO for a year or two, then CA for 3-5 years, then you go up to a major/LCC etc. However, over the last decade, FOs at regionals have seen 5-7 year upgrades.

1-2 years at 15K sucks, but can be done with help.

5-7 is is just BS.

Hopefully the regionals will die altogether. A shrinkage of flying will occur initially, but the flying will be taken back to the parent companies, and small communities will lose service.

Most RJ guys will get jobs at the majors, where they belong.

 

[CaptSeth]

Justin, I beg to differ. If people have to pay an additional $5/ticket to ride on that regional airliner, then so be it. If the market will not tolerate that fare, then the aircraft should be parked, and the relevant market should lose the service. I do not believe that professional pilots need to subsidize air service - that's the governments job - when required (EAS), and it is the consumer's job to either pay a fair price for the service offered, or take an alternate form of transportation if the cost is not in their price range.

For reference, I made $20/hr as an FO on a BE99 in 1989 - almost a quarter century ago, in a 15 passenger aircraft.

Also, not all regionals rely on PFT - just the ultra-sh!tty ones.

 

[wms]

1500 hours doesn't make a good pilot. Some of the ones getting hired now got passed up with 500 hours. Now they have another 1000 hours of reinforcing bad habits.

As far as alpa and sully and skiles, this wasn't about safer pilots, it was about hammering the regionals through staffing. That said, I agree with replacing regional flying with mainline, but don't do it through a sham safety agenda. The families of 3407 deserve better than to be exploited that way.

 

[General Lee]

It's actually worse than just 50%.

American
Total Daily Flights: 6,446
Mainline Flights: 3,055 ? 47%
Outsourced Flights: 3,391 ? 53%

Delta
Total Daily Flights: 4,684
Mainline Flights: 2,149 ? 46%
Outsourced Flights: 2,535 ? 54%

United
Total Daily Flights: 5,024
Mainline Daily Flights: 1,735 ? 35%
Outsourced Daily Flights: 3,289 ? 65%

SWA+AT
Total Daily Flights: 3,368
Mainline Flights: 3,368 ? 100%
Outsourced Flights: 0



United States Total Daily Flights: 21,913
Mainline American: 3,055 ? 13.94%
Mainline Delta: 2,149 ? 9.81%
Mainline United: 1,735 ? 7.92%
SWA+AT: 3,368 ? 15.37%
Mainline Outsourced Regionals: 9,215 ? 42%
Others: 2,391 ? 10.9%

http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2013/06/19/19/52/ePrcN.La.91.jpg

Hi Howie. Well, the latest DL contract will cut 140 RJs total from the current fleet (210 50 seaters leaving, while 70 76 seaters will be added), and that will significantly cut regional feed, while at the same time adding 88 of your 717s, recapturing a ton of DCI flying. Of course you and your Corndog associates forget to mention any of that. Sure, it got bad, but now it is getting better. Hub and spoke systems that include smaller communities, even some that your airline is dropping for good (17 former AT cities), and that shows certain mainline planes can't make money to every city.

Also, Volaris does take some of your pax to certain Mexican cities your airline doesn't want to fly to. Heck, only AT guys can currently fly to Mexico for you, at lower rates and the same plane you fly. Are you sure you don't outsource routes to cheaper pilots? I think you do Howie. Loser!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Just think how much those 2900 pilot would make if SW outsourced that flying like Delta. That would have to be a payoff of at least 60% more pay to outsource that much flying! What a great idea.

You do outsource flying to cheaper pilots, your new brothers and sisters at AT! They fly 737s too, at cheaper rates and a worse contract. Unbelievable. When other airlines merged, the FIRST thing to do was to get equal pay for same sized planes. What the heck did you guys do? Who came up with that plan? Oh yeah, never mind......wow! Someone owes a CEO payback during the next contract talks.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Stuck on troll repeat general Lee

At least try and make good arguments

 

[canyonblue]

Wow, Way to go swapa. Lowering the bar, paying for that job, 1 type rating at a time!

I'd rather pay to work at Southwest over Delta any day. Go ahead and keep dreaming that Delto is such a fabulous place to work, even the usual dorks on this site can't make it appealing.

 

[canyonblue]

Stuck on troll repeat general Lee

At least try and make good arguments

He's useless. uke:

 

[General Lee]

I'd rather pay to work at Southwest over Delta any day. Go ahead and keep dreaming that Delto is such a fabulous place to work, even the usual dorks on this site can't make it appealing.

Yeah, actual OPTIONS when it comes to type of flying, types of aircraft, and not having to do 25 min turns and multiple leg days forever in one type plane. Throw in frosty receptions from your future brothers and sisters that were treated poorly, and that sounds like a blast Canyonblue! Enjoy 5 legs from BWI to ONT tomorrow, that sounds awful, even at your payrate. Wow, barf!!! I can maybe see some younger RJ type pilots maybe enjoying that for a few years, but a career of that would be awful.... Guys at the legacies move upward and outward (INTL) as they grow older and more senior. Enjoy that 13 leg 3 day worth 26 trips.... Yutz!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

No kidding - 16 bucks per flight hour to start. $14,400 per year at min guarantee. That's what I got at Eagle in 1995 and I bailed after four months because I got recalled from furlough to a job paying twice as much.

The regionals are going to try everything they can think of to attract talent with 1500TT in the next few years - except raising starting pay.

We need a new law. Rasie the age for 121 F/O's to 95. Many of us love to fly and don't need the money. Build schedules of a week on, rest of the month off. Give us $500 a month, jumpseat, privileges, and chance to pass along a life time of learning to a new generation. Where do I sign up? Having a big birthday party for my 70th in September, anyone in the KYIP area is invited. PM me for details.

 

[livin'thesim]

The ATP rule will likely drive up competition for part 135 and instructing jobs, therefor driving down wages.

We could see low-end 135 outfits once again requiring pay for training and even pay for flight time.

 

[livin'thesim]

As many have predicted, there will probably be a painful shortage at the companies that have the least to offer their pilots.

I would not be surprised to see a couple bottom feeder airlines go right out of business.

It is also possible that super-crappy 135 operators will experience trouble as well. Although it will not be for lack of FOs, since there will be a line a million miles long for any job not requiring 1500 hours.

But left-seaters could pose a problem. However, one possible economic effect is that pay will shift from right seat to left, even more than it is right now.

It is plausible to see a case where a 135 operator will sweeten the pay package to retain a PIC, and subsidize it by paying slave wages for the FO or requiring them to pay for training. Or pay for time even.

The 9 seat commuter thing is something I had not thought of though. There could be a resurgence of super-small 9-pax plus cargo operators for some remote areas. Maybe I should find a couple King Air 200s and start a commuter certificate.

 

[SIG600]

We need a new law. Rasie the age for 121 F/O's to 95. Many of us love to fly and don't need the money. Build schedules of a week on, rest of the month off. Give us $500 a month, jumpseat, privileges, and chance to pass along a life time of learning to a new generation. Where do I sign up? Having a big birthday party for my 70th in September, anyone in the KYIP area is invited. PM me for details.

You just can't stop lowering the bar can you?

Fvck all those guys trying to earn a liveable wage and move up the career progression ladder. As long as you get to keep flying you'll do it for nothing. If you're so well off, why don't you buy your own airplane, then pay yourself nothing to fly that?

 

[SAABaroowski]

Yeah, actual OPTIONS when it comes to type of flying, types of aircraft, and not having to do 25 min turns and multiple leg days forever in one type plane. Throw in frosty receptions from your future brothers and sisters that were treated poorly, and that sounds like a blast Canyonblue! Enjoy 5 legs from BWI to ONT tomorrow, that sounds awful, even at your payrate. Wow, barf!!! I can maybe see some younger RJ type pilots maybe enjoying that for a few years, but a career of that would be awful.... Guys at the legacies move upward and outward (INTL) as they grow older and more senior. Enjoy that 13 leg 3 day worth 26 trips.... Yutz!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Talk about growing older, I feel sorry for the long haul guys. They look 75 years old when they break into their 50s.........

 

[SAABaroowski]

You just can't stop lowering the bar can you?

Fvck all those guys trying to earn a liveable wage and move up the career progression ladder. As long as you get to keep flying you'll do it for nothing. If you're so well off, why don't you buy your own airplane, then pay yourself nothing to fly that?

He was kidding, no way anyone's life is that F'ng sad they would rather fly 121 in their "golden years" then actually doing something fun

 

[pilotyip]

You just can't stop lowering the bar can you?

Fvck all those guys trying to earn a liveable wage and move up the career progression ladder. As long as you get to keep flying you'll do it for nothing. If you're so well off, why don't you buy your own airplane, then pay yourself nothing to fly that?

So does that mean you are not coming to my birthday party, we are going to play pin the airplane on the aircraft carrier, should be right up your alley. BTW I do own an airplane, I teach people to fly for almost nothing, because it is fun to see these people's skills grow. Is that lowering the bar? BTW2 Why do hide behind a screen name, you probably have a lot to tell us of your Navy days?

He was kidding, no way anyone's life is that F'ng sad they would rather fly 121 in their "golden years" then actually doing something fun

I was making a funny, but some people are so self righteous, they just have no sense of humor.

 

[Jetjockey]

We need a new law. Rasie the age for 121 F/O's to 95. Many of us love to fly and don't need the money. Build schedules of a week on, rest of the month off. Give us $500 a month, jumpseat, privileges, and chance to pass along a life time of learning to a new generation. Where do I sign up? Having a big birthday party for my 70th in September, anyone in the KYIP area is invited. PM me for details.

Amazing. You may not need they money but some do and actually make a career out of it. Perhaps handing out carts at your local Wal-Mart is in your future. At least you'd make around the $500 that seems to meet your income requirement.

 

[madjack]

I hope the knee jerk reaction to all this is NOT raising the retirement age, but I fear that will happen...ICAO first, then us...too many factors support it: a looming demographic driven pilot shortage, smaller military, and now this ridiculous law...work till you die will be the future of commercial aviation....unless the drones take over...