New 1500 hour rule first affected

[Scoot 11]

I'd rather pay to work at Southwest over Delta any day. Go ahead and keep dreaming that Delto is such a fabulous place to work, even the usual dorks on this site can't make it appealing.

Canyonblue. I'm glad for you. Have you ever worked for Delta? if not then you have no basis for comparison, much like I have no basis for comparison to my job at Southwest. I never stated Delta is a fabulous place to work. Frankly I have nothing to compare it to, because its been my only AIRLINE JOB for 21 years! Why is it that you and dickheads like waveflyer constantly leave your circle jerk and intrude on Delta threads? From the looks of things you guys are going to be in trouble with an over abundance of staffing. Probably in the neighborhood of 400 pilots overstaffed. Your company has cancelled its ETOPS program, there is NO growth, hiring, and abundant stagnation, and you are in negotiations with a bean counter. herb is gone. Welcome to the world of, "just another legacy." Throw in a bankruptcy and you've officially broke your cherry.
I really don't give a frogs fat ass what you, your girl redflyer or that rim job wave think about my company. My overall point is that you girls are throwing stones in a glass house, and the ground is now shaking beneath you.
Good luck to you. You are sounding nervous, and you should be.

 

[dicko]

that rim job wave

Wave cannot be a "Rim Job" ........... Because its a verb. Remember Sesame Street - If its an action word, it's a verb. Now, he may perform the before mentioned action. But that's a discussion for another time.




Just wanted to use "rim job" and Sesame Street in the same sentence. Not a lot of opportunities for that sort of thing these days. Thanks for your patience.

 

[waveflyer]

Well, Scoot- w/ 6 airlines under my belt including an Alpa legacy, and a RJ op that contracted with delta and many others, throw all the sticks and stones you want scooter- I do have a point of reference - which is why I stick my nose in delta threads when DALPA takes their immense influence and does something as stupid as allowing more -900's- it comes from experience and actually flying the mainline routes I once flew in the right seat of a mainline jet in the right seat of a large RJ, while having on average thousands more PIC time than my younger captains - I'm sorry you want me to forget that scoot- but it's your myopic one airline world view that made it all happen.

Now, if you haven't figured it out- this thread isn't about SWA v delta - it's got a wider "scope" than that- so maybe you can participate in the actual subject??

 

[Flopgut]

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that, so long as Love Field remained open as an airport, the City of Dallas could not preclude Southwest from operating from the field, but it in no way excluded others from operating there.

Any and all carriers were and are free to operate at DAL as long as they choose to operate within the constraints of the Wright Amendment. Passenger service on regular mid-sized and large aircraft can be provided from Love Field only to locations within Texas and the four neighboring US states: Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and New Mexico. Later modified to include Alabama, Kansas and Mississippi and Missouri. Longhaul service to other states is permissible only on commuter aircraft with no more capacity than 56 passengers.

There is a reason this thing is complicated and even lawyers get tied up for decades over it. So let's not all get the equivalent of a law degree citing this. Now I do see, and this jives with what I seem to remember as fact, in subpart there is this:

(b) Except as provided in subsections (a) and (c), notwithstanding any other provision of law, or any certificate or other authority heretofore or hereafter issued thereunder, no person shall provide or offer to provide the transportation of individuals, by air, for compensation or hire as a common carrier between Love Field, Texas, and one or more points outside the State of Texas, except that a person providing service to a point outside of Texas from Love Field on November 1, 1979 may continue to provide service to such point.

I think the date is erroneous, but what it says if you were still at Love Field (which SWA was the only one on the date that happened to be picked) you could stay and have the four states you already were doing. I mean, it's obviously written to take care of SWA. Braniff and American were over at DFW already. After this was written, they couldn't go back with airplanes bigger than 56 seats. Perfectly happy to keep it like this (no Love competition) SWA waited til they wanted more areas and then concocted more legislation to get more states.

What would it be worth to have that kind of competitive advantage today? Can you imagine what say Virgin could do if California gave them a monopoly on an airport...

 

[Flopgut]

"SWA has the ingredients they needed handed to them"? Well, I suppose that if by "ingredients" you mean one frivolous lawsuit after another, and then after they all failed, finally having your stooge Congressman insert a specifically anti-SWA law into the books to directly hobble us, then I suppose we have had a lot of things "handed to us." Personally, I think we would have preferred to have done without, however. We've literally had to fight for everything we've done or tried to do.

There is going to be a new FIS in Houston just to take care of SWA. The fact you are paying for the construction ought to be even MORE of a red flag, but in airline world it's not. A completely pertinent precedent is being thrown out so you can be spared competition to fly international flights. It's as corrupt as corrupt gets.

 

[Flopgut]

Now, if you haven't figured it out- this thread isn't about SWA v delta - it's got a wider "scope" than that- so maybe you can participate in the actual subject??

The Constitution was amended to give you a scope advantage Wave. That's what the WA basically was. SWA kept 737s, and everyone else was limited to 56. Pretty easy for you to talk...

 

[scoreboardII]

so flop, as long as the anti-competitive law favors your company, it's OK. Got it.

 

[SWA Bubba]

There is going to be a new FIS in Houston just to take care of SWA. The fact you are paying for the construction ought to be even MORE of a red flag, but in airline world it's not. A completely pertinent precedent is being thrown out so you can be spared competition to fly international flights. It's as corrupt as corrupt gets.

We're not being spared anything. You, and anyone else are free to fly international out of HOU. In fact, if there's enough more demand after we start, I'll bet you'll see the airport expanding the facilities for anyone who wants to compete. The "new FIS" being built will service ANY airline who wants to fly international out of HOU.

Your ideas of "competition" are laughable. You want us to fly international out of an airport none of our customers are (IAH), while you get to fly international out of your giant hub where ALL of your customers are. You keep avoiding the question, so I'll ask it again, Flop: How is that "fair competition"? Tell me, Flop, what's unfair about you flying your business model out of the airports YOU want to fly out of; and we'll fly our business model out of the airports that WE want to fly out of? How could that be unfair?

The FAA has a statutory responsibility to provide service to any airline at any suitable airport; not just the airports that Continental/United approve of their competitors flying out of.

And while there is NO "pertinent precedent being thrown out" (I pointed out earlier how you had wildly mis-interpreted the Denver situation), I do agree that you should know corruption. It was, after all, YOUR airline that has a criminal record for illegally trying to kill Southwest. I guess that in this case, you didn't pay off enough Houstonians to get them to ignore the law and screw Southwest for you.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

The Constitution was amended to give you a scope advantage Wave. That's what the WA basically was. SWA kept 737s, and everyone else was limited to 56. Pretty easy for you to talk...

Dude.

You misread it. Again. First of all, the Wright Amendment was not an amendment to the Constitution, it was an amendment added to an unrelated but vital bill, since this was the only way Rep Wright could get it passed (first attempt on its own was defeated).

More importantly, the text you quoted did NOT give any special preference to Southwest.* The part you quoted (section (b)) is superseded for ALL airlines by section (c) to the border states that Southwest flew to. That means ANY airline could fly from Love Field to the same cities as Southwest. No "good deal" or "airport monopoly" for Southwest.

The reason for that section was to avoid the obvious legal fight that would ensue if Wright tried to criminalize a current, legal business behavior. So basically, it said, you can keep doing what you're doing now, but you can't expand outside of your current footprint from Love.

Specifically, the section (b) that you quoted, said you can't fly out of Texas unless you're already doing it. But then section (c) said that section (b) doesn't apply to [anyone] flying to the border states. You must have forgotten to read that part. Section (b) would have allowed flying from Love to NYC, if anyone had been doing it at the time. Section (c) said that no one else could fly beyond the border states. Trust me, it was crafted specifically to hobble Southwest in the future without criminalizing current behavior. The bottom line was that anyone could fly where they wanted out of Love Field as long as those destinations were in Texas or the border states (since that was where people were flying at the time).

So you're wrong again, Flop. The Wright Amendment gave NO special "help" to Southwest Airlines whatsoever, no matter how much you want it to be the case. All it did was hobble Southwest, as designed, and protect the other airlines from having to compete with a low-cost carrier in north Texas. It was created by Jim Wright, who represented Fort Worth's, and essentially, American Airlines', interests.

Bubba

*Full Wright Amendment text (from Wikipedia), and I highlighted the pertinent portions:

(a) Except as provided in subsection (c), notwithstanding any other provision of law, neither the Secretary of Transportation, the Civil Aeronautics Board, nor any other officer or employee of the United States shall issue, reissue, amend, revise, or otherwise modify (either by action or inaction) any certificate or other authority to permit or otherwise authorize any person to provide the transportation of individuals, by air, as a common carrier for compensation or hire between Love Field, Texas, and one or more points outside the State of Texas, except (1) charter air transportation not to exceed ten flights per month, and (2) air transportation provided by commuter airlines operating aircraft with a passenger capacity of 56 passengers or less.

(b) Except as provided in subsections (a) and (c), notwithstanding any other provision of law, or any certificate or other authority heretofore or hereafter issued thereunder, no person shall provide or offer to provide the transportation of individuals, by air, for compensation or hire as a common carrier between Love Field, Texas, and one or more points outside the State of Texas, except that a person providing service to a point outside of Texas from Love Field on November 1, 1979 may continue to provide service to such point.

(c) Subsections (a) and (b) shall not apply with respect to, and it is found consistent with the public convenience and necessity to authorize, transportation of individuals, by air, on a flight between Love Field, Texas, and one or more points within the States of Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Texas by an air carrier, if (1) such air carrier does not offer or provide any through service or ticketing with another air carrier or foreign air carrier, and (2) such air carrier does not offer for sale transportation to or from, and the flight or aircraft does not serve, any point which is outside any such State. Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to give authority not otherwise provided by law to the Secretary of Transportation, the Civil Aeronautics Board, any other officer or employee of the United States, or any other person.

(d) This section shall not take effect if enacted after the enactment of the Aviation Safety and Noise Abatement Act of 1979.

 

[Flopgut]

We're not being spared anything. You, and anyone else are free to fly international out of HOU. In fact, if there's enough more demand after we start, I'll be you'll see the airport expanding the facilities for anyone who wants to compete. The "new FIS" being built will service ANY airline who wants to fly international out of HOU.

Your ideas of "competition" are laughable. You want us to fly international out of an airport none of our customers are (IAH), while you get to fly international out of your giant hub where ALL of your customers are. You keep avoiding the question, so I'll ask it again, Flop: How is that "fair competition"? Tell me, Flop, what's unfair about you flying your business model out of the airports YOU want to fly out of; and we'll fly our business model out of the airports that WE want to fly out of? How could that be unfair?

The FAA has a statutory responsibility to provide service to any airline at any suitable airport; not just the airports that Continental/United approve of their competitors flying out of.

And while there is NO "pertinent precedent being thrown out" (I pointed out earlier how you had wildly mis-interpreted the Denver situation), I do agree that you should know corruption. It was, after all, YOUR airline that has a criminal record for illegally trying to kill Southwest. I guess that in this case, you didn't pay off enough Houstonians to get them to ignore the law and screw Southwest for you.

Bubba

Well the problem is Bubba, the two previous Houston mayors were perfectly happy to extract enormous sums from Continental to build a huge airport under the pretext that Denver was legitimate and that IAH would be the marketplace. We built a lot of gates at IAH for all sorts of airlines to come in and compete. SWA is building five total, and 4 are SWA only?! Yeah, that's competition, in your world.

I think it's not only important to take a 30,000 foot view, but also a long term view. Here is a prediction I have, and it's based on what SWA behavior was at Love: You're not done yet crafting your operation at Hobby; This is a multi year project. There will be competitors moving into Hobby, and it's not going to go well for you. You guys think you're going offshore into a world that you'll easily succeed in. You're actually opening up a main artery to the entire SWA domestic market for some growing airlines South of the border. You think they're going to be happy sharing ONE gate? You think they're going to build their own terminal outside their own Country? I don't know for sure what you're up to, but I know it's coming. I would guess there is some legal maneuver, and SWA will want some federal help making sure the competition has to go to IAH for a certain period of time [years]. Or there will be some attempt at amending international airline agreements between Countries? Or maybe the chips will fall how they should and you get your ass kicked. I'd love to be a part of that. I'd fly a 757 for $100/hr as a captain if my airline would line up next to yours. I'd probably pay for my training too. Why not? Worked pretty good for you guys.

 

[dicko]

I'd fly a 757 for $100/hr as a captain if my airline would line up next to yours. I'd probably pay for my training too.

Get a grip man.

This thing seems to have driven you over the edge. I'm a little worried about what you'll offer to do next - Women's clothing ? Prostituting yourself on the streets of Houston, then giving the proceeds to Smisek ?

 

[scoreboardII]

Well the problem is Bubba, the two previous Houston mayors were perfectly happy to extract enormous sums from Continental to build a huge airport under the pretext that Denver was legitimate and that IAH would be the marketplace. We built a lot of gates at IAH for all sorts of airlines to come in and compete. SWA is building five total, and 4 are SWA only?! Yeah, that's competition, in your world.

I think it's not only important to take a 30,000 foot view, but also a long term view. Here is a prediction I have, and it's based on what SWA behavior was at Love: You're not done yet crafting your operation at Hobby; This is a multi year project. There will be competitors moving into Hobby, and it's not going to go well for you. You guys think you're going offshore into a world that you'll easily succeed in. You're actually opening up a main artery to the entire SWA domestic market for some growing airlines South of the border. You think they're going to be happy sharing ONE gate? You think they're going to build their own terminal outside their own Country? I don't know for sure what you're up to, but I know it's coming. I would guess there is some legal maneuver, and SWA will want some federal help making sure the competition has to go to IAH for a certain period of time [years]. Or there will be some attempt at amending international airline agreements between Countries? Or maybe the chips will fall how they should and you get your ass kicked. I'd love to be a part of that. I'd fly a 757 for $100/hr as a captain if my airline would line up next to yours. I'd probably pay for my training too. Why not? Worked pretty good for you guys.

you are completely fabricating the HOU terminal issue. WE BUILT IT. SWA agreed to let one gate go to whomever wanted it. if another carrier wants more gates,
LET THEM BUILD IT.


What part of WE built it don't you get?

Your argument is completely baseless.

 

[SIG600]

We both agree with DP, therefore we agree. Not new we have done that before. We both agree the 1500 hour is stupid, it gives no credit for experience. BTW The Army felt the same way about aptitude during WWII, that is why they eliminated the college degree thing.

This is the same Army Air Corps that didn't think black men were smart enough, or had the aptitude to fly.

If the 1500 hour rule is stupid, then so is the 1200 hour rule for 135 ops. Or the 250 hour rule for a commercial licence. Or 40 hours for a PPL.

For those that want to make the military arguement with flight time, as has already been mentioned there is an intense weeding out and selection process. That doesn't mean the risk mitigation stops when they got their wings. I've had plenty of 300-400 hour total time nuggets on my wing going over the beach into Afghanistan or Iraq, but there were serious mission planning factors and risk mitigation from leadership with regards to those guys. When I was a new guy, the nuggets didn't go over the beach for the first three weeks while the senior guys got back in the saddle. As they gain experience we throttle that back. I've seen the same thing in the heavy world. New guy shows up, rides 3P for a few hundred hours only during cruise. Then they start working him into the right seat. By the time he's 2P qualified the guy has a few hundred if not a thousand or more hours by that point. Which are highly supervised/mentored.

So does that mean you are not coming to my birthday party, we are going to play pin the airplane on the aircraft carrier, should be right up your alley. BTW I do own an airplane, I teach people to fly for almost nothing, because it is fun to see these people's skills grow. Is that lowering the bar? BTW2 Why do hide behind a screen name, you probably have a lot to tell us of your Navy days?.

Cute game, I've had enough life altering moments doing it for real though. Congrats on donating your time to further the health of general aviation, so long as it's not at the expense of an aspiring CFI who legitimately needs to make money, otherwise you're just lowering the bar... still. I instruct on the side too. I don't need the money or the flight time, I enjoy it. But I won't charge less than the going rate otherwise I'm screwing other guys in the local area (also because my time is not worth $0 to me), and I'll only take students that either can't get to a full time CFI, or they're too loaded with students.

 

[Scoot 11]

Well, Scoot- w/ 6 airlines under my belt including an Alpa legacy, and a RJ op that contracted with delta and many others, throw all the sticks and stones you want scooter- I do have a point of reference - which is why I stick my nose in delta threads when DALPA takes their immense influence and does something as stupid as allowing more -900's- it comes from experience and actually flying the mainline routes I once flew in the right seat of a mainline jet in the right seat of a large RJ, while having on average thousands more PIC time than my younger captains - I'm sorry you want me to forget that scoot- but it's your myopic one airline world view that made it all happen.

Now, if you haven't figured it out- this thread isn't about SWA v delta - it's got a wider "scope" than that- so maybe you can participate in the actual subject??

No wavey. You're a chicken $hit hiding behind a keyboard, you're also a PFT troll who couldn't get hired anywhere else so he had to buy his job. How hypocritical, taking one of those outsourced jobs, you ********************ing sellout. If you really had any balls, you'd have told them to stuff that rj job, but you didn't. Why, because you're a sellout. Because of sellouts like you and swapa, we have "LCC's" who paid lower and had lousy benefits and no retirement. Enjoy your stagnation, and pray to whoever you call God you don't get furloughed again, cause its looking pretty bleak over at PFT land! Looks like your next job will be handing out favors at truck stops, instead of airports. Sellout!

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well the problem is Bubba, the two previous Houston mayors were perfectly happy to extract enormous sums from Continental to build a huge airport under the pretext that Denver was legitimate and that IAH would be the marketplace.

Why? Did you bribe them? Apparently not enough to ensure that you got your say in SWA matters.

We built a lot of gates at IAH for all sorts of airlines to come in and compete. SWA is building five total, and 4 are SWA only?! Yeah, that's competition, in your world.

That's BS. Continental built nothing for "other airlines' benefit." Municipal bonds built the majority of IAH, with Continental paying mainly for it's airline-specific stuff. Southwest is actually paying to build the building itself at HOU, with one extra gate for whomever. If there's more demand (right now, there's absolutely none), then the airport will expand further. That's how it works. That's how ALL airports work, including HOU and IAH.

I think it's not only important to take a 30,000 foot view, but also a long term view. Here is a prediction I have, and it's based on what SWA behavior was at Love: You're not done yet crafting your operation at Hobby; This is a multi year project. There will be competitors moving into Hobby, and it's not going to go well for you. You guys think you're going offshore into a world that you'll easily succeed in. You're actually opening up a main artery to the entire SWA domestic market for some growing airlines South of the border. You think they're going to be happy sharing ONE gate? You think they're going to build their own terminal outside their own Country?

I don't know how many, if any, foreign carriers will want to fly into HOU. Nor do you. But MY prediction is that most of them will want to go to IAH because they have code shares with you; we don't code share with anyone. Again, if more demand appears for HOU, then the airport will grow further. Do you really not know how this stuff works?

I don't know for sure what you're up to, but I know it's coming. I would guess there is some legal maneuver, and SWA will want some federal help making sure the competition has to go to IAH for a certain period of time [years].

Uh, Southwest has NEVER asked the Feds (or anyone else) to interfere with another airline's operations. That's YOUR airline that you're thinking of that does that, so I can see how you might make that mistake.

Or there will be some attempt at amending international airline agreements between Countries? Or maybe the chips will fall how they should and you get your ass kicked. I'd love to be a part of that. I'd fly a 757 for $100/hr as a captain if my airline would line up next to yours. I'd probably pay for my training too. Why not? Worked pretty good for you guys.

Southwest always let the chips fall where they may. We do our thing, and the competition is welcome to do their thing, or even to imitate us. And, of course, your airline is welcome to "line up next to ours" at Hobby. Use the free gate, or build your own. Whatever you want.

The fact is, that you guys want to fly out of IAH; you'd lose money at HOU without your domestic feed (just like we would at IAH without our domestic feed--but of course, that's your self-serving idea of "fair" competition). And clearly, HOU is not big enough for the massive Houston hub that you need. But on the other hand, I'm sure that your bosses would be grateful to hear you volunteering to fly 757s for $100/hr! What a guy!

Bubba

 

[slaquer5]

Good god. I have not come on in while . This thread has turned pretty nasty .


After reading scoots and flops posts, I am glad I have a remote starter for my truck, and and a conceal carry permit .

 

[SWA Bubba]

Good god. I have not come on in while . This thread has turned pretty nasty .


After reading scoots and flops posts, I am glad I have a remote starter for my truck, and and a conceal carry permit .

Yeah, this thread has taken some weird turns alright. But kudos to Dicko for finding an apropos way to bring the phrase "Sesame Street rim job" into the conversation. imp:

Bubba

 

[Flopgut]

you are completely fabricating the HOU terminal issue. WE BUILT IT. SWA agreed to let one gate go to whomever wanted it. if another carrier wants more gates,
LET THEM BUILD IT.


What part of WE built it don't you get?

Your argument is completely baseless.

Well, if you had to proceed like a traditional legacy (which you don't), you could expect as much access to their airport(s) as you give to them. So if you were a legacy you'd be done before you start, because ONE gate wouldn't cut it. But you're SWA, so I'm guessing Gary is greasing the wheels right now. You better hope he get's it done.

 

[Flopgut]

Get a grip man.

This thing seems to have driven you over the edge. I'm a little worried about what you'll offer to do next - Women's clothing ? Prostituting yourself on the streets of Houston, then giving the proceeds to Smisek ?

Yeah, uh, none of that. But I wouldn't mind if ALPA decided to assess us all [whatever amount] to sue the crap out of Gary and SWAPA on behalf of AirTran pilots. Best money I could spend...

 

[redflyer65]

Flop buddy, you've lost it.

You are angry that Southwest is paying for a terminal they want to use instead of using local bonds, etc?

Your company didn't even bother to really show up to the city council meetings. It was an embarrassment for you and the rest of the employees. It's over and done.

You want to fly internationally out of Hobby? Come on down and use the one open gate that SW provides, or build your own terminal. There's nothing stopping you. Have at it.

You'd like to sue Gary and SWAPA basically just because of your hatred of everything Southwest, it has nothing to do with Airtran.

As Dicko said, GET A GRIP man.