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[Majik]

I just pulled it out of my butt, as you so eloquently put it. Years of studying economics and decades of observing union and non union shops, and the differences in how disputes are handled have convinced me that unions are the wrong answer to the right question, which is "how do we accomplish a better workplace?" The right answer being management's desire to avoid attrition and keep a motivated, productive workforce which will allow the company to change as the market changes. Unions just coerce and obstruct, and tend to feed into the most negative feelings of the biggest complainers, which tend to be the least productive employees anyway. Unions reward sloth and mediocrity, which means long term malaise and death to a company. See Delta and Pan Am and Eastern and...
Maybe if I become informed, instead of vaporing kneejerk opinions, I will become a union guy! If I do, you will be the first to know.

I used to have the same view as yours until I came to work for NJA (my first union job). It only took me about a year to realize (from direct observation) that I was previously wrong in my assumptions.
In a past non-union job I've seen how disputes between a rogue manager and a good employee were handled. The rogue manager won and the good pilot was shown the door. I've seen a manager's friends get bereavement leave granted in excess of the minumum and I've seen those that were not in management's pockets have to jump through hoops and fight to get the minimum. In my non-union experience I've learned that those that suck up to management tend to skate through the rules and those that question management's decisions tend to get treated harshly.

Here's an example of a 15 pilot, non-union flight department I was with. John was 4th in seniority and was one of the best pilots in the group. John joined a Navy Reserve unit flying a G4. After the military drawdown John's unit needed him to fly more. The company told John that he needed to reduce his reserve time or they would terminate him. John showed them the congressional paperwork that prevented employers from terminating employees because of military reserve committments. A few weeks later John was told that the company had decided to reduce the number of pilots from 15 to 14 and, that to be fair, they had randomly drawn a name from a hat to see which pilot should be terminated. You guessed it - John just happened to be the unlucky pilot. He hired a lawyer and lost. He quickly landed a better job but it sucked for us to watch a good pilot get shafted.

 

[G4dude]

Good arguments, both from Old F and Majik. I have worked for many bad employers, and it was rough. I did not put up with it, changed jobs, and ended up at a great place. I did not try to change a bad employer's behavior, I just found a better employer.
To reiterate, it is very nice seeing a much happier bunch at NJA. We just differ on how it could have been achieved. I could still be convinced you are correct, so keep trying.

 

[old*art]

G IV I am truly happy for you that your work experience has never had a need for a union. We all just do the best we can and do not always have the luxury of being able to pick up and leave a job - or are willing to fight to try to make it better for the ones who come behind. There are definite pros and cons to every scenario, but bad management is usually the root cause - Delta being the classic example.

 

[RustyFan]

Well I must admit there seems to be some common ground here. Perhaps there is a solution. As for the EJM issue, I do see the point.

My very vague bullet points are based on the NJI pilots, (not NJA) putting an end to this issue by unionizing before the possible NMB issue. While it wouldn't be pleasant for quite some time at NJI, our pilots hold cards at the moment. And for that reason and that reason only, we would put forth a proposal for a fair and equitable integration. In the end it will ultimately depend on what our younger pilots want to do. None of this will affect me regardless.

That being said, if we're going to end the war, we want the spoils equally divided.

 

[gunfyter]

If I were an employer or management... I would like to be able to sh!tcan anyone I wanted and promote anyone I wanted without messing with union work rules....


I'd like to have an A-team.

 

[G4dude]

NJA pilots want to be union, great. NJI pilots want to be non union, so leave us alone. Why do you want to force us to go union when we don't want to force you to give up your union?

 

[Hogprint]

RustyFan posted:

My very vague bullet points are based on the NJI pilots, (not NJA) putting an end to this issue by unionizing before the possible NMB issue.

Rusty,
I've been thinking that NJI would take this step before the three yr. (now less) deadline. I even think that RTS would maybe even sell them outright to keep 1108 off property.

In your opinion would who would NJI unionize under? Would they try and secure the equality you spoke of with 1108 or go some place else?

 

[Hogprint]

G4Dude posted:

NJI pilots want to be non union, so leave us alone.

G4, not trying to start a piss'n contest here, but I have spoke with a few NJI folks (mostly FO's) who told me between them, myself and the fence post, that a union may not be a bad thing. I will say they all said things are great as is and that would be OK too, but....

Could it be that some at NJI don't have their finger on the pulse of the group at large?

 

[G4dude]

RustyFan posted:



Rusty,
I've been thinking that NJI would take this step before the three yr. (now less) deadline. I even think that RTS would maybe even sell them outright to keep 1108 off property.

In your opinion would who would NJI unionize under? Would they try and secure the equality you spoke of with 1108 or go some place else?

What a very interesting idea! Preemptive unionization! If we did that, would NJAs union still try to integrate? I am quite fuzzy on labor law, although opinion seems to be at NJI that 1108 does not have a case.

 

[G4dude]

G4Dude posted:



G4, not trying to start a piss'n contest here, but I have spoke with a few NJI folks (mostly FO's) who told me between them, myself and the fence post, that a union may not be a bad thing. I will say they all said things are great as is and that would be OK too, but....

Could it be that some at NJI don't have their finger on the pulse of the group at large?

I will admit I am surprised at what you say, so it is possible there is more pro union sentiment here than I thought. I haven't heard any of it, and we talk about the subject frequently. Hmmm. I would be pleased to have a vote, but hate the thought of us being forced to join a union because of some court case. See the difference?

 

[G4dude]

G IV I am truly happy for you that your work experience has never had a need for a union. We all just do the best we can and do not always have the luxury of being able to pick up and leave a job - or are willing to fight to try to make it better for the ones who come behind. There are definite pros and cons to every scenario, but bad management is usually the root cause - Delta being the classic example.

By the what did Delta do that was so bad, management-wise? I am not an expert, and have just noticed the extraordinarily high pay the pilots have been getting since approximately 2000. I have been blaming Delta's losses on that, but maybe there is more to it.

 

[Hogprint]

I don't pretend to be a labor law expert either, just have always thought that RTS would do "whatever" to keep his promises to y'all in SAV. I would think he wouldn't want this to go to court just on the off chance it could go against NJI. A democrat may be sitting in the White House then also and that may change things.

 

[Hogprint]

I will admit I am surprised at what you say, so it is possible there is more pro union sentiment here than I thought. I haven't heard any of it, and we talk about the subject frequently. Hmmm. I would be pleased to have a vote, but hate the thought of us being forced to join a union because of some court case. See the difference?

I do see your point on this. Like I said, it was just a few guys and it may not be indicative of the whole, but it was an eye opener for me. Maybe them being FO's had something to do with it.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Well I must admit there seems to be some common ground here. Perhaps there is a solution.

Im sitting in Boston right now and the sky just turned black! I think the world just stopped turning

 

[RTRHD]

A democrat may be sitting in the White House then also and that may change things.

You just got your dream job, Democrat or Sensible person. Iran is getting a nuclear devise, we are still in Iraq, and Social Security is going bankrupt. 1108 is taking on one of the richest men in the world. “O” let me stop what I am doing. Yea Right.