NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[172driver]

99% of the time the SIC's don't care either. Who wants to rebuild their nest 4 times a day? It usually happens when someone has sim recurrent coming up and haven't flown from the left seat for 6 months. They understandably want to rehearse their flows with someone who does it all the time. In my plane they are welcome to it. There's less to do in the right seat!

Which begs the question, why do SIC's have to train from the left seat if that's not where they fly the airplane from?

 

[fischman]

Which begs the question, why do SIC's have to train from the left seat if that's not where they fly the airplane from?

Per the contracts with NetJets and the owners (pax), ALL NetJets crew members are fully trained as a Captain. The FOM and etiquette demand the PIC fly from the left seat on owner trips, however on ferry legs it is at the discretion of the PIC who sits in the left seat.

 

[dingo222]

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

you have the best job in aviation. DO you want to piss an moan over who is PIC, who is in the left seat, who is right etc????????? Are you kidding me? We (regionals) have the highest amount of pilots on furlough since 9/11, and yet we( all of us) piss and moan??????????

Take it; be a man and take it. Be the best customer service SOB ever. Smile and nod and do the best the company will allow. I work for a company that will rather tape up an overhead panel rather than fix them. I could punk out, but I don't. I preserve the presence of a captain and write it up and deal with the aftermath rather that give in. But I also understand that my passengers have places to go and I will go to all lengths to get them there undetered. IF you have flown with me, you know what I mean. THe callout is "barber poll unless otherwise noted."

Do the right thing for the passenger at all times. They pay for OUR privledge of flying great aircraft.

Dingo222

 

[dingo222]

deleted

 

[Diesel]

I had the flip side of this a couple months ago. A real condescending, know it all, captain with half my experience and half my type ratings tried to make me fly left seat on empty legs. She said, "you need to stay current for the sim." I graciously said, "no thanks." She went off on a ten minute blah blah blah fest claiming it was a safety issue, and that I was stupid to not fly left seat.

You should have asked her about smashing into a fuel truck.

 

[dingo222]

You should have asked her about smashing into a fuel truck.

wow, somebody give her the bus schedule to see" the greatest broadway play" ever so she gets run over.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Which begs the question, why do SIC's have to train from the left seat if that's not where they fly the airplane from?

The real answer has to do with our training syllabus and our POI. It has nothing to do with our owners and what they were told. It has to with legality.

Since all of our pilots are type rated in the aircraft they fly, they have to show proficiency in taxiing the aircraft. In most cases, this involves sitting in the left seat and working the tiller. Back February 8, 2008, NJA management decided to do away with "seat-swapping" in the G200. All SICs now had to fly from the right seat. The question of training came up and has been looked into since that time. Currently, our training syllabus is such that it doesn't allow time for any "additional" training. Meaning that there's really no problem for an SIC to train and check from the right seat other than figuring out when and how the SIC would be checked on taxiing procedures.

I know this sounds absolutely ridiculous but this is how it is. Our fine FSI instructors work as robots so to speak when it comes to training NJA pilots. They basically go right down the list and check off boxes as we go along. Right now, there's nothing they can do. They're planning on changing all of this but a training syllabus re-write takes time since it needs to be signed off by our POI.

THAT'S the real reason as to why they have to train from the left seat.

 

[o2bflyn]

Exactly. Plus, I can reach the coffee pot from the right seat in the Excel, which is the most important piece of equipment in it. :laugh:

And that is the most important thing. All of those "o Dark hundred" hour departure are easier from the right seat because of it.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Damn FARs

Which begs the question, why do SIC's have to train from the left seat if that's not where they fly the airplane from?

They (the SICs) can not take a type ride from the right seat. Most of the planes that are on property can only be started from the left seat. Remember the check ride is a 135 ride. It's an FAR thing.
FSI and NJA are looking into a way to legally have an SIC take a check ride via the right seat.
Time will tell for all.

 

[skiandsurf]

You should have asked her about smashing into a fuel truck.

The "her" that you're talking about is in the X, and I think capt dad flies another fleet. So must be another "her".

 

[transpac]

The "her" that you're talking about is in the X, and I think capt dad flies another fleet. So must be another "her".

Plus, the "her" in the fuel truck incident is not exactly a rookie as depicted by capt dad.

 

[172driver]

Per the contracts with NetJets and the owners (pax), ALL NetJets crew members are fully trained as a Captain. The FOM and etiquette demand the PIC fly from the left seat on owner trips, however on ferry legs it is at the discretion of the PIC who sits in the left seat.

What are you talking about Fisch? I fly owner trips from the right seat every day as do hundreds of other SIC's at Netjets. Neither the FOM nor etiquette suggest otherwise as far as I know. In fact, I'm pretty sure the company would like all SIC's to fly from the rt seat all the time. They just haven't worked out the details yet.

They (the SICs) can not take a type ride from the right seat. Most of the planes that are on property can only be started from the left seat. Remember the check ride is a 135 ride. It's an FAR thing.

You'll have to show me the FAR that says a type ride, 135 ride, or any ride must be taken from the left seat.

I think G200 Pilot is closest to correct. It is a training syllabus issue with taxiing and getting right hand circling approaches approved.

I don't really care which seat I fly from, but I don't like being trained and checked in one and flying the line from the other. Not a huge issue for me but it doesn't seem like the safest practice to train differently than you fly on a daily basis.

 

[fischman]

What are you talking about Fisch? I fly owner trips from the right seat every day as do hundreds of other SIC's at Netjets. Neither the FOM nor etiquette suggest otherwise as far as I know. In fact, I'm pretty sure the company would like all SIC's to fly from the rt seat all the time. They just haven't worked out the details yet.

Sorry I wasn't clear. SICs do not fly pax legs from the left seat. Right seat? No problem!

 

[G200_PILOT]

You'll have to show me the FAR that says a type ride, 135 ride, or any ride must be taken from the left seat.

I think G200 Pilot is closest to correct. It is a training syllabus issue with taxiing and getting right hand circling approaches approved.

The PTS for a 135 checkride calls for the pilot to safely taxi an airplane. Like I said, in most cases, this can only be done from the left seat (tiller.) Currently, our training guidelines are set up in a way that assumes every pilot is a PIC. This has now come back to bite them in the arse. We all know it takes an act of congress to change anything here so I would plan on seeing a change sometime in 2009.

The reason why I sound so involved is because I have been a very big opponent of the new rules. I feel that it was a slap in the face to the G200 SICs that have been flying airplanes from the left seat for 30 years. 2007 was a bad year for the 200 and things had to change. Holding the SICs in the right seat wasn't the answer to their problems. It was a knee-jerk reaction to show the FAA and upper management that change was taking place. I have been through 2 recurrents so far since the new rules went into effect and both times, I was paired up with an SIC. Both times, my hands had NO idea what they were doing from the right seat and his had no idea what they were doing from the left seat. I could care less about my inadequacies in the right seat but I really don't think it's fair to tell a guy that he's going to be stuck in the right seat every leg but then is expected to take a checkride from the left seat.


Hey, isn't this thread supposed to be about some whiney-ass ___________ complaining about NJA captains???? :bomb:

 

[LJDRVR]

Captain sits in left seat - flies a leg. SIC sits in right seat - flies the next leg. Continue to alternate for rest of trip. Exchange fond farewells and enjoy your days off.

If you collect the Captain paycheck and sign for the jet - you sit on the left side. If you collect an SIC paycheck - you sit on the right, regardless of how many hours or type ratings you have.

There is no valid argument for not letting an FO fly every other leg, unless your procedural and regulatory guidance calls for it. (Special airport, monitored approach, etc.) When it occurs, a good Captain will make sure that the FO does not get "cheated" out of their flying. (Giving them another leg to make up for the one they lost.)

Your SIC met the requirements of a type rating, yet some of us want to believe they have to somehow jump through the flaming rings of our more exacting "personal" standards before we allow them to touch the controls with pax in back?

Give me a break.

If you aren't sharing, you have issues. With your own airmanship and confidence and/or with your practical application of CRM. I'm not casting stones here - I used to do this crap myself when I didn't know any better and that's what it is: crap.

Why is it so many Drama Queens want to make this profession so much more complicated than it needs to be?

 

[transpac]

I can't think of any reason a SIC couldn't do 99% of the type rating and Pt 135 training and checkride maneuvers from the right seat. If taxiing can't be done from the right seat, it could be done from the left.

 

[theskyking]

As someone who does sit in the right seat at NJA, I couldn't care less which seat I sit in during a check ride. I can't believe it's all that big of a deal. Are you telling me you can't accomplish the same maneuvers from either seat? Not sure of the other fleets, but you have to be in the left seat to be able to deal with any start malfunctions. So, sit in the left seat and do your check ride. If you aren't competent enough to get it done, then go do something else.

 

[G200_PILOT]

I can't think of any reason a SIC couldn't do 99% of the type rating and Pt 135 training and checkride maneuvers from the right seat. If taxiing can't be done from the right seat, it could be done from the left.

Believe it or not, it's not that simple here at NJA. Again, like I said before, our training guidelines are VERY strict. To the point that our instructors CAN'T do anything "outside the box." The way NJA has it set up, we each have 120 minutes to accomplish 180 minutes worth of procedures. We have NO time for anything extra. The FSI instructors are given a book that contains our lesson plans. They have no choice but to follow it to a tee. Those that have strayed from it have been disciplined/terminated. It's not something the company nor FSI takes lightly. That being the case... in order for it to be done the right way (SICs trained and checked from the right seat) the entire lesson plan has to be re-written AND APPROVED. That's where they're at right now.

I'm done. I've told you everything I know about it. If you still have doubts or questions, call the pilot hotline, press "0" and ask to speak with the DO.

 

[G200_PILOT]

As someone who does sit in the right seat at NJA, I couldn't care less which seat I sit in during a check ride. I can't believe it's all that big of a deal. Are you telling me you can't accomplish the same maneuvers from either seat? Not sure of the other fleets, but you have to be in the left seat to be able to deal with any start malfunctions. So, sit in the left seat and do your check ride. If you aren't competent enough to get it done, then go do something else.

I think you'd be surprised how many SIC look at it a bit differently than you.

 

[transpac]

Believe it or not, it's not that simple here at NJA.

Fair enough. I was speaking strictly of the FAR requirements. In all cases the training program contains the approved specifics, which may go beyond the FAR requirements.

 

[172driver]

As someone who does sit in the right seat at NJA, I couldn't care less which seat I sit in during a check ride. I can't believe it's all that big of a deal. Are you telling me you can't accomplish the same maneuvers from either seat? Not sure of the other fleets, but you have to be in the left seat to be able to deal with any start malfunctions. So, sit in the left seat and do your check ride. If you aren't competent enough to get it done, then go do something else.

As I said, it's not a huge deal, it's not unsafe, but it's not as safe or effective as it could be. I can and do accomplish the same maneuvers in the left seat, but it takes me an hour or so before I get used to the reversal of all the buttons on the yoke, and there are a lot of them in the Beechjet. Also, start malfunctions and taxi can be fully dealt with from the right seat of the 400. It's not about being competent, it's about training how you fly and flying how you train.

 

[glasspilot]

Why does an FO need to taxi on a checkride? They already have the type so the company can still advertise fully typed crews.

Do they also need to be fully current from the left seat? Are there times the company needs two FOs to repo a plane so one needs to be current from the left seat?

 

[G200_PILOT]

Why does an FO need to taxi on a checkride? They already have the type so the company can still advertise fully typed crews.

Do they also need to be fully current from the left seat? Are there times the company needs two FOs to repo a plane so one needs to be current from the left seat?

Ummmmm.... NO!

 

[glasspilot]

That's what I thought, so then...

Why do FO's need to be current from the left seat?

 

[G200_PILOT]

I give up.........

 

[FLYLOW22]

There is no valid argument for not letting an FO fly every other leg, unless your procedural and regulatory guidance calls for it. (Special airport, monitored approach, etc.) When it occurs, a good Captain will make sure that the FO does not get "cheated" out of their flying. (Giving them another leg to make up for the one they lost.)

You might not be a NetJets pilot if you share the above opinion.

Generally, I will absolutely alternate legs. Occasionally, I will take the next leg depending on the circumstances.

ie...

*Coral Reef Club,

*Aspen on a busy and poor weather day,

*Landing at a back-woods short runway airport on a slick and rainy day with gusty winds.

We don't routinely operate to or from anywhere. We do fly to some airports in higher concentrations, but not with regularity (TEB, PBI, MDW, etc.). There is no opportunity for NJ crews to develop "familiarity" at several airports like a 121 pilot can.

Type rating or not, it's safer for a pilot to see someone else operating in challenging airport environments 1st before taking the controls and operating in them personally (IMHO). This isn't a MAN contest. This is a customer service job.

NJ does not sell "minimum certifications" (FAA APPROVED) to our Owners. NetJets sells higher standards to our Owners in the interests of safety and comfort. It's those couple of notches above "legal" that our Owners pay for and receive. It's called "polish" and we love to give it.

And this isn't a "beat up on the SIC" practice. NetJets doesn't release Captains directly to the line following UPG training for just this reason. New PICs fly as a PSIC for a period of months until they develop a solid operational experience base former from experience, not simulation.

Again, this is a company cultural phenomenon based on saefty and comfort... "polish". It's not a "man contest".

 

[o2bflyn]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

 

[say again]

Right now, just put me in a seat, Could care less whether or not I get to manipulate the controls. Unemployment sucks, and so does finding a job.

 

[FrontierFan]

You might not be a NetJets pilot if you share the above opinion.

Generally, I will absolutely alternate legs. Occasionally, I will take the next leg depending on the circumstances.

ie...

*Coral Reef Club,

*Aspen on a busy and poor weather day,

*Landing at a back-woods short runway airport on a slick and rainy day with gusty winds.

We don't routinely operate to or from anywhere. We do fly to some airports in higher concentrations, but not with regularity (TEB, PBI, MDW, etc.). There is no opportunity for NJ crews to develop "familiarity" at several airports like a 121 pilot can.

Type rating or not, it's safer for a pilot to see someone else operating in challenging airport environments 1st before taking the controls and operating in them personally (IMHO). This isn't a MAN contest. This is a customer service job.

NJ does not sell "minimum certifications" (FAA APPROVED) to our Owners. NetJets sells higher standards to our Owners in the interests of safety and comfort. It's those couple of notches above "legal" that our Owners pay for and receive. It's called "polish" and we love to give it.

And this isn't a "beat up on the SIC" practice. NetJets doesn't release Captains directly to the line following UPG training for just this reason. New PICs fly as a PSIC for a period of months until they develop a solid operational experience base former from experience, not simulation.

Again, this is a company cultural phenomenon based on saefty and comfort... "polish". It's not a "man contest".

Could not have said it better myself.

 

[glasspilot]

I give up.........

I thought I made a very valid point. All you can come up with is "I give up"?

Let's try again. Why do FO's ever need to sit in the left seat?

If the company wants to type everyone then fine. Type 'em. But why do they have to stay current forcing extra evaluation and proficiency from the left seat during recurrent? Just type them so NetJets can advertise fully typed crews and then let them stay in the right seat until upgrade. The only practical reason I can think of was two FOs repositioning an aircraft and you scoffed at that idea. Why I'm not sure as they are freaking TYPED in the damn plane! Why would you care if two FOs who are TYPED flew together?!?!?

So how about you put away your ego and attitude and come up with an answer?