NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[hammer2]

Damm!t!!!! You know the NJA captains won't let me fly the live legs either. Oh wait ??? I work for Flex, Nevermind..

 

[Schrode]

Damm!t!!!! You know the NJA captains won't let me fly the live legs either. Oh wait ??? I work for Flex, Nevermind..

Maybe I missed something, but, I don't see anything in the FOM that says you can't fly live legs for us.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

Anyway, I'm done. Let the flaming begin.

Porter you are a TRUE, FLIPPIN' IDIOT !

 

[jegermeister]

13 pages of reponses and nearly 8,000 views. Porter, if nothing else you've hit a nerve.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I am a NetJets FO that has been at the company about 7 months. I have been on the line for almost 5 months. I have 200 hours in my aircraft type. I have 5000 hours total time. I have flown 10 different turbine aircraft, upgraded to Captain 3 times over at 3 different 135 operations (once in a different jet). I am a Gold Seal flight instructor (CFII, MEI) who is an expert on teaching and performing such "advanced" flying techniques as the "dreaded" crosswind landing. I have flown all over the country around some of the worst weather imaginable and had to make tough decisions. In other words, this is not my first rodeo.

NetJets hired me because they had confidence in my experience and my abilities. I passed training and IOE with flying colors. I'm pretty sure I've impressed (as have many others hired at NetJets and other companies) my Captains that I've flown with every time. I am "young" in the scheme of things with a lot of career ahead of me, which I suspect is causing some unfair prejudging from some of you "advanced" in years folks.

This subject has been touched on before on these threads but I want to highlight again here because I am honestly amazed at the consistency among my Captains. What I am getting at is that since flying with this company I have yet to fly a SINGLE passenger leg. RIDICULOUS !!!

I haven't confronted anyone about it yet because It hasn't been necessary. Before about a month ago there were enough ferry legs that I just didn't care. Lately however there are more and more back to back passenger legs. I had 3 back to back pax legs today alone. Every time we get to the before takeoff brief, the Captain (who hasn't "seen" me fly yet to "see" if he thinks I am good enough) once again utters the familiar words, "Left seat takeoff.....", meaning once again it ain't my turn.

This is absurd. The egos at this place are amazing!!! Are you serious? Airline pilots fly pax legs and landings on IOE for craps sake! What is the deal. Yes I have the balls. Yes I am going to say something. The bottom line is I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!!!!! It is an insult that you guys think your colleagues don't have "the right stuff". We've already passed the 4 phases of the interview, the training, and the IOE Captain's recommendation. Having said that we've already "payed our dues" and "been there and done that" when we get to NetJets. Get off your high horses!!!!

The ONLY time a First Officer shouldn't be flying EVERY OTHER LEG is if it is discussed before hand and the particular FO expresses that he is not comfortable because of how he feels about his OWN experience, OR the Captain decides to use his PIC authority and SPECIFICALLY briefs to his FO the reason why he is taking the leg. The Captain should have to make a case for it in other words if he is going to exercise his authority in this way. Even so, in my opinion, we are all the best judge of our own abilities. Most of us are not going to try to be heroes and will communicate that to our Captain's at that time. Give us the benefit of the doubt!

Many times over I hear the familiar question, "How long have you been here." I tell them and very often hear something condescending like, "Ohh, a newby." As If I just soloed the day before. Once on a ferry leg during a very gusty maximum component crosswind landing I had a Captain ask me this question on short final. After answering he put his hand up to the yoke and feet near the rudder pedals. It was insulting. I don't care who you are it was. He started to sweat as I greased it on and executed my SOP's perfectly.

You guys are going to have (and have had this year) a lot of new pilots coming into this company. Show some respect for where we came from and what it took to get here!!! Most of us hired this year were the top 20-30% of our classes. The cream of the crop!

We are on probation and therefore obviously fear retribution or getting on the "wrong" list. We shouldn't have to feel that way. Somebody needs to address this.

I am not alone in feeling this way specifically about the Captain's at NJ. There have been other threads.

Anyway, I'm done. Let the flaming begin.

On the surface, its sounds like you are full of yourself. However, I've thought about it for a bit and I think I see the real issue. Granted, I'm just going by your original post, so take it for what its worth.

It sounds to me like you consider the captain's decision to fly as a judgement on your abilities. It is not. Your abilities where judged when you interviewed, trained and flew IOE. As a line pilot, your abilities are not in question.

The real judgement the captain is making is on his/her abilities. These captains that you have flown with are not allowing you to fly because they don't know how well they will handle the "unknowns" you present. These captains probably have some issues with the HR or training department as well.

In any case, unless they have seen you fly and then judged that you should not fly, it does not indicate a lack of confidence in your abilities.

edit

PS...don't allow yourself to hold these grudges and maintain this attitude internally. It will show. You may think that others don't see your resintment, but I assure you, it shows.

 

[DO-82 driver]

What I would like to know is..... how is IOE training different from actual line exerrpience?

Meaning.... Did the Captain who did your IOE training have you fly only from the right seat and did your IOE Capt. inform you of the "left seat only" policy (unwritten of course)?

Per the FOM you were not able to fly pax legs but were you told that you could fly pax legs once you reached your 75 hours?

Now if there is a true safety issue with flying from the right seat why hasn't the FAA, NJA or Desault addressed it?

Maybe because there isn't an issue that can't be solved by a proper writting of the SOP's or because some of the Falcon crews are stuck in the 70's.

It seems as if there is a major disconnect between IOE training and actual line experinece. Oh wait...we're talking about the Falcon here aren't we? I'd be curious as to when most of those Captains were hired..... might be an interresting point.

If this is the case then there is something wrong and needs to be addressed immediately....which, of course, we know won't happen.

 

[B727FA]

Here's what I really don't get: do our owners have a perceived safety issue? Do our crews have a perceived safety issue? Left seat/Right seat, ferry flight, live flight...

Hell, it's still doing w/b, it's still getting the ATIS, it's still getting a release, it's still getting taxi instructions, it's still following applicable FARs, it's still talking to ATC, and, amazingly enough, it's STILL FLYING for God's sake! What is going on here?

Both "sides" of this need to get over YOURSELVES. You're not as important as YOU think you are.

Bottom line: take one part of the watch away, it may still look pretty, and may still LOOK like a watch, but see if you can accurately tell time more than twice a day.

Move on...this back and forth bitching is bringing down our brand. We're above this...start proving it so.

 

[skiandsurf]

Ok, here is my new thoughts on this thread.

1. It seems like I am always making the inital contact with my PICs via the bb. Maybe these PICs need to be more assertive and initiate the dialoge.

2. I just flew a week with a great PIC. Every leg was a pax flight. I finally flew the last leg, with pax, from the right seat. During the flight, the pax would only talk to me, not the PIC. Not sure why they talked to me more than the PIC, other than I am a few years older. When the PIC was talking to them about the weather, he was talking pilot lingo......not real talk (ie......"the wx is 1/8 of a mile" instead of "the weather is so foggy that we can not land").

3. My landing from the right seat was so good, that I look forward to doing more flying from the right seat.

4. Talking with other SICs, seems like the biggest complaint is lack of "standardization" and CRM. One guy I talked to said he "just doesnt care any more". He said if you cant beat em, join em. So he does his job and nothing more.

 

[fischman]

One guy I talked to said he "just doesnt care any more". He said if you cant beat em, join em. So he does his job and nothing more.

That is concerning. We don't need that type of attitude at NetJets.

 

[Flybet3]

I am a NetJets FO that has been at the company about 7 months. I have been on the line for almost 5 months. I have 200 hours in my aircraft type. I have 5000 hours total time. I have flown 10 different turbine aircraft, upgraded to Captain 3 times over at 3 different 135 operations (once in a different jet). I am a Gold Seal flight instructor (CFII, MEI) who is an expert on teaching and performing such "advanced" flying techniques as the "dreaded" crosswind landing. I have flown all over the country around some of the worst weather imaginable and had to make tough decisions. In other words, this is not my first rodeo.

NetJets hired me because they had confidence in my experience and my abilities. I passed training and IOE with flying colors. I'm pretty sure I've impressed (as have many others hired at NetJets and other companies) my Captains that I've flown with every time. I am "young" in the scheme of things with a lot of career ahead of me, which I suspect is causing some unfair prejudging from some of you "advanced" in years folks.

This subject has been touched on before on these threads but I want to highlight again here because I am honestly amazed at the consistency among my Captains. What I am getting at is that since flying with this company I have yet to fly a SINGLE passenger leg. RIDICULOUS !!!

I haven't confronted anyone about it yet because It hasn't been necessary. Before about a month ago there were enough ferry legs that I just didn't care. Lately however there are more and more back to back passenger legs. I had 3 back to back pax legs today alone. Every time we get to the before takeoff brief, the Captain (who hasn't "seen" me fly yet to "see" if he thinks I am good enough) once again utters the familiar words, "Left seat takeoff.....", meaning once again it ain't my turn.

This is absurd. The egos at this place are amazing!!! Are you serious? Airline pilots fly pax legs and landings on IOE for craps sake! What is the deal. Yes I have the balls. Yes I am going to say something. The bottom line is I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!!!!! It is an insult that you guys think your colleagues don't have "the right stuff". We've already passed the 4 phases of the interview, the training, and the IOE Captain's recommendation. Having said that we've already "payed our dues" and "been there and done that" when we get to NetJets. Get off your high horses!!!!

The ONLY time a First Officer shouldn't be flying EVERY OTHER LEG is if it is discussed before hand and the particular FO expresses that he is not comfortable because of how he feels about his OWN experience, OR the Captain decides to use his PIC authority and SPECIFICALLY briefs to his FO the reason why he is taking the leg. The Captain should have to make a case for it in other words if he is going to exercise his authority in this way. Even so, in my opinion, we are all the best judge of our own abilities. Most of us are not going to try to be heroes and will communicate that to our Captain's at that time. Give us the benefit of the doubt!

Many times over I hear the familiar question, "How long have you been here." I tell them and very often hear something condescending like, "Ohh, a newby." As If I just soloed the day before. Once on a ferry leg during a very gusty maximum component crosswind landing I had a Captain ask me this question on short final. After answering he put his hand up to the yoke and feet near the rudder pedals. It was insulting. I don't care who you are it was. He started to sweat as I greased it on and executed my SOP's perfectly.

You guys are going to have (and have had this year) a lot of new pilots coming into this company. Show some respect for where we came from and what it took to get here!!! Most of us hired this year were the top 20-30% of our classes. The cream of the crop!

We are on probation and therefore obviously fear retribution or getting on the "wrong" list. We shouldn't have to feel that way. Somebody needs to address this.

I am not alone in feeling this way specifically about the Captain's at NJ. There have been other threads.

Anyway, I'm done. Let the flaming begin.

Well. I hate to brake it to ya, but you are an FO AGAIN and if the PIC's want to do the pax legs than that's how it goes.

 

[Flybet3]

I disagree. Ultimately the PIC has the final say so, and it should be that way,

You just answered your own comment there bud.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

Absolutely crazy. If you are an NJA employee posting this stuff here without going first to our union message board and airing out your problems, you are obviously too immature to fly ANY legs in the first place. That goes for the other FO's whining on here without at least going through more appropriate channels. I think our "talent acquisition" department has dropped the ball BIG TIME if you guys are actually employees. :bawling::smash:

 

[Buckeye]

WELL I HATE TO BURST YA'LLS BUBBLE BUT I DON'T THINK "PORTER" IS AN NJA PILOT. THE PERSON WHOM POSTED UNDER THIS INDIVIDUALS SCREEN NAME PROBABLY IS, BUT I DO BELEIVE MR. "PORTER" IS NOT.

 

[Semore Butts]

Well buckeye, that makes sense!

Being the person went about the whole "scenario" a$$ backwards in blatant ignorance.

(Not knowing anything about the union system in place (Pilot Pro-Standards)

It is no surprise that they would hide as deep as they could and make ignorant statements.

The person comes across as being young, 5000 hours and knows everything.

What about the other poster with 2500 hours crying about being hired and hadn't heard anything?

Boy that sucks! What could be worse then that?

Well I guess that individual knows now, since we have stopped hiring and Options is Furloughing, Dayjets closed etc..etc..

(I wonder how much "Combat" time they have? Maybe they don't know everything?)

What a long dissatisfying, miserable life they have ahead of them! On top at 30!!!!!

Sure hope I don't have to fly with them.

Can't believe I even posted on this thread again.

It must be the "meds"?

Good luck to those deserving pilots falling on hard times this holiday. Keep the faith, this will pass.

 

[fischman]

Not all of us 30 year olds with 5000 hours think the same way Semore!!! :beer:

 

[Willy21]

Maybe it means the pilots that have been around a while need to spend more time with the new guys and teach them. (A little code red would not hurt at times) Running from them only makes the problems and barriers worse. We should extend a hand to them.

 

[Semore Butts]

Hahahaha!

Fischman,

Your a St. Louis boy like me! You better know better!

You Don't play "Blues" for 5000 hours and suddenly say, "there, I got it"!

Well Willy, sounds like they don't want anything from us but recognition.

We are old, what do we know?

Old school, over the hill, obsolete, not cool!

Somehow I knew us old guys would end up being at fault?

 

[SDCFI]

Funny, I've had pretty much the opposite experience at Flex. With the exception of IOE I have always had Captains swap legs whether live or empty. Now, on the first leg together you can almost count on the Captain taking it if it's live and giving it to me if it's empty, a few ask which one I want. Also, I almost always fly from the right seat, only a few Captains offer the left on the empties and I don't care so I don't ask if they don't offer. At NJA can FO's taxi from the right seat in aircraft without a tiller? If the left seat pilot has to taxi at all times or if the aircraft has a tiller I can see not wanting to fly from the right side, otherwise I don't see why it would matter. In fact I like the challenge of being proficient from both sides. To the OP, the first rule of CRM is if you have an issue with another crewmember find a neutral place (hotel bar) and casually bring up the issue. For example: I couldn't help but notice you fly all the pax legs, if you're not comfortable with me flying pax is there a reason, maybe something I can work on? As long as you don't get a BS answer (that's the way it's always been done) leave it a that. More than likely they'll say "I'm sorry, that's the way it was done when I started and no one's ever said anything so I never thought about it. How bout we swap from now on? That'll be 2 cents please, no checks!

 

[Crossky]

I think our "talent acquisition" department has dropped the ball BIG TIME if you guys are actually employees. :bawling::smash:

You shouldn't post that stuff here without going first to your union message board and airing out your problems.












sorry, i'm bored on a sat. nite overnight.

 

[LJDRVR]

In a previous life I went through this whole empty-legs-till-I-knew-you're-smooth crap. That's all it is: Crap. Inexperienced Captains who take themselves a little too seriously using passenger comfort as a reason for their ego trip adn lack of comfort with the airplane. I've been there/done that and I didn't even know that's what it was at the time. I wish I could go back and change it.

Let your FO's fly. They'll learn faster and your cockpit will be a fun place to work.

Or you can be a dick.