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NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

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Sounds like your ego is equally amazing, here is a hint...get over yourself! It's just a job!
 
I am a NetJets FO that has been at the company about 7 months. I have been on the line for almost 5 months. I have 200 hours in my aircraft type. I have 5000 hours total time. I have flown 10 different turbine aircraft, upgraded to Captain 3 times over at 3 different 135 operations (once in a different jet). I am a Gold Seal flight instructor (CFII, MEI) who is an expert on teaching and performing such "advanced" flying techniques as the "dreaded" crosswind landing. I have flown all over the country around some of the worst weather imaginable and had to make tough decisions. In other words, this is not my first rodeo.

NetJets hired me because they had confidence in my experience and my abilities. I passed training and IOE with flying colors. I'm pretty sure I've impressed (as have many others hired at NetJets and other companies) my Captains that I've flown with every time. I am "young" in the scheme of things with a lot of career ahead of me, which I suspect is causing some unfair prejudging from some of you "advanced" in years folks.

This subject has been touched on before on these threads but I want to highlight again here because I am honestly amazed at the consistency among my Captains. What I am getting at is that since flying with this company I have yet to fly a SINGLE passenger leg. RIDICULOUS !!!

I haven't confronted anyone about it yet because It hasn't been necessary. Before about a month ago there were enough ferry legs that I just didn't care. Lately however there are more and more back to back passenger legs. I had 3 back to back pax legs today alone. Every time we get to the before takeoff brief, the Captain (who hasn't "seen" me fly yet to "see" if he thinks I am good enough) once again utters the familiar words, "Left seat takeoff.....", meaning once again it ain't my turn.

This is absurd. The egos at this place are amazing!!! Are you serious? Airline pilots fly pax legs and landings on IOE for craps sake! What is the deal. Yes I have the balls. Yes I am going to say something. The bottom line is I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!!!!! It is an insult that you guys think your colleagues don't have "the right stuff". We've already passed the 4 phases of the interview, the training, and the IOE Captain's recommendation. Having said that we've already "payed our dues" and "been there and done that" when we get to NetJets. Get off your high horses!!!!

The ONLY time a First Officer shouldn't be flying EVERY OTHER LEG is if it is discussed before hand and the particular FO expresses that he is not comfortable because of how he feels about his OWN experience, OR the Captain decides to use his PIC authority and SPECIFICALLY briefs to his FO the reason why he is taking the leg. The Captain should have to make a case for it in other words if he is going to exercise his authority in this way. Even so, in my opinion, we are all the best judge of our own abilities. Most of us are not going to try to be heroes and will communicate that to our Captain's at that time. Give us the benefit of the doubt!

Many times over I hear the familiar question, "How long have you been here." I tell them and very often hear something condescending like, "Ohh, a newby." As If I just soloed the day before. Once on a ferry leg during a very gusty maximum component crosswind landing I had a Captain ask me this question on short final. After answering he put his hand up to the yoke and feet near the rudder pedals. It was insulting. I don't care who you are it was. He started to sweat as I greased it on and executed my SOP's perfectly.

You guys are going to have (and have had this year) a lot of new pilots coming into this company. Show some respect for where we came from and what it took to get here!!! Most of us hired this year were the top 20-30% of our classes. The cream of the crop!

We are on probation and therefore obviously fear retribution or getting on the "wrong" list. We shouldn't have to feel that way. Somebody needs to address this.

I am not alone in feeling this way specifically about the Captain's at NJ. There have been other threads.

Anyway, I'm done. Let the flaming begin.
Boo-hoo-hoo
 
You'll get passenger legs when you get passenger legs. Geez, don't be such a narcissist. Pack your bags gents - we're going on an ego trip...with as long as you have been with it you know by now with all those qualifications - it only makes you legal man. Mellow out. You'll get yours...
 
What a bunch of ego maniacs.

Traditionally I just lurk for the news - but this one drove me out.

If a Captain is not comfortable with his own abilities to not "let" a fully trained and qualified FO fly whether or not passengers are on board there is a serious problem with either him or his training.

This type of ego trip attitude wouldn't last very long in the real world.

Some of you guys need to take yourselves a little less seriously.
 
This type of ego trip attitude wouldn't last very long in the real world.


We're not in the "Real World"? Sheesh, that explains a LOT!

The last 8 years of Bush was in the fake world, 911 attacks were in the fake world, our VP shooting his buddy in the face was in the fake world, my previous company going out of business was in the fake world.

How do we get to the "real world"? Do I need to find a wizard to give me some shoes? Follow a yellow road? TELL ME!!! This fake world is CRAP!!!!
 
This type of ego trip attitude wouldn't last very long in the real world.


Funny funny stuff!!!

We are the largest fractional out there. We now dwarf a number of major airlines. Many aspiring pilots out there now prefer to become a Netjets pilot instead of an airline pilot. Exactly which world do you figure we operate in?

The vast majority of our captains swap legs regardless if there's pax on board or not. The guy that started this thread appears to be the real ego maniac. Who the heck comes on here and posts all his qualifications? To prove what? Read my last post about 11 posts back or so and you'll see the problem isn't likely with our captains.
 
Sounds like your ego is equally amazing, here is a hint...get over yourself! It's just a job!


As a 15 year Captain at NJA I will W2 over 200K this year.

I have a mere 23 years till I retire.

Do the math Sparky, this is slighty more than "JUST A JOB".....This is an Aviation Career Dream.

P.S. I have earned the right to demand respect for "Captains Descretion" on the flight deck. A Gold Seal CFI who has been here 7 months has not.

Honestly, every time I read the original post, I picture this guy coming home on day seven and rushing home to his computer to hone his aviation skills on Microsoft Flight Simulator....
 
Honestly, every time I read the original post, I picture this guy coming home on day seven and rushing home to his computer to hone his aviation skills on Microsoft Flight Simulator....

Doubt it....his wife probably wont him fly that either. :)
 
I think that a few of you need to take your blood pressure medication! Not sure if there is anything to take for some of the “willy waving” that is going on (that’s d*ck waving in the UK to USA translation! :p ) but a few posters have some sensible & logical points – in favour of the FOs.

As I have said before, your option of the FO operating from the LHS on a ferry sector (captain’s discretion) is a super deal, I wish we could do the same over here.

However, I think there have been some valid points raised about standards & “variable” captain’s discretion – the FO has a rating, let them use it. For example, for me on a typical tour, I would establish if the FO was very recently out of line training (IOE?) or listed as “low time” on type. If either of these factors were valid, I would certainly look at the first day of tour & probably nominate the legs for the FO. This might typically be me operating the relevant pax leg(s) so I can observe the FO operating a ferry leg – or if it was a 3 sector day, e.g. ferry – revenue – ferry, then the FO would get both ferry sectors. Then I would try to plan the rest of the tour as alternating legs, varying this if there were FOM constraints (special airport, short runway, etc), where it would be mandatory for the captain to operate. I would also amend the order of operating if I could let the FO operate (my judgement of their ability) into an airport that they hadn’t been to before.

Now, for an experienced FO (not straight from IOE or low time), when meeting up at the FBO, I would ask them which sector(s) they wanted to operate - & then alternate between legs, carrying this on into subsequent days. Again, this would be subject to FOM constraints, but I wouldn’t worry about who flew pax or ferry legs. If it was a 3 sector day, & the FO didn’t have the good sense to say that they would do the first (& therefore the 3rd!), I would be very surprised! As also previously mentioned, if NJE, you are the “operating” pilot for the sector, then the other pilot will meet the pax. If you alternate, or vary the order to fit the circumstances, then both pilots share the cockpit set-up & meeting the pax. We obviously have different languages over in Europe (bit like a Texan versus someone from New Jersey? :laugh: ) so it makes very good sense for a German pilot to meet German-speaking pax, so that would be a sensible option to plan the sectors accordingly for the best customer experience.

So, whilst in NJE we don’t have the luxury of seat swapping between captain & FO, if you not are flying with an FO who doesn’t have the ink still drying on his type rating, then surely the captains are duty-bound to alternate pax/ferry sectors – heck, if it means sometimes giving the FOs more sectors than the captains so that they can utilise your LHS option, then so what??
 
Mike, that's actually pretty close to how we do it here (as far as flying pax legs, not about the language thing). The vast majority of our captains will simply alternate legs. We have a few who don't, but they really are few and far between.

Believe it or not, we even have a few F/O's who won't fly pax legs, simply because they don't want to do it from the right seat. That's their prerogative. Again, few and far between though.

Re-read Porter's posts. Really think about what he's saying, what he's complaining about, and how he's presenting himself. I think it'll become clear who is doing the most 'willy waving'.

The exaggerations are the best. Like I said, I'm an IOE instructor. There's no passing IOE with 'flying colors'. Every single person, when finished with IOE, will have an "S" under each task to be completed. That's it. No A++, or B- or gold star or anything like that. Maybe his IOE instructor wrote some nice things about his performance in the comments section. Big deal. We all do that when they do things right.

Look at his claim of being in the top 20 or 30%. Say what? How does he know that the people who got turned down in the class before him weren't better than him? Maybe he was just lucky in who he got interviewed with. There's no objective way to determine if he's in the top 30%, or the bottom 5% when it comes to new hires. In fact, there's no way to compare him to all the folks that came before him and were turned down. It depended on our needs at the time of hiring. You don't think his claims are just a bit ego-driven?

I can truly sympathize with him if he isn't doing any flying with pax. But 5 months of captains that haven't let him fly a single pax leg? I'm thinking that's either a bit of a stretch, or maybe he has some deficiencies in his flying he just won't admit to.

The tone of his posts points a maturity level of somewhere in the range of a 15-year-old. Gold seal instructor? Who cares? What relevance does that have? We're not asking him to teach anyone to fly. In fact, just the opposite. As a newhire, he might actually learn a lot (what to do and what NOT to do) if he'd let go of the ego and accept that our captains our experienced pilots, probably with credentials more impressive than his.

He says he wants a fix to this problem, but he's posting his complaints in the place where it's least likely to make any difference. He's been told how and where to handle it appropriately. Whether he's doing it remains to be seen.

Who is he to test our pilots, which is what he's doing by letting things go with his current captain to see if he'll be allowed to fly pax? He says his captain this tour is a nice guy, so what's the problem with talking it over with him?

Too many things point to our captains NOT being the problem.
 
Mr. Jenvey,

I reject your view point wholly as it the perspective an Englishmen. Your country is backward and therefore no reasonable opinion could be expected to come forth. Your horse races are even run in a clockwise direction, thus proving how backward English thinking is.

As further proof, here is the classic 1996 memorandum from your countries leading airline, British Airways:


There appears to be some confusion over the new pilot role titles. This notice will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings.

The titles P1, P2 and Co-Pilot will now cease to have any meaning, within the Operations Manual. They are to be replaced by Handling Pilot, Non-Handling Pilot, Non-Handling Landing Pilot, Handling Non-Landing Pilot and Non-Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is initially the Handling Pilot and will handle the take-off and landing except in role reversal when he is the Non-Handling Pilot for taxi until the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Landing Pilot at 80 knots.

The Non-Landing (Non-Handling, since the Landing Pilot is handling) Pilot reads the checklist to the Handling Pilot until after the Before Descent Checklist completion. Then the Handling Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non- Handling Non-Landing Pilot who then becomes the Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is the Non-Handling Pilot until the "Decision Altitude" call, when the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non-Handling Landing Pilot, unless the latter calls "Go Around", in which case the Handling Non-Landing Pilot continues handling and the Non-Handling Landing Pilot continues non-handling until the next call of "Land" or "Go Around", as appropriate.

In view of the recent confusion over these rules, it was deemed necessary to restate them clearly.




PS, I married a Brit.
 
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<<<< I reject your view point wholly as it the perspective an Englishmen. Your country is backward and therefore no reasonable opinion could be expected to come forth. Your horse races are even run in a clockwise direction, thus proving how backward English thinking is.>>>>

Oomph - unfair!! You'll hit me with the Boston Tea Party next...... :eek:

Still, at least we drive on the proper side of the road & have cars that don't use a super-tanker's load of fuel to get the parking lot at the Mall! :rolleyes: And before you retaliate, note that Mr Ford's first decent car had the steering wheel in the middle!!

RM - all noted, but I was also basing my viewpoint on some of the less subtle & informed replies! Maybe I got hooked by the trolls!! :D
 
As a newhire, he might actually learn a lot (what to do and what NOT to do) if he'd let go of the ego and accept that our captains our experienced pilots, probably with credentials more impressive than his.
The difference, though, is that the CA's wouldn't brag about it. I've been amazed at the humility of everyone here...Mr G, (VP Training/Standards) wrote a personal note to me to apologize for not being there to meet me on my first day of Indoc. I am in awe!
 
I bet porter dont even work here.....we all got had "had" by this thread.....lol
No sheet..being one of those guys thats been here less than a year, I find porter too be a total maroon. I have busted my rear to show my CA's that I am no porter type. Work hard, have a good attitude and show our pax the best customer service. Expect nothing and you wont be disappointed..if you do indeed work here!
 
You're afraid to discuss this on the union web site because you're on probation? You openly admit you have not discussed this with these stuck up captains, but bitch about internal issues on a public forum? Your decision making and judgement are clearly lacking. Grow up.

Exactly!

BTW I'm in my 3rd year at NJ and have alternated every leg since IOE.
 
This is old news

Varries fleet to fleet pilot to pilot. Small planes means more flying for FO's because less ego and seniority. In the old days Cappy flew the people because that's what ma wanted. Then there was some good weather exceptions added. Now it's up to cappy with little hand holding. Many old timers have a tough time with changing, have probably never read the FOM.

I think the none flying pilot is more important job. However, I alternate ever leg unless the FO wants to mix it up to sit in the left seat.

Who really cares who flies, we are all highly trained.

Pay me to sit in the hotel to reduce my stress!
 
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