NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[Mike Jenvey]

I think that a few of you need to take your blood pressure medication! Not sure if there is anything to take for some of the “willy waving” that is going on (that’s d*ck waving in the UK to USA translation! ) but a few posters have some sensible & logical points – in favour of the FOs.

As I have said before, your option of the FO operating from the LHS on a ferry sector (captain’s discretion) is a super deal, I wish we could do the same over here.

However, I think there have been some valid points raised about standards & “variable” captain’s discretion – the FO has a rating, let them use it. For example, for me on a typical tour, I would establish if the FO was very recently out of line training (IOE?) or listed as “low time” on type. If either of these factors were valid, I would certainly look at the first day of tour & probably nominate the legs for the FO. This might typically be me operating the relevant pax leg(s) so I can observe the FO operating a ferry leg – or if it was a 3 sector day, e.g. ferry – revenue – ferry, then the FO would get both ferry sectors. Then I would try to plan the rest of the tour as alternating legs, varying this if there were FOM constraints (special airport, short runway, etc), where it would be mandatory for the captain to operate. I would also amend the order of operating if I could let the FO operate (my judgement of their ability) into an airport that they hadn’t been to before.

Now, for an experienced FO (not straight from IOE or low time), when meeting up at the FBO, I would ask them which sector(s) they wanted to operate - & then alternate between legs, carrying this on into subsequent days. Again, this would be subject to FOM constraints, but I wouldn’t worry about who flew pax or ferry legs. If it was a 3 sector day, & the FO didn’t have the good sense to say that they would do the first (& therefore the 3rd!), I would be very surprised! As also previously mentioned, if NJE, you are the “operating” pilot for the sector, then the other pilot will meet the pax. If you alternate, or vary the order to fit the circumstances, then both pilots share the cockpit set-up & meeting the pax. We obviously have different languages over in Europe (bit like a Texan versus someone from New Jersey? :laugh: ) so it makes very good sense for a German pilot to meet German-speaking pax, so that would be a sensible option to plan the sectors accordingly for the best customer experience.

So, whilst in NJE we don’t have the luxury of seat swapping between captain & FO, if you not are flying with an FO who doesn’t have the ink still drying on his type rating, then surely the captains are duty-bound to alternate pax/ferry sectors – heck, if it means sometimes giving the FOs more sectors than the captains so that they can utilise your LHS option, then so what??

 

[realityman]

Mike, that's actually pretty close to how we do it here (as far as flying pax legs, not about the language thing). The vast majority of our captains will simply alternate legs. We have a few who don't, but they really are few and far between.

Believe it or not, we even have a few F/O's who won't fly pax legs, simply because they don't want to do it from the right seat. That's their prerogative. Again, few and far between though.

Re-read Porter's posts. Really think about what he's saying, what he's complaining about, and how he's presenting himself. I think it'll become clear who is doing the most 'willy waving'.

The exaggerations are the best. Like I said, I'm an IOE instructor. There's no passing IOE with 'flying colors'. Every single person, when finished with IOE, will have an "S" under each task to be completed. That's it. No A++, or B- or gold star or anything like that. Maybe his IOE instructor wrote some nice things about his performance in the comments section. Big deal. We all do that when they do things right.

Look at his claim of being in the top 20 or 30%. Say what? How does he know that the people who got turned down in the class before him weren't better than him? Maybe he was just lucky in who he got interviewed with. There's no objective way to determine if he's in the top 30%, or the bottom 5% when it comes to new hires. In fact, there's no way to compare him to all the folks that came before him and were turned down. It depended on our needs at the time of hiring. You don't think his claims are just a bit ego-driven?

I can truly sympathize with him if he isn't doing any flying with pax. But 5 months of captains that haven't let him fly a single pax leg? I'm thinking that's either a bit of a stretch, or maybe he has some deficiencies in his flying he just won't admit to.

The tone of his posts points a maturity level of somewhere in the range of a 15-year-old. Gold seal instructor? Who cares? What relevance does that have? We're not asking him to teach anyone to fly. In fact, just the opposite. As a newhire, he might actually learn a lot (what to do and what NOT to do) if he'd let go of the ego and accept that our captains our experienced pilots, probably with credentials more impressive than his.

He says he wants a fix to this problem, but he's posting his complaints in the place where it's least likely to make any difference. He's been told how and where to handle it appropriately. Whether he's doing it remains to be seen.

Who is he to test our pilots, which is what he's doing by letting things go with his current captain to see if he'll be allowed to fly pax? He says his captain this tour is a nice guy, so what's the problem with talking it over with him?

Too many things point to our captains NOT being the problem.

 

[glasspilot]

Mr. Jenvey,

I reject your view point wholly as it the perspective an Englishmen. Your country is backward and therefore no reasonable opinion could be expected to come forth. Your horse races are even run in a clockwise direction, thus proving how backward English thinking is.

As further proof, here is the classic 1996 memorandum from your countries leading airline, British Airways:


There appears to be some confusion over the new pilot role titles. This notice will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings.

The titles P1, P2 and Co-Pilot will now cease to have any meaning, within the Operations Manual. They are to be replaced by Handling Pilot, Non-Handling Pilot, Non-Handling Landing Pilot, Handling Non-Landing Pilot and Non-Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is initially the Handling Pilot and will handle the take-off and landing except in role reversal when he is the Non-Handling Pilot for taxi until the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Landing Pilot at 80 knots.

The Non-Landing (Non-Handling, since the Landing Pilot is handling) Pilot reads the checklist to the Handling Pilot until after the Before Descent Checklist completion. Then the Handling Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non- Handling Non-Landing Pilot who then becomes the Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is the Non-Handling Pilot until the "Decision Altitude" call, when the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non-Handling Landing Pilot, unless the latter calls "Go Around", in which case the Handling Non-Landing Pilot continues handling and the Non-Handling Landing Pilot continues non-handling until the next call of "Land" or "Go Around", as appropriate.

In view of the recent confusion over these rules, it was deemed necessary to restate them clearly.




PS, I married a Brit.

 

[brokeflyer]

I bet porter dont even work here.....we all got had "had" by this thread.....lol

 

[Mike Jenvey]

<<<< I reject your view point wholly as it the perspective an Englishmen. Your country is backward and therefore no reasonable opinion could be expected to come forth. Your horse races are even run in a clockwise direction, thus proving how backward English thinking is.>>>>

Oomph - unfair!! You'll hit me with the Boston Tea Party next......

Still, at least we drive on the proper side of the road & have cars that don't use a super-tanker's load of fuel to get the parking lot at the Mall! And before you retaliate, note that Mr Ford's first decent car had the steering wheel in the middle!!

RM - all noted, but I was also basing my viewpoint on some of the less subtle & informed replies! Maybe I got hooked by the trolls!!

 

[B727FA]

As a newhire, he might actually learn a lot (what to do and what NOT to do) if he'd let go of the ego and accept that our captains our experienced pilots, probably with credentials more impressive than his.

The difference, though, is that the CA's wouldn't brag about it. I've been amazed at the humility of everyone here...Mr G, (VP Training/Standards) wrote a personal note to me to apologize for not being there to meet me on my first day of Indoc. I am in awe!

 

[Cloudroller]

have you told them your a gold seal CFI?

 

[av8trinabarrel]

I bet porter dont even work here.....we all got had "had" by this thread.....lol

No sheet..being one of those guys thats been here less than a year, I find porter too be a total maroon. I have busted my rear to show my CA's that I am no porter type. Work hard, have a good attitude and show our pax the best customer service. Expect nothing and you wont be disappointed..if you do indeed work here!

 

[FoxJet]

You're afraid to discuss this on the union web site because you're on probation? You openly admit you have not discussed this with these stuck up captains, but bitch about internal issues on a public forum? Your decision making and judgement are clearly lacking. Grow up.

Exactly!

BTW I'm in my 3rd year at NJ and have alternated every leg since IOE.

 

[superfly]

This is old news

Varries fleet to fleet pilot to pilot. Small planes means more flying for FO's because less ego and seniority. In the old days Cappy flew the people because that's what ma wanted. Then there was some good weather exceptions added. Now it's up to cappy with little hand holding. Many old timers have a tough time with changing, have probably never read the FOM.

I think the none flying pilot is more important job. However, I alternate ever leg unless the FO wants to mix it up to sit in the left seat.

Who really cares who flies, we are all highly trained.

Pay me to sit in the hotel to reduce my stress!

 

[Wacopilot]

Porter, you are an idiot. How do I know that, because you came on this website to complain. By your own account you are a wonderful pilot and a gift to any cockpit and should have no problem getting a job elsewhere.... so leave. Flying with someone like you for 7 days is such fun. Get over yourself.

Waco

 

[OurMoney1]

Porter is a yssup.........

Someone needs to find him and kick his ssa.

Pathetic

 

[DAS at 10/250]

No sheet..being one of those guys thats been here less than a year, I find porter too be a total maroon. I have busted my rear to show my CA's that I am no porter type. Work hard, have a good attitude and show our pax the best customer service. Expect nothing and you wont be disappointed..if you do indeed work here!

Ha! I figured you'd be lurking in this thread somewhere.

Back to work junior!

 

[superfly]

Are you a super pilot?

Porter, you are an idiot. How do I know that, because you came on this website to complain. By your own account you are a wonderful pilot and a gift to any cockpit and should have no problem getting a job elsewhere.... so leave. Flying with someone like you for 7 days is such fun. Get over yourself.

Waco

While the Porter post is over the top, Who cares about your resume! He brings up ligit concerns with pilots who fly all pax legs. We now fly pax 83% of the time. By not spliting the legs it could create a potentially hostile cockpit. Maybe the fo will just let you screw up because he thinks you're an a hole.

Do what you want on the road, just food for thought.

 

[Semore Butts]

So let me get this straight Superfly,

By not spliting the legs it could create a potentially hostile cockpit

If you don't get your way your gonna become hostile?

There is no safety issue taking place accept that you aren't getting your way as SIC?

WTF is going on around here???????

 

[o2bflyn]

Throught my career thus far it has always been the same thing. When I was an FO, I had to earn the CPT trust before I could fly the pax. When I was CPT, I made damn sure the FO was not going to fly like a 12 cargo pilot playing an arcade game (jerking the airplane around the sky).

Here is the bottom line in my eyes. If you (FO) don't think you are getting enough legs. Speak up.....grow a set. Stop pissing and moaning about it to message boards.

Personally, I am sick of people thinking the world owes them something because they "did this, or did that." What happened to earning your way. Gaining respect from your colleages. Stop complaining that "Captain Flyitall" is not giving you any legs...speak up. Stop complaining that " they owe me a call back.".....make the call happen for you because the truth is they don't owe you sh!t.


I am only in my lower 30's and I think my generation has a lot to learn about what it is "owed" in life.

 

[Hogprint]

<<<< I reject your view point wholly as it the perspective an Englishmen. Your country is backward and therefore no reasonable opinion could be expected to come forth. Your horse races are even run in a clockwise direction, thus proving how backward English thinking is.>>>>

Oomph - unfair!! You'll hit me with the Boston Tea Party next......

Still, at least we drive on the proper side of the road & have cars that don't use a super-tanker's load of fuel to get the parking lot at the Mall! And before you retaliate, note that Mr Ford's first decent car had the steering wheel in the middle!!

RM - all noted, but I was also basing my viewpoint on some of the less subtle & informed replies! Maybe I got hooked by the trolls!!

Obviously Mike your not a Top Gear fan!

 

[o2bflyn]

Obviously Mike your not a Top Gear fan!

That is a great show!!!!

 

[Crossky]

As an RJ CA outsider, I can see there is a a culture difference between the airlines and the frax. Perhaps because some CA's in the corp and 135 world who come to the frax were taught to have more caution in permitting new FO's to fly live legs.

Come to the regionals and you could fly (and land) half the flights, up to 86 people, a larger airplane, and for 1/2 of what you make now! Just a little fun comparison.

Seriously, this thread is 12 pages long because you're airing your dirty laudry here and NJ pilots are protecting their turf and repuptation. You could've posted on NJ's pilot board but as a probie you're being cautious - you've got a reputation to think about as well. The PIC advocates have piled it on a little excessively.

CA's should let you fly half the legs (IMO). If they don't, tough. But you should ask them why if it bugs the crap out of you.

If it's in NJ's ops manual that the CA and FO should swap legs, but your experience hasn't been that, well, that's unfortunate.

 

[gunfyter]

A long time ago, when a person could win a bid to upgrade sometimes within 6 months on the property -- The ops manual specified PIC flying pax from left seat and sic's flying the other legs to the maximum extent possible from the left seat....

Why? Because they wanted them to have left seat time for the soon to come upgrade.

Many people just stuck with the way things were done in the past .. but the reason no longer exists.

I don't think there are a bunch of pr*cks out there trying to cheat people out of stick time. Whenever I have offered the pax legs people have almost always said they preferred left seat to pax flying.

 

[Diesel]

Just get my cofffee and shut the F&*K up.










oh F*##k i'm back to being an FO.

 

[Crossky]

It's Veteran's Day today. If you're a Veteran, thank you for your service and sacrifice for our country.


Another thing someone pointed out is that we don't know the CA's side of the story, which is true.

I myself know that when I started out flying commuter T-props I was 29, had a thinner skin, and less maturity and experience than know. By experience I mean in dealing with conflict and resolution with others I worked closely with (pilots).

I've had FO's get testy with me when I don't let them land or takeoff at DCA when they have less than 100 hours. Tough, that's the regs and DCA can be a tough cookie. He got over it. This guy will too.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Ha! I figured you'd be lurking in this thread somewhere.

Back to work junior!

Speaking of lurking..Is that you porter all dressed up like Stuey

 

[RNObased]

Personally, I am sick of people thinking the world owes them something because they "did this, or did that." What happened to earning your way. Gaining respect from your colleages. Stop complaining that "Captain Flyitall" is not giving you any legs...speak up. Stop complaining that " they owe me a call back.".....make the call happen for you because the truth is they don't owe you sh!t.


I am only in my lower 30's and I think my generation has a lot to learn about what it is "owed" in life.

It is called a inflated sense of entitlement. Didn't you realize that when you were born that the world owed you a 6 digit flying job and all the beer you can drink.

My brother-in-law who flies for a major says they have a name for this disorder. It is called S.N.A.P. it stands for Sensitive New Age Pilot, it comes from watching too much Oprah, or that is what some people believe.

 

[o2bflyn]

It is called a inflated sense of entitlement. Didn't you realize that when you were born that the world owed you a 6 digit flying job and all the beer you can drink.

My brother-in-law who flies for a major says they have a name for this disorder. It is called S.N.A.P. it stands for Sensitive New Age Pilot, it comes from watching too much Oprah, or that is what some people believe.

haha....that would explain it. Its a good thing I spent my time watching Dr. Phil. I am still a jerk, but I feel better about it.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

<<<< Obviously Mike you're not a Top Gear fan! >>>>

You couldn't be further from the truth - one of the best programmes on UK television!! Latest episode (this week) had the 3 guys driving 3 different 'Merican "muscle" cars, including doing one mile speed trials at Bonneville (170+ mph!!!) - & they all liked the cars!

Must have been the hot weather on the salt strip!!

Our Veterans' Day today too - nice coverage of Intrepid back in NY harbour.

 

[xpdriver]

Would it make you feel better if you could fly pax from an RJ or just be happy you are at the best aviation job in the world. Gold seal flight instructor,now thats funny..... Turns around TEB...

 

[CA1900]

Turns around TEB...

I thought they discontinued that procedure?

 

[fly4funcrj]

That procedure can only be flown by a netjets captain in the left seat while the f/o s not occupying the right seat. Said f/o must be in the back with the pax as to not disturb the highly decorated netjets captain.


Before you get your panties in a bunch, this is humor..

 

[o2bflyn]

That procedure can only be flown by a netjets captain in the left seat while the f/o s not occupying the right seat. Said f/o must be in the back with the pax as to not disturb the highly decorated netjets captain.


Before you get your panties in a bunch, this is humor..

LMAO.....great!