NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[Porter]

I am a NetJets FO that has been at the company about 7 months. I have been on the line for almost 5 months. I have 200 hours in my aircraft type. I have 5000 hours total time. I have flown 10 different turbine aircraft, upgraded to Captain 3 times over at 3 different 135 operations (once in a different jet). I am a Gold Seal flight instructor (CFII, MEI) who is an expert on teaching and performing such "advanced" flying techniques as the "dreaded" crosswind landing. I have flown all over the country around some of the worst weather imaginable and had to make tough decisions. In other words, this is not my first rodeo.

NetJets hired me because they had confidence in my experience and my abilities. I passed training and IOE with flying colors. I'm pretty sure I've impressed (as have many others hired at NetJets and other companies) my Captains that I've flown with every time. I am "young" in the scheme of things with a lot of career ahead of me, which I suspect is causing some unfair prejudging from some of you "advanced" in years folks.

This subject has been touched on before on these threads but I want to highlight again here because I am honestly amazed at the consistency among my Captains. What I am getting at is that since flying with this company I have yet to fly a SINGLE passenger leg. RIDICULOUS !!!

I haven't confronted anyone about it yet because It hasn't been necessary. Before about a month ago there were enough ferry legs that I just didn't care. Lately however there are more and more back to back passenger legs. I had 3 back to back pax legs today alone. Every time we get to the before takeoff brief, the Captain (who hasn't "seen" me fly yet to "see" if he thinks I am good enough) once again utters the familiar words, "Left seat takeoff.....", meaning once again it ain't my turn.

This is absurd. The egos at this place are amazing!!! Are you serious? Airline pilots fly pax legs and landings on IOE for craps sake! What is the deal. Yes I have the balls. Yes I am going to say something. The bottom line is I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!!!!! It is an insult that you guys think your colleagues don't have "the right stuff". We've already passed the 4 phases of the interview, the training, and the IOE Captain's recommendation. Having said that we've already "payed our dues" and "been there and done that" when we get to NetJets. Get off your high horses!!!!

The ONLY time a First Officer shouldn't be flying EVERY OTHER LEG is if it is discussed before hand and the particular FO expresses that he is not comfortable because of how he feels about his OWN experience, OR the Captain decides to use his PIC authority and SPECIFICALLY briefs to his FO the reason why he is taking the leg. The Captain should have to make a case for it in other words if he is going to exercise his authority in this way. Even so, in my opinion, we are all the best judge of our own abilities. Most of us are not going to try to be heroes and will communicate that to our Captain's at that time. Give us the benefit of the doubt!

Many times over I hear the familiar question, "How long have you been here." I tell them and very often hear something condescending like, "Ohh, a newby." As If I just soloed the day before. Once on a ferry leg during a very gusty maximum component crosswind landing I had a Captain ask me this question on short final. After answering he put his hand up to the yoke and feet near the rudder pedals. It was insulting. I don't care who you are it was. He started to sweat as I greased it on and executed my SOP's perfectly.

You guys are going to have (and have had this year) a lot of new pilots coming into this company. Show some respect for where we came from and what it took to get here!!! Most of us hired this year were the top 20-30% of our classes. The cream of the crop!

We are on probation and therefore obviously fear retribution or getting on the "wrong" list. We shouldn't have to feel that way. Somebody needs to address this.

I am not alone in feeling this way specifically about the Captain's at NJ. There have been other threads.

Anyway, I'm done. Let the flaming begin.

 

[barnyard]

What fleet you in??? Sounds like you've been paired with a bunch of 5%ers.

I'm in the hawker-- every time I meet a new dude they always ask "so how do you like to do the flying?"
That is, when I'm not paired with a 5%er.

 

[skiandsurf]

I am a NetJets FO that has been at the company about 7 months. .

Lighten up Francis.

I have been at NJs for about 3 yrs. I only fly empty legs, from the left seat, by choice. All of my flying for the past 15 yrs is from the left seat, so I just feel more comfortable there.

Typically the passenger flights are the longer flights, so I would just assume talk on the radios. The ferry flights are shorter, and therefore busier. I would rather fly that and let the captain bust his a$$.

At this point, you have a career job. You get paid the same. So enjoy the company of the ATC controller to talk to.

 

[barnyard]

I just re-read your post... kinda sounds like you need to get over yourself!!!

How exactly do you pass ioe with "flying colors" and were in the the top 20-30% of your class??

The most enjoyable tours here are when every pilot treats the other as if they are on the same page-- not that "this is MY side of the cockpit" BS. I'd hate to see arrogance coming from the SIC's just because it's harder to get hired here these days!

 

[CA1900]

What I am getting at is that since flying with this company I have yet to fly a SINGLE passenger leg. RIDICULOUS !!!

I agree. It must be a fleet-specific thing, as I've never seen such a thing in the Excel. I'm assuming you're in something else?

Why not approach this subject on our message board? This was hashed out last year (on the old board, so it's gone), and a lot of good came out of it. I'd suggest bringing it up.

I had 3 back to back pax legs today alone. Every time we get to the before takeoff brief, the Captain (who hasn't "seen" me fly yet to "see" if he thinks I am good enough) once again utters the familiar words, "Left seat takeoff.....", meaning once again it ain't my turn.

Not to be a dick here, but have you actually talked to your captain about this? Just flat-out ask him: "Why is it you're taking all the legs?" Short, and to the point.

This is absurd. The egos at this place are amazing!!!

Don't stereotype the group by what a few freaks do; that's not the norm around here.

Are you serious? Airline pilots fly pax legs and landings on IOE for craps sake!

I'll make a suggestion: when making your case, don't use the word "airline" at all. It won't help. You're right, and I agree with you, but it still won't help. We're not an airline, and the minute you compare us to one (despite the many similarities) a lot of guys will lock up and get defensive. Skip that route, address this issue directly.

"Capt. X, I've been authorized to fly passengers per our manual for five months now. I need to keep in practice if I'm going to be a useful part of this crew."

Don't get emotional like you're being in this message. Be cool, be professional, and ask him what the issue is.

If he's unresponsive, I think a call to professional standards may be in order, because that's not reasonable, in my opinion. But I'd still put it out on the union board for discussion; you'll get more reasoned opinions than you'll find here.

Most of us hired this year were the top 20-30% of our classes. The cream of the crop!

Might want to tone down the ego, too, or the conversation will not go well. That paragraph sends up a bit of a red flag to me that says you might be contributing to the problem. Don't be defensive at that statement -- just step back and see it for what it is. That comes across as amazingly condescending.



On to the issue at hand:

Sitting there stewing in the right seat, saying nothing, accomplishes nothing.

Ranting about your frustration here on Flightinfo also accomplishes nothing.


If you want to address the issue, you need to address it with the person creating this issue, and that's the guy you're flying with. That's the first step.

Good luck.

 

[Porter]

Ok barnyard, I can see where you might think that. If you knew me you might think differently.

As you said, "The most enjoyable tours here are when every pilot treats the other as if they are on the same page." That goes to the very heart of what I said. I am not getting that feeling from the majority of the Captain's I've flown with (haven't flown with the same one twice). Hence the rant.

Also, the top 20-30% I refer to is the 2/10, 3/12 etc. hired from each interview class. You guys and gals hired this year know what I'm talking about

To Ski, I agree with your "short legs are more fun" point. However, what happens when this company gets so efficient though that only 20% of the legs are ferry legs? Are you going to be satisfied with the amount of time that you actually get to fly the airplane? It isn't that I'm not thrilled to have this job, it's just that I am very surprised at the attitudes of many Captain's here.

And once again, others in the past have commented on this being a problem specific to NetJets.

 

[RJ Bum]

Not the place to have this conversation. Try the union boards or pro standards if needed.

 

[Porter]

Easy for you to say RJ Bum. Still on probation and that won't happen until I am here a year.

CA1900, thanks for your words. I've read many of your posts before and after coming to NetJets and you are always full of some good wisdom.

You are right, I should have said something today. The only problem was it just wasn't the right time to do it in the cockpit. I should have done it in between legs but I barely had time to clean the plane and eat a meal in time for the next leg. It was just one of those days.

I am going to talk to him tomorrow before the pax get there. He seems like a good guy and will probably be very receptive.

However, the issue is how many times will I have to do this? Like I said, never flown with the same Captain twice. If I had voiced this every time I felt like it over the past month or so it would have been to all 6 or 7 Captain's. Yes that sounds odd but it's true. All my landings and SOPs were up to snuff (to my knowledge) with these guys so I just can't figure it out.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I'll take it to heart.

 

[CA1900]

It seems different fleets seem to have different "cultures"; maybe that's one of them specific to the fleet you're in? If so, it's one that needs to go away as we go forward; hopefully your conversation tomorrow will be the first step in fixing that.

Even if you get resolution in this one, I still think you should bring it up on the union board. It's a discussion that we need to have again, apparently!

Good luck. Hope it turns out well.

 

[skiandsurf]

We had a ferry flight last week, that had a company pilot in the back. My captain said I couldnt sit in the left seat with a pax in the back. No problem. I am not here to build time or sharpen my skills. I am here to go home on day 7, and get paid every other friday. When I upgrade, I can be in charge again. Until then, I am the FO, and do as I am told.


...I have had 1 captain let me fly pax from the left seat. It was a long day and he had flown all the flights the day before. We had flown together before, so he knew me and trusted me. I am not sure if this was ok, but he is an IOE instructor so I figured he would know better.

 

[RJ Bum]

Easy for you to say RJ Bum. Still on probation and that won't happen until I am here a year.

Unless things have changed very recently, you don't have to be off probation to go on the boards. I could be wrong.

Hey man, I feel your pain. I've been her a year and a half and being an airline guy, it took me a while to get used to some of the quarks. All I'm saying is that it's easy to forget that this is a public message board, and owners do log on here. No reason to rant about something you can easily talk to your captain or other NetJet employees in private about.

But ride it out man, ya get payed the same and I assume you're here for the long haul so enjoy the job. You're not building time anymore.

 

[Porter]

We had a ferry flight last week, that had a company pilot in the back. My captain said I couldnt sit in the left seat with a pax in the back. No problem. I am not here to build time or sharpen my skills. I am here to go home on day 7, and get paid every other friday. When I upgrade, I can be in charge again. Until then, I am the FO, and do as I am told.

I disagree. This is your viewpoint and opinion and that's fine, I'm obviously on here expressing mine.

However, I don't get it. Do you really think that is "what you are here for". When it comes to this issue it isn't about "who is in charge". Sounds to me like you are of like mind with these types of Captain's and will be part of the problem when you upgrade.

You are part of a CREW. Period. Ultimately the PIC has the final say so, and it should be that way, but a crew is a crew and we should treat each other with mutual respect regardless of the seat. Like I said before (and NO I was NOT tooting my own horn, I was trying to highlight that I've been on both sides of the fence many times) I've been a Captain and had to confront this very issue before. As a Captain I have turned to my FO and explained to him that I would be taking the leg due to the sketchy weather, not that I thought that I could do it better, but that if we dinged something I wanted it to be because I did it. Then they would always get the next two legs if the situation permitted it.

I'm not here to build time or "sharpen" my skills either. This is a career for me. However, I need to stay current. I also need to feel part of the team and respected by my colleagues. If you don't need that that's fine, but I and many others do.

I'm glad on other fleets there is a ritual discussion on this issue when new crews are paired up. I haven't seen it on mine.

 

[sparticusflt]

I am a Gold Seal flight instructor (CFII, MEI) who is an expert on teaching and performing such "advanced" flying techniques as the "dreaded" crosswind landing.

Dude I wouldn't let you fly passengers after reading that dorky statement. An actual expert of teaching and performing. Wow. We've done things the same for years here. It takes a while to reprogram people, it will happen shortly. Sooner or later. I know in the G200 we no longer swap seats anymore. A lot of guys have a problem with that, on account of they are equally typed. However, the airlines do it so whats the big deal. No tiller time?

As far as swapping passenger legs I agree, I really don't care. Most of the guys like to fly the empty legs. Whatever. You sound younger, you have time, and being an Expert Gold Seal flight instructor you will get your chance soon enough.

Talk to the guys about swapping, if they have no problem then good. If they do, then maybe you should just STFU, take the paycheck and not get on an outside board. Your on probation, big deal. You think the company and union is going to target you for speaking your opinion? Come on already. Maybe you shouldn't be flying passenger legs on account that your to afraid to man up or grow up. You just might find out that maybe you might be one of the dorks we make fun of, or perhaps your not as smooth as you think you are. Or maybe your just a tool that we can't stand and prefer to irritate you by not allowing you to fly passenger legs.

 

[skiandsurf]

In my past life I was a captain for 15 yrs. I never had to take a plane from anyone, or didnt let a guy fly. But those were the airline days, when you slammed it on and laughed about while not caring about the people in the back (you know what I mean). This is a different type of flying. The captain has more responsibilties at the fractionals than at the airlines. I am here to assist him. I usually have 10,000 hours more flight time, but I understand that he is the captain and its his a$$. I dont have a problem with that. Do I still like to fly? sure I do. Do I want to fly from the right seat? Not really. Can I fly from the right seat? sure, its just a little odd for me. Do I get upset if I dont fly during the tour? not at all. I am here to help the captain, go home, and get paid. The rest will take care of itself.

 

[x402]

Hey Porter,
Let us know what fleet you have landed in (DA2000)
Do you get paid any less for PNF?
You have an incredible job, relax. When you have the chance you can be the PIC you always wanted to fly with.
The PIC's at NJA are nothing like you suggest, I know because I am one.

 

[Porter]

Sparticus, you didn't get it. That was a little sarcasm, dorky or not. Read it again. The quotations define it as sarcasm.

Anyway, sounds like you are one of the 5% and part of the problem. You wouldn't "LET" me fly pax because of a "dorky" statement. WOW.

Also, I never mentioned seat swapping. I'm talking about flying every other leg from your assigned seat. Not from the left seat.

Also, telling someone to "STFU" when they are expressing a legitimate concern once again goes right to the heart of the matter. Man I hope I never have to fly with you. And no I am not on the G200.

One of the "dorks" "We" make fun of. "Perhaps I am not as smooth as I think I am???". I won't defend this statement because it doesn't deserve it. Once again you paint yourself as the EXACT type I am talking about.

Also, your assumption that new hires at NJ need to be "reprogrammed" sounds like your way of saying that none of us new what we were doing before we learned the "real" way to fly at NJ. Get over yourself.

 

[Porter]

The PIC's at NJA are nothing like you suggest, I know because I am one.

How very humble of you. I stand utterly corrected.

 

[skyaddict]

Strange- it sounds like a fleet specific issue and bad luck in your start day's cohort? Once I met the minimums for time in type for pax legs, it has *never* been an issue with the scores of Captains I have flown with. Almost all have alternated legs with me, and many have asked if that's ok with me in case I do end up with the stubby ferry legs. But usually, 60% of legs are so are pax so it ends up mixing up even then i.e. sometimes I get all the pax legs.

 

[skyismyoffice]

Wow! These problems are exactly why I don't work at Net Jets. That and maybe the fact that I didn't get hired the first time .

If you really need to fly passenger legs so bad I suggest going to Flight Options. We usually swap in and out of the left seat every other day. Oh, but then there is the other pesky problems of being the lowest paid, still fighting with management for our first contract, etc...

I'm not sure what your previous job was, but I think you have lost perspective that you now have one of the best flying jobs. Chill out, have fun, take your big paycheck home. Most of us on the outside would be glad to have your problems. You will get to be the boss someday...

 

[o2bflyn]

If you confronted me with this kind of rant I probably would not let you fly either. I understand what you are saying but I think you are go at it all wrong.

Maybe the Captains have seen something in your flying that they don't like. Ask them. "Hey is there something I have done wrong?" You m ay find if you confront them in a professional manner, they may just give you a chance.

Believe me, I know that there are Captains that are out there that think they are the next Chuck Yeager. My advice would be to play into their ego. "Hey man, what do I need to work on so I can fly more legs?"

For the record, if you walked onto my airplane with only a few months experience and I had not flown with you. I would not let you fly passengers either at first. Show me you can fly the airplane first then I'll let you embarrass yourself with passengers.