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NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

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It's taken a while, but I've finally made it through this thread. Outside of the glib commments, there is some interesting discussion. In my AF G-V unit, our FO's fly most of the legs. On a 5 leg trip, the aircraft commander or IP will only fly 1 or 2 of the legs. However, we have a reg restriction that the aircraft commander must fly an actual CAT II or do the landing if you have an emergency. I don't know why, but I figured that the frac world at least traded legs for the most part...
 
And this isn't a "beat up on the SIC" practice. NetJets doesn't release Captains directly to the line following UPG training for just this reason. New PICs fly as a PSIC for a period of months until they develop a solid operational experience base former from experience, not simulation.

Grasshopper.... you have much to learn.

Since November of last year, there is no such thing as a PSIC. As soon as a pilot completes IOE, he/she is a fully released captain on high mins. They did away with that as part of the new contract. There are MANY cases where the SIC has A LOT more experience in the airplane than the captain. Just thought you should know.
 
I thought I made a very valid point. All you can come up with is "I give up"?

Let's try again. Why do FO's ever need to sit in the left seat?

If the company wants to type everyone then fine. Type 'em. But why do they have to stay current forcing extra evaluation and proficiency from the left seat during recurrent? Just type them so NetJets can advertise fully typed crews and then let them stay in the right seat until upgrade. The only practical reason I can think of was two FOs repositioning an aircraft and you scoffed at that idea. Why I'm not sure as they are freaking TYPED in the damn plane! Why would you care if two FOs who are TYPED flew together?!?!?

So how about you put away your ego and attitude and come up with an answer?


Hey jackass, Two sic pilots flying together? Who do you work for? It's not my ego that's making me say I give up. It's your lack of attention span.

Goodnight.
 
It's taken a while, but I've finally made it through this thread. Outside of the glib commments, there is some interesting discussion. In my AF G-V unit, our FO's fly most of the legs. On a 5 leg trip, the aircraft commander or IP will only fly 1 or 2 of the legs. However, we have a reg restriction that the aircraft commander must fly an actual CAT II or do the landing if you have an emergency. I don't know why, but I figured that the frac world at least traded legs for the most part...


If you take an actual poll of ALL the guys, you'd see that for the most part, we do swap legs. Even if the sic only flies the empty legs, most of the time it stays 50/50. You'll see guys say that it's changed to 70/30 but I haven't seen it. Neither has it changed for the guys I talk to. You may have a tour once in a while with a 70/30 ratio, but most of the time it's still 50/50.
 
Grasshopper.... you have much to learn.

Since November of last year, there is no such thing as a PSIC. As soon as a pilot completes IOE, he/she is a fully released captain on high mins. They did away with that as part of the new contract. There are MANY cases where the SIC has A LOT more experience in the airplane than the captain. Just thought you should know.


G,

I'm not going to point/counterpoint you on the most recent structure of a training department that is being gutted and rebuilt into a completely different animal. My upgrade was years ago and I have not been around the training world. I fly the line. I wouldn't even pretend to WANT to try and keep up with the changes.

Please reread the portion of my original post in regards to "polish".

You'll get it when you upgrade if you don't now...
 
For those PIC's that want to take all the legs going into Aspen, Coral Reef, wet, slick runway, etc., I sure hope you are proficient and/or taking the experience and skill level of your SIC into account before you decide to take the leg.

There's nothing worse as an SIC than having the other guy take the leg from you for "safety reasons" and then completely bungle it. I wonder who has more time and experience on average, our PIC's or our SIC's? I bet it's close.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not necessarily buying into the concept that the PIC is always the safest or most qualified to make a challenging approach and landing. I understand why you might want to because there are times when I would like to take the leg as SIC, not that I would ever say that out loud.

If you are a very proficient PIC, as 95% of you are, I would be happy to give up the leg to make you feel more comfortable, though I might be thinking it's a little arrogant of you.
 
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Hey jackass, Two sic pilots flying together? Who do you work for? It's not my ego that's making me say I give up. It's your lack of attention span.

Goodnight.


You sir, are an imbecile. I have not resorted to name calling (until now). I was asking an honest question, one that you don't seem to have an answer to. I've spelled it out with third grade language and yet you still can't seem answer the question. You simply resort to name calling.

Do FOs fly together at my company? No. But it's the only logical reason I can think of to require FOs to train from the left seat. You F'ing dolt!

So...piss off.
 
"Hmmmm. Never flew an air conditioner."

Very witty...idiot.
 
Glass, if your attention span was a bit longer than a page, you'd know that I have answered your questions several times. If you can't grasp the fact that it has to do with the way the training was set up years ago, then I can't help you. You're now throwing in crap questions like why two SICs can't fly together if they're typed. Could they at a part 91 company? Sure, I guess they could but I think they'd be considered co-captains. Here at NJA, there's a lot more to know than just flying the airplane when you're a captain. Things that the SIC will learn over time. Why are you so bent around the axle that they're typed? The fact that they're typed doesn't mean jack when it comes to the upgrade process here.
 
G,

I'm not going to point/counterpoint you on the most recent structure of a training department that is being gutted and rebuilt into a completely different animal. My upgrade was years ago and I have not been around the training world. I fly the line. I wouldn't even pretend to WANT to try and keep up with the changes.

Please reread the portion of my original post in regards to "polish".

You'll get it when you upgrade if you don't now...

Take it easy man. It was meant light-heartedly. I was just letting you know that things changed and it appeared that you weren't aware of it.

BTW, I upgraded 10 years ago.
 
You might not be a NetJets pilot if you share the above opinion.

I might not be. I have however, spent the last ten years plying my trade in two-person cockpits. Like you, I've made some observations along the way.

Generally, I will absolutely alternate legs. Occasionally, I will take the next leg depending on the circumstances.

ie...

*Coral Reef Club,

*Aspen on a busy and poor weather day,

*Landing at a back-woods short runway airport on a slick and rainy day with gusty winds.

As is your right. Chances are your ops manual, like mine, includes a provision for just such a situation. Those come in two varieties though. First, instances where the Captain is required to fly the airplane on that leg. Operations such as monitored approaches below a certain visibility, special airports for low-mins FO's - that sort of thing. I'm sure NJ has some very specifically delineated instances spelled out and that's fine. I'm not suggesting the FO should fly on those legs.

However, you mention challenging situations - let's take your example of ASE. Several thoughts come to mind.


Without hands-on experience, your FO's airmanship will suffer. I could easily see a situation where Captain after Captain takes the "tricky" ASE leg. Come upgrade time the individual now has to step up and color, without the benefit of ever having done so before.

Is that safe?

Type rating or not, it's safer for a pilot to see someone else operating in challenging airport environments 1st before taking the controls and operating in them personally (IMHO). This isn't a MAN contest. This is a customer service job.

Actually, the latest human factors research shows there is less chance of an incident or accident if the Captain is performing as the PM with the FO flying. Why? Because that way,you're not loaded up with attempting to manipulate the airplane in a challenging environment while being monitored by a less-experienced pilot. Try that sometimes - you'll find it a much lower workload situation to have the FO fly while you sit there and monitor.

NJ does not sell "minimum certifications" (FAA APPROVED) to our Owners. NetJets sells higher standards to our Owners in the interests of safety and comfort. It's those couple of notches above "legal" that our Owners pay for and receive. It's called "polish" and we love to give it.

So what you're saying is that as Captain, you have higher standards than what the company used to certify the crewperson? That you'll be the final arbitrator as to whether or not an FO is "polished" enough to manipulate the controls?

This brings me to the crux of my complaint. Never mind that safety is not enhanced by taking an FO's legs away from them, the most important issue is precisely that - you're taking away their flying. By doing so you demonstrate to them that you do not trust them, that you are not confident enough in your own skills, that all that drinking from the fire hose and jumping through the hoops of multiple checkrides they did in training wasn't enough. Now they've got too meet your standards, a capricious, moving set of non-defined parameters exercised inconsistently by every Captain they come into contact with?

Give me a break.

You might as well just show up for the trip and say:

"Screw you, I'm a better pilot and I'm not afraid to let you know about it."

The end effect on tone and communication is exactly the same.

Again, I'm not pointing fingers here. I used to do it myself, all under the guise of customer service and safety. I was wrong every time I did it. I didn't have enough confidence in myself and quite frankly didn't know any better, it was the environment I was brought up in.

Here's a question: who's more important to take care of, the person paying the bils in back or your flying partner?

Is the passenger going to save your behind with a critical piece of information that breaks the error chain and keeps you out of the CP's office? Will you someday be an employee of the passenger, happy that you treated him or her well in the past by not allowing that poor excuse for an FO to fly the airplane?

Of course not, but you'd better believe the two scenarios could take place with your FO, particularly the former.

You need to share legs. There is no valid argument for not allowing a qualified FO to handle the jet when it's their turn to do so. By insisting on flying it for them, you degrade safety, create a poor culture for any meaningful CRM and ignore your responsibility to help them develop their flying skills.

PS - thanks for the opportunity to debate this issue in a positive manner!:beer:
 
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I have offered pax legs to the SICs for years....as long as I can remember. You would be surprised how many DON'T want the pax legs. They only want to fly from the left seat.

6 months ago I had 13 out of 15 legs in a week occupied.

Last tour I had 4 in a row, 1 ferry and then two more pax legs.

My issue is I want the SIC to be comfortable flying in the right seat should something happen. If they never fly from the right I am not sure how that is possible. I try and fly from the right every couple months just to have confidence that I could get it on the ground without too much distraction if we are on a ferry leg and the FO is flying from the left.
 
bluepost,

I guarantee ya, if you offer me the chance to fly a leg. I would take it, in either seat.
I always try to keep the legs even, however so we end with about the same amount of practice.
 
Fly? I am just as happy talking on the radio and watching (managing) the flight deck. Ever notice that most plane crashes are flown (crashed) by the captain. Egos? FOs not speaking up?

Since the captains dont manage, I dont mind doing his job.

(when airlining on SWA, do you sit up front to be the first one off, or sit in the back to keep an eye on everyone? ....I sit in the back).

This job is not about flying, its about going home on day 7.
 
xcel/xls,the flying is 50/50 with 90 percent of the capts,pax legs,ferrys, it all evens out,no complaints here, love this NJA life.
 
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