NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[B727FA]

I just wanted to ruffle some feathers on this issue and see what kind of response I got.

SUCCESS!

I did this anonymously for that reason, some of you might think that is cowardly but your comments only confirm that even If I had brought this issue up in a way you would have accepted I would still probably catch hell for it.

Get off the cross, we need the wood for the new hanger. You've been advised, quite nicely, how to address this in a more acceptable way: ProStan or the Union board.

By the way, two more pax legs today. I still haven't talked to him about it yet. A few more days to go yet. Two pax legs tomorrow. I decided to see just how far this goes before I raise the issue.

Why wait? It's NOT going to change if you don't speak up. You're not a victim...stop choosing to be.

 

[fly4funcrj]

Ok, I skipped a lot of this since it's the same stuff. The g200 fleet is making pics fly left seat, sic's fly right seat. I'm willing to be this will become SOP. Who gives a crap. I'm happy just to sit there and collect a paycheck and eat my 4 meals a day

 

[NetjetsFalcon]

Just the fact you're a Gold Seal CFI should entitle you to all the passenger flying.

DORK.

 

[B727FA]

In the end, can someone tell me why exactly it matters?

 

[vballindaytona]

gold seal cfi. ha. there are x air force one pilots and astronauts in the nj family....and you have the balls to claim gold seal cfi? thanks for the laugh.

 

[o2bflyn]

In the end, can someone tell me why exactly it matters?

It shouldn't.

 

[brokeflyer]

In the end, can someone tell me why exactly it matters?

I dont know...ask porter....he's seems to have the issue.

This whole thread should never have happened. So i dont feel a bit sorry for the flak.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

Please could you look back at my previous post (#63) & see if you can help out with any answers.

I'm a little confused as the different practices (& attitudes) seem to suggest there is scope for huge variations in protocol, standards, & CRM - with potential deterioration of FO handling skills..... why not a simple "alternating" policy for flying sectors, regardless of pax or ferry leg (subject to any mandatory parameters, etc)??

 

[gutshotdraw]

Please could you look back at my previous post (#63) & see if you can help out with any answers.

I'm a little confused as the different practices (& attitudes) seem to suggest there is scope for huge variations in protocol, standards, & CRM - with potential deterioration of FO handling skills..... why not a simple "alternating" policy for flying sectors, regardless of pax or ferry leg (subject to any mandatory parameters, etc)??

Mike,

NJI policy per FOM in abbreviated form:

Until the pilot has attended their first recurrent training, the SIC shall fly only from the right seat, at the Captain's discretion, regardless of whether there are passengers on board. Once the SIC has attended his/her first recurrent, the SIC may, at the Captain's discretion, fly empty legs from the left seat.

Experience has shown, in this operation at least, that empty leg flying from the left seat helps prepare the SIC's for upgrade since the Gulfstream's ground handling tendencies (especially on 90 degree FBO ramp parking turns) take a little time to master.

When two PIC qualified pilots fly together, some guys swap legs in the left seat, some guys swap days (my preference).

FWIW, I have had many, many occasions where I offered the pax leg to the SIC from the right seat. Almost to a man, they have said: "Nah. I'll fly the ferry leg if that's okay."

Just one of the many reasons why I'm glad this Porter character won't get anywhere near the Gulfstream fleet in this or the next decade.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

Thanks for the outline, gsd, very useful.

<<<< Once the SIC has attended his/her first recurrent, the SIC may, at the Captain's discretion, fly empty legs from the left seat. >>>>

All in favour of that, as you say, it helps prepare for up-grades. Across in Europe, it would be unusual to up-grade from large cabin & remain on type, so whilst it is useful to get used to fleet-specific handling characteristics, it wouldn't really be of much (up-grade) benefit over here.

<<<< Until the pilot has attended their first recurrent training, the SIC shall fly only from the right seat, at the Captain's discretion, regardless of whether there are passengers on board. >>>>

No such "captain's" limitation for us - it would be deemed detrimental for the captain to just fly the pax legs. Subject to FOM/special category airports, we would normally fly alternating legs, pax or no pax. Sometimes I might swapt the order or give the FO 2 legs in a row (what a mean SOB!!) so that they can operate into a "new" airport for better experience. Very, very occasionally, we have a pax profile that says it should always be a captain's sector - sorry, don't agree with that at all! :angryfire

<<<< When two PIC qualified pilots fly together, some guys swap legs in the left seat, some guys swap days (my preference).>>>>

Swapping by days is very much my preference too, say 3 in a row in one seat, then swap across for the remaining 3 days of the tour. Can't cope with getting the seat just right after each leg!!

<<<< FWIW, I have had many, many occasions where I offered the pax leg to the SIC from the right seat. Almost to a man, they have said: "Nah. I'll fly the ferry leg if that's okay." >>>>

This is something I just can't understand - but in Europe we don't have the seat swap option for captain/FO - if they don't accept a pax leg (even from the RHS), then what on earth are they doing there?? Surely, pax legs are all part of the development/experience/customer service?? Not sure if I agree 100% with what Porter tried to put over, & how he wrote up his experience (damned if he listed it, damned if he didn't??), but perhaps a common policy across all your fleets for who flies what legs (subject to the provisos mentioned above) would encourage FO development & remind those who need it of their responsibilities as captain....??

<<<< They always teach in CRM that the Capt sets the "tone" but, I would rather fly in stereo rather in mono...we both set the tone >>>>

Ain't that the truth!!

 

[buckeyes95]

To each their own, but quite frankly I could care less if I fly all the legs, no legs, pax legs only or ferry legs only. I get paid the same either way. All I care about is that I don't get called to CMH and/or don't have to fill out any safety reports. To me, that is a successful tour.

 

[B727FA]

Until the pilot has attended their first recurrent training, the SIC shall fly only from the right seat, at the Captain's discretion, regardless of whether there are passengers on board. Once the SIC has attended his/her first recurrent, the SIC may, at the Captain's discretion, fly empty legs from the left seat.

Gutshotdraw, when I see "their first recurrent" do you mean a 6 month ride or their 12 month recurrent at NJI?

Thanks!

 

[gutshotdraw]

B,

First recurrent after six months on the equipment.

Mike,

Even though efficiency has improved, we still fly a fair number of empty legs. This tour was 50-50. Most of the SIC's decline flying from the right seat in favor of ferry legs from the left because flying a Gulfstream from the right seat is a PAIN IN THE ARSE. Given the tiller steering only being on the left, position of the gear handle and other switches, and the "hands on the power lever dance" required by our FOM (SIC advances the levers, then the Captain taps the hands off and takes the PL's until V-1 in case of an abort, in which case it's the Captain's airplane. Then on landing the Captain taps the SIC off the PL's leaving the runway), blah, blah, blah. It's just easier to fly from the left seat whenever possible.

The SIC's get plenty of legs to work on aircraft handling and every passenger leg develops BOTH pilot's customer service skills. I sometimes have the SIC greet the client even when I'm flying the leg so I can be the baggage b!t)h and they can schmooze the folks. Basically, whatever gets the job done safely, efficiently and within the terms of our SOP's.

 

[Willy21]

All I want is standardization. When it comes to flying, left seat or right seat, passenger legs or ferry legs it does not matter to me. It would be nice to know as a SIC what you are going to get instead of having a different set of rules for every PIC I fly with. Yes I know that there will be little things that are up to a PIC's discretion, but please don't rewrite the whole FOM to fit your style.

 

[rettofly]

What is the big deal about which seat you fly in? I know the arguement is trading legs, but I think some people are getting torques around because they dont get to fly left seat.

Don't know about any of you guys, but I'm perfectly capable of screwing up from either seat. Only difference is which side of my face sweats when something comes unglued.

 

[DO-82 driver]

All I want is standardization. Yes I know that there will be little things that are up to a PIC's discretion, but please don't rewrite the whole FOM to fit your style.

Well, I'm glad you recognize the need for standardization. As a Captain I feel the same need. I wish the F/O's would be standardize to the point where they can properly prep a cabin and all the stock on an aircraft.

This is an issue that falls squarely in the lap of the Company.

You, as an F/O, want to know what every Captain is going to do and I, as a Captain, want to know if an F/O is going to preform their duties properly.

Here's the deal as I see it..... As long as an F/O can prove they can do their job, I will afford them duties adherent to their position.

When all is said and done.....Its my responsibilty and I will deligate those responsibilities accordingly. If you don't like it......Oh well. Gear up.... flaps up....coffee, paper ,ice.

I've only had to pull this crap twice in my 10 years of being at NJA. But I have no problem in speaking my mind as any of the F/O's (or junior Captain) I have flown with will testify to. The owner comes first....no IF,ANDS, or BUT!!!!!!!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I actually enjoyed this thread... Hey, it is good crashpad entertainment to see how the "other half" lives!

Someone educate this poor piece of scooter trash: What is with all of the seat switching and leg swapping drama? Is there a lack of confidence in the SIC's ability to safely and comfortably land an airplane in which he holds a type rating (passengers or not)? Is it simply that the passengers are more confident if the captain flies the airplane? Why do people care which side of the airplane they sit on? What difference does it make if the paycheck doesn't change?

Seriously! I am not trying to add to the arguement at all, I am just really curious about the cultural differences between airline flying and the frax world. I'm not flamebaiting in the least. I am just curious, so someone indulge me.

The funny thing is, in my flightdeck if the proverbial excrement impacts the air accelerating device, one of the first things I do is hand the physical flying over to the FO. That allows me to step back, look at the big picture and do all of that captain stuff we are supposed to do. From an outside observer's prospective it seems that the culture at NJA is radically different.

For the record: I have been trying to get on at NJA forever. 10,000 hours, 5 years as a 121 captain and no love. If I am ever successful, I personally would be happy to sling gear and talk plenty of legs for the QOL you guys and gals enjoy. I know for a fact that I am not alone in that opinion.

 

[Willy21]

I agree with the stock in the back. I am sick and tired of going out to an airplane on day one to find that the cokes, snacks and jepps are out of date. I am also amazed that there are people that just throw stuff in the snack drawer or liquor cabinet. If you talk to the pics that I fly with they will all tell you that I take at least 30 minutes the first time I am at a locker, take every stock item out to check the date, vacuum the drawers out and restock the airplane.

So if we ever get to fly together you can count on the back being in good shape.

 

[Diesel]

Even though efficiency has improved, we still fly a fair number of empty legs. This tour was 50-50. Most of the SIC's decline flying from the right seat in favor of ferry legs from the left because flying a Gulfstream from the right seat is a PAIN IN THE ARSE. Given the tiller steering only being on the left, position of the gear handle and other switches, and the "hands on the power lever dance" required by our FOM (SIC advances the levers, then the Captain taps the hands off and takes the PL's until V-1 in case of an abort, in which case it's the Captain's airplane. Then on landing the Captain taps the SIC off the PL's leaving the runway), blah, blah, blah. It's just easier to fly from the left seat whenever possible.

I haven't flown a leg from the left seat yet. I'm trying to spend my entire tour in the right seat of the GIV since I'm seatlocked I'm not moving.

Wolfy tried to get me to swap but its not happening.

As far as the rest of the duties I spent 7 years greeting pax and chatting them up. Now I just want to throw bags, check the oil, and do the walkaround in the rain.

 

[Willy21]

Seriously! I am not trying to add to the arguement at all, I am just really curious about the cultural differences between airline flying and the frax world. I'm not flamebaiting in the least. I am just curious, so someone indulge me.

In my opinion this has been the culture at NetJets all along. The reason this is coming out now is we have two almost three year SIC's on property that are looking at two to three more years of putting up with the 2%ers.

There are also a fair amount of people hired in the last three years that had zero corporate time before NetJets. They are having a hard time learning that we do more than fly. I see this every now and then by the condition an aircraft is left to the next crew in. (stock, jepps, interior cleaning...)

DO-82 has a valid argument. If a SIC wants to get on a captian for not being standardized then he must be standard himself.