Net jets scab pilot negotiator

[realityman]

Yes I do understand better, thanks. But my question remains. Even with understanding why union strikers disagree with scabs, I don't understand the hatred, and deplore the awful behavior, the intimidation and harassment. And don't understand why every decent person does not come out and say this. Even Gutshotdraw, who is one of my favorite people at NJA, doesn't seem to deplore the harassment, merely stating that it is to be expected.

Did you read the big long post I made prior to the one you quoted?

I thought I laid it out fairly well.

Okay, imagine that you have to dig a large, deep hole. It's you and a bunch of your buddies out there with nothing but shovels and your own muscle power to get the job done in the scorching summer sun. The job should only take a week. But while you're digging, a smaller group of people show up and begin throwing dirt back in the hole.

Now it takes you an extra three days. Yeah, the job got done. But what will your opinion be of the people up top who were working to slow you down, whether that was their final goal or not? You going to buy them a beer and say "Well, let's let bygones be bygones"? And will you feel even more kindly to them when you find out that they will enjoy the benefits of the hole you dug (whatever those benefits are) even though they did their best to slow, or stop, your progress? Will you feel forgiving to them because one or two of them did what they did because they have sick family members? Even if you and some of your buddies who were trying to dig the hole also have sick family members? What excuses will you accept?

Anyway, please reread my first post. If you are still coming away from it asking "Why the hate and shoddy treatment?" then you're intentionally missing the reason(s).

 

[Semore Butts]

Reality man......Nailed it!!

I doubt you will change his mind.

But at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that you are doing more towards the welfare of G4's family than he is.

1 yes vote here to strike, no Global FO bid from me, and no Phenom CPT.

Thank all of you guys for trying.
Semore

(Saving every dime I can in preparation)

 

[imacdog]

1 yes vote here to strike, no Global FO bid from me, and no Phenom CPT.

So what's the story on having to mention this?

 

[brokeflyer]

Has anyone written the "Confessions of a Company Buster" yet?

yes, "management 101"

 

[gutshotdraw]

Did you read the big long post I made prior to the one you quoted?

I thought I laid it out fairly well.

Okay, imagine that you have to dig a large, deep hole. It's you and a bunch of your buddies out there with nothing but shovels and your own muscle power to get the job done in the scorching summer sun. The job should only take a week. But while you're digging, a smaller group of people show up and begin throwing dirt back in the hole.

Now it takes you an extra three days. Yeah, the job got done. But what will your opinion be of the people up top who were working to slow you down, whether that was their final goal or not? You going to buy them a beer and say "Well, let's let bygones be bygones"? And will you feel even more kindly to them when you find out that they will enjoy the benefits of the hole you dug (whatever those benefits are) even though they did their best to slow, or stop, your progress? Will you feel forgiving to them because one or two of them did what they did because they have sick family members? Even if you and some of your buddies who were trying to dig the hole also have sick family members? What excuses will you accept?

Anyway, please reread my first post. If you are still coming away from it asking "Why the hate and shoddy treatment?" then you're intentionally missing the reason(s).

That's a great analogy. I would only add that G4 doesn't have to help dig the hole if he disagrees with digging it (ie: don't walk a picket line, etc.). But don't shovel dirt in top of the others (ie: cross a picket line).

 

[G4dude]

Did you read the big long post I made prior to the one you quoted?

I thought I laid it out fairly well.

Okay, imagine that you have to dig a large, deep hole. It's you and a bunch of your buddies out there with nothing but shovels and your own muscle power to get the job done in the scorching summer sun. The job should only take a week. But while you're digging, a smaller group of people show up and begin throwing dirt back in the hole.

Now it takes you an extra three days. Yeah, the job got done. But what will your opinion be of the people up top who were working to slow you down, whether that was their final goal or not? You going to buy them a beer and say "Well, let's let bygones be bygones"? And will you feel even more kindly to them when you find out that they will enjoy the benefits of the hole you dug (whatever those benefits are) even though they did their best to slow, or stop, your progress? Will you feel forgiving to them because one or two of them did what they did because they have sick family members? Even if you and some of your buddies who were trying to dig the hole also have sick family members? What excuses will you accept?

Anyway, please reread my first post. If you are still coming away from it asking "Why the hate and shoddy treatment?" then you're intentionally missing the reason(s).

I do have a better understanding, but the behavior towards scabs still seems unfair in the extreme, and I think it is shameful. If I scab, it will be because I disagree with the strategy of striking, not "turning my back on my colleagues." When you strike with my disapproval, I don't consider that action "turning your back" on me, and I would not mistreat you for striking. Even though I would consider your strike an action which would endanger my employer's existence, which would harm my family. And I would still not put your name on a lifelong list for harassment. I am amazed and disgusted that nobody on this board is condemning the union mistreatment of scabs. Nobody here feels queasy about it, and y'all should be ashamed.

 

[x402]

G4
If negotiations go south and a strike vote is called, is there a percentage that would sway your position? 51%, 75%, 90%? As you know the strike vote only authorizes a strike.
Will you support the FA's if their talks continue to deteriorate?

 

[Semore Butts]

Hey Imac.

1 yes vote here to strike, no Global FO bid from me, and no Phenom CPT.
So what's the story on having to mention this?


It just means I won't impede any FO from getting a raise by bidding those positions.

 

[VGerect]

It just means I won't impede any FO from getting a raise by bidding those positions.

You Sir are a class act. I just hope that there are more like you.

 

[realityman]

I do have a better understanding, but the behavior towards scabs still seems unfair in the extreme, and I think it is shameful. If I scab, it will be because I disagree with the strategy of striking, not "turning my back on my colleagues." When you strike with my disapproval, I don't consider that action "turning your back" on me, and I would not mistreat you for striking. Even though I would consider your strike an action which would endanger my employer's existence, which would harm my family. And I would still not put your name on a lifelong list for harassment. I am amazed and disgusted that nobody on this board is condemning the union mistreatment of scabs. Nobody here feels queasy about it, and y'all should be ashamed.

Okay, I don't think you get it.

If you dont think a strike is the right thing to do, that's disagreeing with me.

If you cross the picket line, you have now started ACTIVELY working against me.

And the irony of doing that is we are working to provide better compensation for YOU and your family.

I get it, you don't like unions and wish you weren't in one. That's fine.
But, here you are. You ARE in a union.
The problem is, you're still thinking and acting like you work at a place without a union. Sorry my friend, but unless/until you leave NJA, those days are gone.

If the union votes to strike, and it actually comes to a strike, there is no "Well I don't agree so I'm going to cross the picket line.".
I get it, that sucks for you. But basically, too bad. Crossing a picket line isn't just "Doing what I have to for me and my family.". It's actively working AGAINST everyone else who is on strike doing what they feel is best for their families, and ironically, YOURS TOO.

Like I said, if the majority succeeds, you succeed. Why is that hard to understand? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of that success?

And more importantly, please answer my question: If we were to strike and be successful at getting a great new CBA, will you accept the new compensation, or return it to the company? How will you feel entitled to something you actively worked against? I'll bet my next year's pay that if we struck and got a great new contract you'll be shouting "Hooray union! Union all the way!", all while having been a scab.

Sorry, if you don't think that's worthy of lifelong derision, I can't imagine what would. Accepting the benefits of everyone else's hard work and sacrifice (I assure you there would be plenty of strikers participating who wouldn't agree with the strike, but understand the power and NECESSITY of solidarity) while you selfishly took advantage of the situation is pretty scummy.

And while you say you would never treat a striker like strikers treat scabs, I have a news flash for you buddy, crossing a picket line IS treating the strikers VERY shoddily. You're crapping all over what they're trying to accomplish. While I'm trying to support a growing family AND taking care if my own sick relative but still being part of the union, you cross the picket line and then tell me you aren't treating me badly in any way? Hoo boy!!

But, it won't come to an actual strike. You have very little to worry about.

I'm finished explaining. Understand the reasons or not, if you decide to be a scab at least you understand the consequences, whether you agree with them or not. Still, I look forward to hearing your answers to the questions i posed here.

 

[G4dude]

G4
If negotiations go south and a strike vote is called, is there a percentage that would sway your position? 51%, 75%, 90%? As you know the strike vote only authorizes a strike.
Will you support the FA's if their talks continue to deteriorate?

I don't know what I would do. The percentage wouldn't affect me, as I don't believe in Groupthink. My wife's medical bills are so high, I can't see how I could honor a picket line anyway. I would probably leave the company and do something else with my life. I know if I scabbed I would be pretty miserable at NJA. In other words, the union types who think it is all right to mistreat a scab would win. I hope the FAs get a fair deal, but that is between them and NJA.

 

[G4dude]

Okay, I don't think you get it.

If you dont think a strike is the right thing to do, that's disagreeing with me.

If you cross the picket line, you have now started ACTIVELY working against me.

And the irony of doing that is we are working to provide better compensation for YOU and your family.

I get it, you don't like unions and wish you weren't in one. That's fine.
But, here you are. You ARE in a union.
The problem is, you're still thinking and acting like you work at a place without a union. Sorry my friend, but unless/until you leave NJA, those days are gone.

If the union votes to strike, and it actually comes to a strike, there is no "Well I don't agree so I'm going to cross the picket line.".
I get it, that sucks for you. But basically, too bad. Crossing a picket line isn't just "Doing what I have to for me and my family.". It's actively working AGAINST everyone else who is on strike doing what they feel is best for their families, and ironically, YOURS TOO.

Like I said, if the majority succeeds, you succeed. Why is that hard to understand? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of that success?

And more importantly, please answer my question: If we were to strike and be successful at getting a great new CBA, will you accept the new compensation, or return it to the company? How will you feel entitled to something you actively worked against? I'll bet my next year's pay that if we struck and got a great new contract you'll be shouting "Hooray union! Union all the way!", all while having been a scab.

Sorry, if you don't think that's worthy of lifelong derision, I can't imagine what would. Accepting the benefits of everyone else's hard work and sacrifice (I assure you there would be plenty of strikers participating who wouldn't agree with the strike, but understand the power and NECESSITY of solidarity) while you selfishly took advantage of the situation is pretty scummy.

And while you say you would never treat a striker like strikers treat scabs, I have a news flash for you buddy, crossing a picket line IS treating the strikers VERY shoddily. You're crapping all over what they're trying to accomplish. While I'm trying to support a growing family AND taking care if my own sick relative but still being part of the union, you cross the picket line and then tell me you aren't treating me badly in any way? Hoo boy!!

But, it won't come to an actual strike. You have very little to worry about.

I'm finished explaining. Understand the reasons or not, if you decide to be a scab at least you understand the consequences, whether you agree with them or not. Still, I look forward to hearing your answers to the questions i posed here.

I have always understood the consequences. I was just hoping somebody would question the morality and decency of them. Guess not.

 

[G4dude]

Okay, I don't think you get it.

If you dont think a strike is the right thing to do, that's disagreeing with me.

If you cross the picket line, you have now started ACTIVELY working against me.

And the irony of doing that is we are working to provide better compensation for YOU and your family.

I get it, you don't like unions and wish you weren't in one. That's fine.
But, here you are. You ARE in a union.
The problem is, you're still thinking and acting like you work at a place without a union. Sorry my friend, but unless/until you leave NJA, those days are gone.

If the union votes to strike, and it actually comes to a strike, there is no "Well I don't agree so I'm going to cross the picket line.".
I get it, that sucks for you. But basically, too bad. Crossing a picket line isn't just "Doing what I have to for me and my family.". It's actively working AGAINST everyone else who is on strike doing what they feel is best for their families, and ironically, YOURS TOO.

Like I said, if the majority succeeds, you succeed. Why is that hard to understand? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of that success?

And more importantly, please answer my question: If we were to strike and be successful at getting a great new CBA, will you accept the new compensation, or return it to the company? How will you feel entitled to something you actively worked against? I'll bet my next year's pay that if we struck and got a great new contract you'll be shouting "Hooray union! Union all the way!", all while having been a scab.

Sorry, if you don't think that's worthy of lifelong derision, I can't imagine what would. Accepting the benefits of everyone else's hard work and sacrifice (I assure you there would be plenty of strikers participating who wouldn't agree with the strike, but understand the power and NECESSITY of solidarity) while you selfishly took advantage of the situation is pretty scummy.

And while you say you would never treat a striker like strikers treat scabs, I have a news flash for you buddy, crossing a picket line IS treating the strikers VERY shoddily. You're crapping all over what they're trying to accomplish. While I'm trying to support a growing family AND taking care if my own sick relative but still being part of the union, you cross the picket line and then tell me you aren't treating me badly in any way? Hoo boy!!

But, it won't come to an actual strike. You have very little to worry about.

I'm finished explaining. Understand the reasons or not, if you decide to be a scab at least you understand the consequences, whether you agree with them or not. Still, I look forward to hearing your answers to the questions i posed here.

Oops, I forgot to answer your question about accepting a union negotiated compensation package. I work for the company, and will accept what they offer me. If they don't offer me enough, I will go elsewhere. I don't care about the union or no union, I will accept what NJA pays or go elsewhere. I am aware that the union will get me a better deal than if there was no union. I am also aware the union deal will make it harder for the company to compete and grow. All this is out of my hands, I just fly for a living. I get paid, I cash the check. I was forced to join the union, so it is a fact of life, just like Hansell and Noe. People will think my acceptance of a union negotiated paycheck is hypocritical, but I just fly for a living. I used to negotiate my pay, now the unwelcome union does it for me by force. It is a fait accompli.

 

[glasspilot]

It'd be interesting to see what experiences G4 has had to make him feel the way he does and contrast that to some of the others in here. People are a result of their environment after all. I doubt G4 threatens to cross because of his genetic makeup or the way he was built. It must be someone early on in his career that planted the seed and shaped the thought process.

Like I said, interesting...

Sorry, I'll butt out now. Just making an observation.

 

[Semore Butts]

How long have you been at Netjets G4?

How old are you?

Like others, I'm curious about you?

 

[pilotyip]

It'd be interesting to see what experiences G4 has had to make him feel the way he does and contrast that to some of the others in here. People are a result of their environment after all. I doubt G4 threatens to cross because of his genetic makeup or the way he was built. It must be someone early on in his career that planted the seed and shaped the thought process.

Like I said, interesting...

Sorry, I'll butt out now. Just making an observation.

Looks like G4 things he has a pretty good deal, 14K hours he has been around a while, wife with medical bills probably means older. I believe he has a tangible fear the the "company Busters" will screw up his pretty good deal. I understand. Standing by for incoming flax for having a non pro union thought.

 

[Cavpilot]

I don't know what I would do. The percentage wouldn't affect me, as I don't believe in Groupthink. My wife's medical bills are so high, I can't see how I could honor a picket line anyway. I would probably leave the company and do something else with my life. I know if I scabbed I would be pretty miserable at NJA. In other words, the union types who think it is all right to mistreat a scab would win. I hope the FAs get a fair deal, but that is between them and NJA.

There is no way on God's green earth that we will ever go on strike. But that's another discussion entirely. Now to your point...

COBRA. When you are on strike, you still have your medical insurance available to you through COBRA. I know this because I lived it.

 

[Cavpilot]

Looks like G4 things he has a pretty good deal, 14K hours he has been around a while, wife with medical bills probably means older. I believe he has a tangible fear the the "company Busters" will screw up his pretty good deal. I understand. Standing by for incoming flax for having a non pro union thought.

Dude, go away. You don't know dick about our company or union so stop acting like you do.

 

[Praetorian]

I get it. My point was, and I will try to iterate it again, is that those of us would not strike don't keep a list of strikers and attempt to harass them for the rest of their careers.

Just as, after the battle is over, deserters don't keep lists of those who stood and fought.

When you scab you give up your honor. I suspect that for a scab, over time the harassment and open hostility fades. But everyone will always remember that he/she is someone that sold their honor and integrity at a time when most others, although equally scared, stood strong together.

 

[pilotyip]

Dude, go away. You don't know dick about our company or union so stop acting like you do.

public site, public comment, answering a question put fourth in public. But as I said in my post, since it was not 100% pro-union, therefore it has to be attacked. Standard union activist play book.