Net jets scab pilot negotiator

[pilotyip]

Again, we're being a bit melodramatic aren't we?

Not if you are a "company buster", remember on FI if you are not 100% pro-union you are 100% anti-union. There is no middle ground which you have approached in a reasonable manner like G4. But that is not allowed to stand, you have just become everything that is wrong with this industry. If you did not work for a NJ, a major airline, or a Fortune 500 Flight Department, well you would be demonstrating your mediocrity.

Conversations that should be taking place on a company union Website, are being discussed in public and public comment has to be expected.

 

[gret]

Well...I'm no union buster (what do they do anyway?), instead

I am just a poor boy
Though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocket full of mumbles such are promises
All lies and jests
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest​

If you want to strike...have at it if the cause is justified...and remember the Twinkie Tango.

I was kinda cheering on Sergio today until he knocked 2 in the water on #17.

 

[Pervis]

Some of you guys are either joking or entirely clueless how labor relations work for RLA employees. To think we can simply decide to strike is ludicrous. Most importantly, if anyone here believes our super duper pro-labor Demo gubment will allow a strike against one of their biggest contributers, BKS, you should really get out more.

When we started section 6 in 2000, even management were suggesting kick arse pay and a super contract, until we came to the money. Sales were so high that we tripped over dollars to save dimes and cared not for the cost of operations, yet a raise for the pilots would break the company. Well guess what? In spite of significant raises in '05 and '07, we're still here, even after the recession.

Here we are after the biggest financial crisis in our life times and we are advertising record profits on ops alone, reduction of nearly two billion in debt over a very few years, and the anti union types still claim our efforts will destroy the company? Hardly. We want a share of the cash we bring in through a direct interface with our customers the rest of the comany, including JH and company, never experience. Who really makes the wheels turn in this business?

If any one of the crew were to suffer even minor medical issues resulting in non-flying status, we could still do their job-in most cases better-due to our intimate relationship with the business and its clientelle. Could they do ours? Possibly, after years of training and experience we achieved through work far more intense and time consuming than an appointment to daddy's law firm.

To believe any doom and gloom from management is ridiculous based upon current and future outlook. Look at those "poor" execs in companies that do fail. Guys like Boisture, Scheeringa, Lorenzo, etc go onto their next conquest after destroying their last and still rake in millions and depart all the while blaming the working stiff. And some continue to believe this horse crap? A message for management hacks. We're a bit more experienced and educated than the 3rd grade gradiates from the Bayou (no offense intended to our Southern bretheren).

 

[APFPilot]

Gret,

Not a correct analogy. We aren't 'recruiting'. Everyone is already in the union. Now I do realize that the former NJI folks had no choice.
But didn't they? The union is not forcing anyone to remain employed at NJA. Hate unions, and especially THIS union? No problem, quit and take another job that's non-union where the employer can screw with you wages and work rules all day, every day.
I always enjoyed B19's posts where he would argue that if you didn't like the work conditions at a non-union shop you should just quit and go somewhere else. Well, I would argue the same applies to folks working at union shops who don't like it.

If you choose to stay, then whether you like it or not, you are accepting the union way of doing things. I'm pretty sure everyone currently here knows what it's all about. If you then decide you're going to actively work against the union's goals (which is what scabbing is) then you are also accepting the consequences of doing that. Coming on message boards and whining that you don't understand why union folks are such big meanies to scabbers is like complaining you don't understand why your best buddy hates you after you've slept with his wife.

By the way, the financial reports at NJA are quite impressive! Please explain why you think now isn't the time to ask for the moon. Additionally, these negotiations will take some time. Years really. When asking for more, I would agree that timing is everything. But if the trends are looking up, you need to start the process to end up hitting it at the best point. It's a bit of a guess, but well, a lot of things are. If we wait until we are actually at the top of curve, by the time we get to the meat and potatoes of negotiations we may be into a downturn, which would not help our case one bit.

As for the rest of your post, it's irrelevant. Who cares what others make and whether they'd be happy to be where we are now. Are you suggesting that we should all compare ourselves to the lowest paid people in America, and if we're above them just shut up and be happy? Great. We can all make minimum wage and not complain because that's what others do. I suppose if I tell my friends and family what my compensation package is compared to the average janitor and mention we are trying for more, they might be laughing their butts off. But if I tell them my compensation package compared to the other top-of-the-line professional compensation packages in this industry (FedEx, Delta, United, heck, even USAirways) they would probably wish me luck and wonder why I make so much less.

I suppose it's all perspective. I can appreciate yours, but can't agree with it.

You know, it still amazes me that pilots don't support each other 100% when another group of pilots are trying to improve things. What is it to you or Yip if we're trying for a much improved compensation package? If we succeed, isn't that good for everyone across the industry? Everyone hates the race to the bottom we've seen so often in this industry, and even get derisive about the pilots who take concessionary contracts, or go to work for ratbag operators. But so many of those same folks also appear to hate those who are trying to race to the top. Why isn't every single person on Flightinfo (who isn't a management troll) cheering us on and wishing us the best? I remember so many telling us that our '05 contract would bankrupt the company. And even after we went on to record profits AFTER the contract was signed, no one said 'nice job'. And ironically, we saw a lot of other operators give raises to their pilots 'coincidentally' right after our contract was signed. Heck, Citationshares' new pay scales almost exactly mirrored our pay scales. Oh yeah, coincidence. I wonder how many union haters at other operators who got raises right after us rushed to give that money back to their employer.

How about everyone just say "Good luck guys.". If you work at NJA, our success will directly benefit you. If you don't work here, our success is still likely to benefit you in some way.

And if we fail or put the company out of business, THEN come in with all the "greedy idiots" and "I knew that was going to happen" and "stupid union" comments.

How far would you carry that 100%. If you were booked a ticket on a 121 carrier that was striking but your flight home to family was operated by scabs would you still take it? Does it only apply to pilot groups? Would you cross the FA's picket line? What if the line guys were striking? Would you fly pax that had to book with NJA if another carrier was striking?

 

[Pervis]

How far would you carry that 100%. If you were booked a ticket on a 121 carrier that was striking but your flight home to family was operated by scabs would you still take it? Does it only apply to pilot groups? Would you cross the FA's picket line? What if the line guys were striking? Would you fly pax that had to book with NJA if another carrier was striking?

Simple answer-no. It's defined in our CBA.

 

[realityman]

How far would you carry that 100%. If you were booked a ticket on a 121 carrier that was striking but your flight home to family was operated by scabs would you still take it? Does it only apply to pilot groups? Would you cross the FA's picket line? What if the line guys were striking? Would you fly pax that had to book with NJA if another carrier was striking?

Nope.

Pervis is correct. We can not be required to cross ANY unionized picket. I suppose some might do it anyway (probably the same ones who would cross our own picket if it came to that, which, by the way, it won't). But most of us would not.

As to the comment about the pax, we have no way to know where they are coming from. However, if they are flying on us, they are either owners or cardholders, which would make them our own clients. Flight Options management (as an example) could not simply book their clients on our planes if their own pilots went on strike.

But your comments and questions are irrelevant to the points I was making about supporting pilots who are trying for better. I'm not talking about crossing picket lines or flying someone else's pax or whatever.

I'm simply talking about all the other pilots just saying "Good luck! Hope you succeed!". I'll never understand why anyone else would come on here (or anywhere) and start in with "You guys are greedy", "You're gonna kill your company", "You're out of line for asking for more", "Other people in this country make less, you should just be happy with what you have". Here's a question or two for everybody here that doesn't currently work for NJA: If we, here at NJA, are successful in securing a much better contract for ourselves, what is the harm to you? Can you see no possible way it might actually benefit you as well (I can think of several off the top of my head)? Why not just wish us luck? What is your thought process behind criticizing our attempt?

Unless you're a management troll, I would think every single pilot here would be cheering for us.

Like I said, If we fail or kill the company there'll be plenty of time for all the negative comments.

 

[APFPilot]

Awesome really glad to hear that. When I was in college I was a line guy at an airport that was very popular with NJA (I'm sure you can guess where) management was hammering us and we threatened union. Scared them enough to quit messing with us. We were wondering if our line would get crossed if it came to it. Just for the record I don't fly for a living (no not management) and while I am generally not a fan of unions pilot work groups are one of the exceptions.

Edit: also like others have said a vote yes goes a long way to avoiding a strike.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Conversations that should be taking place on a company union Website...

There's no room for conversations on our union website. Only personal vendettas, balkanized internecine warfare, union dogma, and general poo-flinging.

I gave up on it long ago.

FlightInfo is a collegial coffee klatch by comparison.

Jussssss sayin'

 

[pilotyip]

Simple answer-no. It's defined in our CBA.

What about flying a CAL where the Scabs won? or we don't count that because because they were allowed back in the union?

 

[realityman]

What about flying a CAL where the Scabs won? or we don't count that because because they were allowed back in the union?

First of all, scabs don't win. They aren't fighting for anything. Just crossing their union's picket line. The only 'winners' would either be the union or the company.

As for the flying, regardless of who wins, when the strike is over, it's over. If there's no picket line, we have to proceed. And really Yip, how the heck would we in the back have any idea whether it was a scab flying or not? But it doesn't matter because our CBA only allows us to the right to refuse to cross a picket line. Like I said, when the strike is over, no more picket line, therefore regardless of who won we must proceed.

Once again, I still wonder why folks like you don't just wish us luck. If we succeed it'll only be good for the industry. It sure doesn't hurt you in any way. If we fail, it still doesn't hurt you. And really, it'll never come to a strike. Nobody is going to kill Netjets.

I understand you're very anti-union. No problem with that. My question isn't about anyone else's attitude about scabs or union treatment of them. My question is simply why don't folks support everyone, union or not, who are trying to bring the bar up for fellow pilots. if you're happy where you're at, that's great! But isn't it nice to know that you, or your fellow co-workers, could have even more options in the future to choose to go to a company you enjoy flying at AND make top-of-the-line compensation? If you don't ever want to come here that's great. But why wouldn't you just say "Good luck guys. Nice to see some folks aren't joining the race to the bottom."

 

[Pervis]

What about flying a CAL where the Scabs won? or we don't count that because because they were allowed back in the union?

No choice. There is currently no active picket lines drawn. We can't avoid the past, nor what a different union/pilot group chose.

 

[gret]

You keep asking why more people don?t support you or wish you well...simple fact is that not all believe in what a union is trying to accomplish. You say that it can only be good?well that isn?t true. There are some very bad things that can happen and it isn?t a game.

As mentioned, if it is a really justifiable issue, you won?t have to ask for support?everyone will be with you. Gaining a few more immaterial $?s or benefits because you want it, versus deserving it, simply doesn?t sit well with a lot of people?our DNA is one of fairness, not being piggish.

Also, the vitriolic comments made by some hardcore union supporters, not you, doesn't help your cause. Who wants to join up with a bunch of mentally and socially challenged rednecks and give them carte blanche with their careers. Screaming constantly about mgmt being a ?bunch of thieves?, ?we need to impose our will?, ?out the potential scab?, and one of my favorites..."union buster"...serves little purpose and is a real turnoff to most well balanced people?the very ones that you are asking for support.

 

[imacdog]

Gret, you understand there really is such thing as a professional union buster?

 

[Praetorian]

Gret, you understand there really is such thing as a professional union buster?

Oh he understands because he is one. He's just using the tried and true method of throwing out red herrings. Look over there!

So lets put this to rest...

Gret,

You've been on here for a while posing as a pilot. So I'll bite. Who do you work for? What equipment do you fly?

 

[gret]

Gret, you understand there really is such thing as a professional union buster?

Yes sir...I do...find it interesting that anybody with contrary views gets that tag.

But then again, for some people-

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away​

 

[gret]

Oh he understands because he is one. He's just using the tried and true method of throwing out red herrings. Look over there!

So lets put this to rest...

Gret,

You've been on here for a while posing as a pilot. So I'll bite. Who do you work for? What equipment do you fly?

Silly rabbit...the Federation on NCC1701E

 

[Praetorian]

Well, there you have it folks.

I'd like to formally introduce ^^ the latest version Hbogart, B19 et al. to you all. Mr. Spock here is just the latest iteration.

As the NJ folks enter collective bargaining (and in a little over a year FO), I expect him to be busy on here. Remember his bag of tricks. FUD, misdirection and scapegoating.

 

[realityman]

You keep asking why more people don?t support you or wish you well...simple fact is that not all believe in what a union is trying to accomplish. You say that it can only be good?well that isn?t true. There are some very bad things that can happen and it isn?t a game.

As mentioned, if it is a really justifiable issue, you won?t have to ask for support?everyone will be with you. Gaining a few more immaterial $?s or benefits because you want it, versus deserving it, simply doesn?t sit well with a lot of people?our DNA is one of fairness, not being piggish.

Also, the vitriolic comments made by some hardcore union supporters, not you, doesn't help your cause. Who wants to join up with a bunch of mentally and socially challenged rednecks and give them carte blanche with their careers. Screaming constantly about mgmt being a ?bunch of thieves?, ?we need to impose our will?, ?out the potential scab?, and one of my favorites..."union buster"...serves little purpose and is a real turnoff to most well balanced people?the very ones that you are asking for support.

Gret,

I'm not going to go back and forth with you about this forever. At least you answered my questions.

I would address the want it vs deserve it comparison you brought up. I think you may be believing in some utopian world where everyone gets what they deserve if they just work hard enough. Sorry, most places don't work like that. I have learned that you get what you negotiate. It's that simple. I've worked for both union and nonunion shops. I most definitely worked harder, and poured more of myself and my life into the nonunion shop than the union shop. I have nothing against hard work. I STILL work very hard at this union shop. The difference was, at the nonunion shop I got to witness pilots who didn't work as hard, but who did a lot of management a**-kissing get the better spots and higher pay. The ones who would NEVER say they were too tired to fly. The ones who somehow only had write-ups on the planes at our home base. I flew with a guy who NEVER went missed approach, even when at minimums I was screaming to go around because we could barely see the nose of the plane let alone approach lights. When I brought these issues up with management, do you know what I was told? "We have a stack of resumes 10 feet high for pilots. Is there anything else, or would you like to go back to work now."

Unfrtunately, one of the downsides of unionism is that the slackers will receive the same as all the others who work very hard. Ah well. I prefer that system over the other way.

But back to compensation. What does it matter what YOU think we should make? We're trying to raise the bar. This can only be good for all pilots in the industry. Please explain to me how you would be harmed whether we succeed or fail? Keeping in mind that for all the extreme rhetoric you may hear, a strike will never happen. You say bad things can happen and it's not a game. I agree it's not a game, but my remarks are in regards to all the pilots who will be observing our fight, including you. By wishing us good luck, what bad things can happen to you, and the other observers, whether we succeed or fail? I'm always willing to listen and learn.

And even if you think we're being 'piggish' (I don't think anyone here has even mentioned what we're looking to get, so how do you know we're being unreasonable?), why not just remain silent rather than tell us we will/should fail? Seems pretty 'piggish' to wish a group of people ill who are trying to better things for themselves, and indirectly, many others in the industry. Do you cheer on all the pilots who take concessionary contracts? "Nice job guys! Way to show you're not greedy. Heck, that's probably all you deserve anyway. And for those of us who feel guilty about making a good living at what we do, we now have another choice of crappy job to go to if we want. Way to go!".

Okay, I'm done. Very sorry you can't even bring yourself to say a simple "Good luck." to folks who are trying to reverse the trend we've seen in this industry for so long. Union or nonunion, doesn't matter. Still hard to believe pilots can't express good thoughts to those trying for better.

 

[gret]

Good luck...nobody is wishing anybody ill will.

You originally asked for support and that is different. If the issue is righteous, everyone will support it...if not...apathy will reign which is the way it should be.

 

[pilotyip]

Oh he understands because he is one. He's just using the tried and true method of throwing out red herrings. Look over there!

So lets put this to rest...

Gret,

You've been on here for a while posing as a pilot. So I'll bite. Who do you work for? What equipment do you fly?

I am going to bet he is a NJ guy who is happy with his job and like G4 sees more downside from messing with a good thing than upside by being confrontational. Again only a guess. But then again this is FI so we don't have to deal in reality.