Net jets scab pilot negotiator

[gret]

I'm sure this will be popular...

The commentary about belonging to the union and walking the picket line sounds a lot like a inner city gang recruiting members. Join up or else...

If a man didn't want a union in the first place, how is it "stabbing your buddy in the back" when you don't conform. If your actions and beliefs are flawed in one's opinion, why would they want to join in and perpetuate the train wreck further? Some say they will get the benefits of your efforts, but they would look at it that they get the downside.

Real employee rights issues are one thing and would most likely gain 100% support. Work stoppages to simply gain further benefits/higher salaries is another. It's not like anyone is starving or being denied benefits that many others would love to have. Now is not a good time to be greedy...times will get better then ask for the moon.

Pay me or else (extortion) doesn't sit well with most Americans. A good gut check is to ask one's spouse and/or friends what they think about your abusive employer...after the spouse kicks your butt and your friends get up off the floor from laughing, you will probably have the right answer.

Hopefully all this is a moot point, but every issue has at least two sides and being on one side or the other doesn't turn you into a devil. It merely means you have a different view.

Don't give a rat's ass whether you strike or not, just don't like seeing a few radicals trying to lead a good bunch of men and women over the cliff for what is probably a bunch of fluff. If it is warranted...go for it...if it is just nice to have, you won't have much support.

 

[realityman]

Gret,

Not a correct analogy. We aren't 'recruiting'. Everyone is already in the union. Now I do realize that the former NJI folks had no choice.
But didn't they? The union is not forcing anyone to remain employed at NJA. Hate unions, and especially THIS union? No problem, quit and take another job that's non-union where the employer can screw with you wages and work rules all day, every day.
I always enjoyed B19's posts where he would argue that if you didn't like the work conditions at a non-union shop you should just quit and go somewhere else. Well, I would argue the same applies to folks working at union shops who don't like it.

If you choose to stay, then whether you like it or not, you are accepting the union way of doing things. I'm pretty sure everyone currently here knows what it's all about. If you then decide you're going to actively work against the union's goals (which is what scabbing is) then you are also accepting the consequences of doing that. Coming on message boards and whining that you don't understand why union folks are such big meanies to scabbers is like complaining you don't understand why your best buddy hates you after you've slept with his wife.

By the way, the financial reports at NJA are quite impressive! Please explain why you think now isn't the time to ask for the moon. Additionally, these negotiations will take some time. Years really. When asking for more, I would agree that timing is everything. But if the trends are looking up, you need to start the process to end up hitting it at the best point. It's a bit of a guess, but well, a lot of things are. If we wait until we are actually at the top of curve, by the time we get to the meat and potatoes of negotiations we may be into a downturn, which would not help our case one bit.

As for the rest of your post, it's irrelevant. Who cares what others make and whether they'd be happy to be where we are now. Are you suggesting that we should all compare ourselves to the lowest paid people in America, and if we're above them just shut up and be happy? Great. We can all make minimum wage and not complain because that's what others do. I suppose if I tell my friends and family what my compensation package is compared to the average janitor and mention we are trying for more, they might be laughing their butts off. But if I tell them my compensation package compared to the other top-of-the-line professional compensation packages in this industry (FedEx, Delta, United, heck, even USAirways) they would probably wish me luck and wonder why I make so much less.

I suppose it's all perspective. I can appreciate yours, but can't agree with it.

You know, it still amazes me that pilots don't support each other 100% when another group of pilots are trying to improve things. What is it to you or Yip if we're trying for a much improved compensation package? If we succeed, isn't that good for everyone across the industry? Everyone hates the race to the bottom we've seen so often in this industry, and even get derisive about the pilots who take concessionary contracts, or go to work for ratbag operators. But so many of those same folks also appear to hate those who are trying to race to the top. Why isn't every single person on Flightinfo (who isn't a management troll) cheering us on and wishing us the best? I remember so many telling us that our '05 contract would bankrupt the company. And even after we went on to record profits AFTER the contract was signed, no one said 'nice job'. And ironically, we saw a lot of other operators give raises to their pilots 'coincidentally' right after our contract was signed. Heck, Citationshares' new pay scales almost exactly mirrored our pay scales. Oh yeah, coincidence. I wonder how many union haters at other operators who got raises right after us rushed to give that money back to their employer.

How about everyone just say "Good luck guys.". If you work at NJA, our success will directly benefit you. If you don't work here, our success is still likely to benefit you in some way.

And if we fail or put the company out of business, THEN come in with all the "greedy idiots" and "I knew that was going to happen" and "stupid union" comments.

 

[Praetorian]

Newsflash: Gret is paid to post on this forum by union busters.

Remember something fundamental. If he and his masters had their way, they would have us all down on our knees groveling before our management.

 

[gret]

Again, we're being a bit melodramatic aren't we?

You left yourself open with wording in the comments, but it's Mother Day's and I'm enjoying the golf on TV so we'll let it pass.

 

[Praetorian]

Spoken like a true Internet strategist.

Have a good Mother's Day.

 

[pilotyip]

Again, we're being a bit melodramatic aren't we?

Not if you are a "company buster", remember on FI if you are not 100% pro-union you are 100% anti-union. There is no middle ground which you have approached in a reasonable manner like G4. But that is not allowed to stand, you have just become everything that is wrong with this industry. If you did not work for a NJ, a major airline, or a Fortune 500 Flight Department, well you would be demonstrating your mediocrity.

Conversations that should be taking place on a company union Website, are being discussed in public and public comment has to be expected.

 

[gret]

Well...I'm no union buster (what do they do anyway?), instead

I am just a poor boy
Though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocket full of mumbles such are promises
All lies and jests
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest​

If you want to strike...have at it if the cause is justified...and remember the Twinkie Tango.

I was kinda cheering on Sergio today until he knocked 2 in the water on #17.

 

[Pervis]

Some of you guys are either joking or entirely clueless how labor relations work for RLA employees. To think we can simply decide to strike is ludicrous. Most importantly, if anyone here believes our super duper pro-labor Demo gubment will allow a strike against one of their biggest contributers, BKS, you should really get out more.

When we started section 6 in 2000, even management were suggesting kick arse pay and a super contract, until we came to the money. Sales were so high that we tripped over dollars to save dimes and cared not for the cost of operations, yet a raise for the pilots would break the company. Well guess what? In spite of significant raises in '05 and '07, we're still here, even after the recession.

Here we are after the biggest financial crisis in our life times and we are advertising record profits on ops alone, reduction of nearly two billion in debt over a very few years, and the anti union types still claim our efforts will destroy the company? Hardly. We want a share of the cash we bring in through a direct interface with our customers the rest of the comany, including JH and company, never experience. Who really makes the wheels turn in this business?

If any one of the crew were to suffer even minor medical issues resulting in non-flying status, we could still do their job-in most cases better-due to our intimate relationship with the business and its clientelle. Could they do ours? Possibly, after years of training and experience we achieved through work far more intense and time consuming than an appointment to daddy's law firm.

To believe any doom and gloom from management is ridiculous based upon current and future outlook. Look at those "poor" execs in companies that do fail. Guys like Boisture, Scheeringa, Lorenzo, etc go onto their next conquest after destroying their last and still rake in millions and depart all the while blaming the working stiff. And some continue to believe this horse crap? A message for management hacks. We're a bit more experienced and educated than the 3rd grade gradiates from the Bayou (no offense intended to our Southern bretheren).

 

[APFPilot]

Gret,

Not a correct analogy. We aren't 'recruiting'. Everyone is already in the union. Now I do realize that the former NJI folks had no choice.
But didn't they? The union is not forcing anyone to remain employed at NJA. Hate unions, and especially THIS union? No problem, quit and take another job that's non-union where the employer can screw with you wages and work rules all day, every day.
I always enjoyed B19's posts where he would argue that if you didn't like the work conditions at a non-union shop you should just quit and go somewhere else. Well, I would argue the same applies to folks working at union shops who don't like it.

If you choose to stay, then whether you like it or not, you are accepting the union way of doing things. I'm pretty sure everyone currently here knows what it's all about. If you then decide you're going to actively work against the union's goals (which is what scabbing is) then you are also accepting the consequences of doing that. Coming on message boards and whining that you don't understand why union folks are such big meanies to scabbers is like complaining you don't understand why your best buddy hates you after you've slept with his wife.

By the way, the financial reports at NJA are quite impressive! Please explain why you think now isn't the time to ask for the moon. Additionally, these negotiations will take some time. Years really. When asking for more, I would agree that timing is everything. But if the trends are looking up, you need to start the process to end up hitting it at the best point. It's a bit of a guess, but well, a lot of things are. If we wait until we are actually at the top of curve, by the time we get to the meat and potatoes of negotiations we may be into a downturn, which would not help our case one bit.

As for the rest of your post, it's irrelevant. Who cares what others make and whether they'd be happy to be where we are now. Are you suggesting that we should all compare ourselves to the lowest paid people in America, and if we're above them just shut up and be happy? Great. We can all make minimum wage and not complain because that's what others do. I suppose if I tell my friends and family what my compensation package is compared to the average janitor and mention we are trying for more, they might be laughing their butts off. But if I tell them my compensation package compared to the other top-of-the-line professional compensation packages in this industry (FedEx, Delta, United, heck, even USAirways) they would probably wish me luck and wonder why I make so much less.

I suppose it's all perspective. I can appreciate yours, but can't agree with it.

You know, it still amazes me that pilots don't support each other 100% when another group of pilots are trying to improve things. What is it to you or Yip if we're trying for a much improved compensation package? If we succeed, isn't that good for everyone across the industry? Everyone hates the race to the bottom we've seen so often in this industry, and even get derisive about the pilots who take concessionary contracts, or go to work for ratbag operators. But so many of those same folks also appear to hate those who are trying to race to the top. Why isn't every single person on Flightinfo (who isn't a management troll) cheering us on and wishing us the best? I remember so many telling us that our '05 contract would bankrupt the company. And even after we went on to record profits AFTER the contract was signed, no one said 'nice job'. And ironically, we saw a lot of other operators give raises to their pilots 'coincidentally' right after our contract was signed. Heck, Citationshares' new pay scales almost exactly mirrored our pay scales. Oh yeah, coincidence. I wonder how many union haters at other operators who got raises right after us rushed to give that money back to their employer.

How about everyone just say "Good luck guys.". If you work at NJA, our success will directly benefit you. If you don't work here, our success is still likely to benefit you in some way.

And if we fail or put the company out of business, THEN come in with all the "greedy idiots" and "I knew that was going to happen" and "stupid union" comments.

How far would you carry that 100%. If you were booked a ticket on a 121 carrier that was striking but your flight home to family was operated by scabs would you still take it? Does it only apply to pilot groups? Would you cross the FA's picket line? What if the line guys were striking? Would you fly pax that had to book with NJA if another carrier was striking?

 

[Pervis]

How far would you carry that 100%. If you were booked a ticket on a 121 carrier that was striking but your flight home to family was operated by scabs would you still take it? Does it only apply to pilot groups? Would you cross the FA's picket line? What if the line guys were striking? Would you fly pax that had to book with NJA if another carrier was striking?

Simple answer-no. It's defined in our CBA.

 

[realityman]

How far would you carry that 100%. If you were booked a ticket on a 121 carrier that was striking but your flight home to family was operated by scabs would you still take it? Does it only apply to pilot groups? Would you cross the FA's picket line? What if the line guys were striking? Would you fly pax that had to book with NJA if another carrier was striking?

Nope.

Pervis is correct. We can not be required to cross ANY unionized picket. I suppose some might do it anyway (probably the same ones who would cross our own picket if it came to that, which, by the way, it won't). But most of us would not.

As to the comment about the pax, we have no way to know where they are coming from. However, if they are flying on us, they are either owners or cardholders, which would make them our own clients. Flight Options management (as an example) could not simply book their clients on our planes if their own pilots went on strike.

But your comments and questions are irrelevant to the points I was making about supporting pilots who are trying for better. I'm not talking about crossing picket lines or flying someone else's pax or whatever.

I'm simply talking about all the other pilots just saying "Good luck! Hope you succeed!". I'll never understand why anyone else would come on here (or anywhere) and start in with "You guys are greedy", "You're gonna kill your company", "You're out of line for asking for more", "Other people in this country make less, you should just be happy with what you have". Here's a question or two for everybody here that doesn't currently work for NJA: If we, here at NJA, are successful in securing a much better contract for ourselves, what is the harm to you? Can you see no possible way it might actually benefit you as well (I can think of several off the top of my head)? Why not just wish us luck? What is your thought process behind criticizing our attempt?

Unless you're a management troll, I would think every single pilot here would be cheering for us.

Like I said, If we fail or kill the company there'll be plenty of time for all the negative comments.

 

[APFPilot]

Awesome really glad to hear that. When I was in college I was a line guy at an airport that was very popular with NJA (I'm sure you can guess where) management was hammering us and we threatened union. Scared them enough to quit messing with us. We were wondering if our line would get crossed if it came to it. Just for the record I don't fly for a living (no not management) and while I am generally not a fan of unions pilot work groups are one of the exceptions.

Edit: also like others have said a vote yes goes a long way to avoiding a strike.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Conversations that should be taking place on a company union Website...

There's no room for conversations on our union website. Only personal vendettas, balkanized internecine warfare, union dogma, and general poo-flinging.

I gave up on it long ago.

FlightInfo is a collegial coffee klatch by comparison.

Jussssss sayin'

 

[pilotyip]

Simple answer-no. It's defined in our CBA.

What about flying a CAL where the Scabs won? or we don't count that because because they were allowed back in the union?

 

[realityman]

What about flying a CAL where the Scabs won? or we don't count that because because they were allowed back in the union?

First of all, scabs don't win. They aren't fighting for anything. Just crossing their union's picket line. The only 'winners' would either be the union or the company.

As for the flying, regardless of who wins, when the strike is over, it's over. If there's no picket line, we have to proceed. And really Yip, how the heck would we in the back have any idea whether it was a scab flying or not? But it doesn't matter because our CBA only allows us to the right to refuse to cross a picket line. Like I said, when the strike is over, no more picket line, therefore regardless of who won we must proceed.

Once again, I still wonder why folks like you don't just wish us luck. If we succeed it'll only be good for the industry. It sure doesn't hurt you in any way. If we fail, it still doesn't hurt you. And really, it'll never come to a strike. Nobody is going to kill Netjets.

I understand you're very anti-union. No problem with that. My question isn't about anyone else's attitude about scabs or union treatment of them. My question is simply why don't folks support everyone, union or not, who are trying to bring the bar up for fellow pilots. if you're happy where you're at, that's great! But isn't it nice to know that you, or your fellow co-workers, could have even more options in the future to choose to go to a company you enjoy flying at AND make top-of-the-line compensation? If you don't ever want to come here that's great. But why wouldn't you just say "Good luck guys. Nice to see some folks aren't joining the race to the bottom."