More Furlough Rumblings at Flex

[Sandlapper]

All I'm saying is, a marriage with two incomes is like a plane with two engines. You lose one, you still stay in the air. Or at least you don't reach the crash site so fast.
And none of the OT w h o r e s I've met had wives who lost their jobs. Their wives never had jobs to begin with.

I've traveled all over the world, and the only two places I've been where this weird situation (seemingly intelligent, educated women stuck in exclusively domestic roles) seems to exist are here and the Middle East, and it really didn't even come into being here until the fifties. Before that, working class women (and, yes, pilots are working class) were just as likely as men to work, even if married.

My mom and dad both worked--they were teachers. I never felt that I or my sisters ever were the worse for it. If anything, I believe a working mom is a healthier role model for girls than a stay-at-homer.

And here's another thing. I've made an informal study of friends' wives--those who work versus those who stay at home all day. Those who work seem waaaaayyy happier and, well, normal, to me than those who hang around the house all day trying to invent things to occupy themselves.

A home-bound wife is a luxury item, just like a Lexus or a country club membership or a big boat. If you have one, and you have to pick up every overtime shift that comes along, you get no sympathy from me.

Gotta weigh in here...I grew up in a house where both parents worked full time, grew up in daycare centers, latchkey kid, etc. I envied my friends who came home from school & had their Mom there to encourage homework being done, etc. My parents just kind of assumed (& hoped) that we were all doing the right things.

As the parent of 3 young kids, both my wife and I agree that the best investment we can make right now for them is having us raise them as opposed to nannies & daycare centers. They'll be better for it, and so will we. I take the opposite view as you - I would consider having a spouse that works as a luxury item. Its the lifestyle you chose to lead as a single-income family that falls into the "luxury" category. A guy that gets himself so underwater on a single income is a sad sight...a little prior planning & budgetary discipline goes a long way. I drive a 10 year old car, we clip coupons every Sunday, and we teach our kids the importance of saving money as one of life's everyday lessons. I've got a 3 gallon jug in our living room where I empty all my spare change at the end of the day & encourage my kids to pick up pennies & contribute. At the end of the year, we count it all (usually around $1,000) and buy something for the entire family.

Maybe I'm lucky, but then again, maybe I created my own luck. Everyone does what works best for them - no judgement here, just thought I'd share my personal situation.

 

[BarryMan]

Gotta weigh in here...I grew up in a house where both parents worked full time, grew up in daycare centers, latchkey kid, etc. I envied my friends who came home from school & had their Mom there to encourage homework being done, etc. My parents just kind of assumed (& hoped) that we were all doing the right things.

As the parent of 3 young kids, both my wife and I agree that the best investment we can make right now for them is having us raise them as opposed to nannies & daycare centers. They'll be better for it, and so will we. I take the opposite view as you - I would consider having a spouse that works as a luxury item. Its the lifestyle you chose to lead as a single-income family that falls into the "luxury" category. A guy that gets himself so underwater on a single income is a sad sight...a little prior planning & budgetary discipline goes a long way. I drive a 10 year old car, we clip coupons every Sunday, and we teach our kids the importance of saving money as one of life's everyday lessons. I've got a 3 gallon jug in our living room where I empty all my spare change at the end of the day & encourage my kids to pick up pennies & contribute. At the end of the year, we count it all (usually around $1,000) and buy something for the entire family.

Maybe I'm lucky, but then again, maybe I created my own luck. Everyone does what works best for them - no judgement here, just thought I'd share my personal situation.

Very well said sir...........could not agree with you more!!!

 

[ArtVandalay]

Mr mclain, I did not state as a fact you were on the CAB. I assumed it based on your attitude.

I would, however, like you to explain to all of us morons how flight time entitles you to understand business. This "experience" you speak of is sitting in an airplane like everyone else yet, you wear it as if it warrants you some distinguished badge of knowledge; when in reality, you're just another pilot that thinks he knows how to run an organization because he has "x" number of hours in an airplane and "x" number of years with the company. By your logic, the person one number ahead of you is more qualified to run the company than you are. If you are such an "expert" in the fractional business, why haven't you been in charge of anything other than a flight attendant?

 

[GSXR600]

Why is this topic turned into a family battle........let's go back to the original post pleaseeee!!...........Anyone have the latest and greatest about those training slots for september? Did they really laid off flight attendants as well?

 

[netjetwife]

All I'm saying is, a marriage with two incomes is like a plane with two engines. You lose one, you still stay in the air. Or at least you don't reach the crash site so fast. First a serious point: Those who make a professional salary are able to save for emergencies. Now a fun one: Single engine fighters are very effective. And none of the OT w h o r e s I've met had wives who lost their jobs. Their wives never had jobs to begin with. There are probably pilots not doing OT who also have stay-home wives, supporting their decision. My husband gave up OT and I doubt we're the only 1 income frac family who thinks it's the right thing to do.

I've traveled all over the world, and the only two places I've been where this weird situation (seemingly intelligent, educated women stuck in exclusively domestic roles) seems to exist are here and the Middle East, If we look at the wives of professionals, especially those in demanding occupations that require a lot of time away from the children, I think we'll see stay-home wives/moms all over the world. and it really didn't even come into being here until the fifties. Before that, working class women (and, yes, pilots are working class) They work hard but they have very highly specialized skills that took years to acquire and they are expensive to replace; thus, are more aligned with working professionals --white collar, not blue collar. were just as likely as men to work, even if married. Actually, you've got it backwards. Before WW2 it was unusual to see women in the workplace. They filled jobs left vacant when the men went to war and some of them stayed in the workplace. Then the birth control pill (1960s) enabled more to take jobs outside the home. Our increasing commercialism as a society made 2 income families a "necessity" for most, but professionals (typically higher paid) often have one parent home full time w/their children.

...I believe a working mom is a healthier role model for girls than a stay-at-homer. Both examples have value. That's why I volunteer at my daughter's school. Instilling a good work ethic is the important thing and work is work regardless of where its done or whether you get paid, or not.

And here's another thing. I've made an informal study of friends' wives--those who work versus those who stay at home all day. Those who work seem waaaaayyy happier and, well, normal, to me than those who hang around the house all day trying to invent things to occupy themselves. Informal and unscientific. It boils down to personal interests. I'm sure there are many wives at home that are busy and happy, especially mothers w/kids at home.

A home-bound wife is a luxury item, just like a Lexus or a country club membership or a big boat. If you have one, and you have to pick up every overtime shift that comes along, you get no sympathy from me.

Those paid a professional salary consider it a lifestyle choice that they can afford. My husband prefers to have me there when he is home. He doesn't consider quality family and couple time as a luxury; he sees it as necessary for a decent standard of living. Fair (professional) compensation allows pilots to choose the lifestyle that best suits their family and makes OT unnecessary in affording that personal preference.

As part of the Voluntary Measures at NJ my husband (with my vote) gave up OT and reduced his schedule from the 18 day to the 7&7 in an effort to help prevent furloughs. If we were at Flex he wouldn't work OT. It's my experience that selfish people can come up with lots of excuses to justify their behavior. A stay home spouse shouldn't be a factor in the decision. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Sandlapper, good post and good idea on the money jar. We have a petty cash fund/jar and entertainment is budgeted accordingly during the year.

Children are usually quite empathetic and happy to support worthy causes. I think frac kids would gladly give up extras OT could buy if they were told that doing so would help keep other kids parents employed.

GSX, I think the news will be shared as soon as someone has it. In the meantime, other discussions build camaraderie.

 

[flex*wife]

Why is this topic turned into a family battle........let's go back to the original post pleaseeee!!...........Anyone have the latest and greatest about those training slots for september? Did they really laid off flight attendants as well?

While I would the opportunity to defend my lifestyle choice and point out that I am far from a luxury item, I have to agree with GSXR600 that there are more pressing matters at hand. Surely someone out there has some info that can be helpful? I noticed there was a pre-emptive strike by FR that cuts were coming, and we know they were to happen by last friday, but not a single word has been said as to exactly what was done. How's that the typical for lack of transparency?

As for the type of OT John McClain described, I don't think that's the kind that upsets most people, John. I think its when people are calling in and asking for extra duty, bidding days up to the max etc... It just kinda sucks while people are on the street to know there are people who are all about ME ME ME. Perhaps you are right and most people are intrinscially greedy and selfish, but I do know it is a concern that it is happening. And I do want to defend you for a bit John -- you are right Flexjet is an awesome place to work especially in light of the PLENTY of other aviation jobs my husband has had. But it could be better, more awesomer if you will, and the answer to that solution is all I think most are seeking. If you have a real solution that doesn't include a like it or lump it sentiment I betcha you would be surprised at how much respect you'd garner, at least from me. I'm sure that's your number one priority ;-)

I do just want to say though Dooker that when I left my career (and it was a career, not a job) to raise my kids, the last thing on my mind was whether or not it would elevate my husband's status among his peers to have the ultimate luxury item. The income hit we took forced us to make tough choices, we sold our home, moved to a smaller one and downscaled considerably. My car might be old, my clothes might not be as trendy and it's been forever since I ordered wine in a fancy restaurant but I wouldn't ever change a thing about it. Our family time is precious and we actually get to have some because when my husband is at work I have the time to do things for him so he can relax while he's home. He gets to worry more about what he and my son will do for the day then which drycleaner is on the way to the bike shop or home depot. I know how to work a lawnmower, grout a tub and fillout a Flexjet expense form. I also keep track of all his hours and let me tell you I have found $$ mistakes on his paychecks more than a few times this year. (Sidenote: If you are just leaving it up to Flexjet to make sure you get paid for your hourly OT I have some Arizona oceanfront property to sell you.) (And I'm just talking the daily over 12 stuff: He DOES NOT pick up extra days) If I had a job I wouldn't do one of these things let alone a all of them. Life is far from June Cleaver for me. But I love it and honestly feel when I look back 20 years from now I will feel I accomplished far greater things than my job, as awesome as it was, would have ever afforded me. I do some part time work, but only sporadically and more to give my husband alone time than anything else!

Perhaps it is a luxury for him to know he and our kids are my number one priority, but I dare you to name me a single man that wouldn't like for the same. (And that is NOT a diss on working Moms or families who make different choices, just the way our life has worked out.)

 

[John MClain]

Mr mclain, I did not state as a fact you were on the CAB. I assumed it based on your attitude.

I would, however, like you to explain to all of us morons how flight time entitles you to understand business. This "experience" you speak of is sitting in an airplane like everyone else yet, you wear it as if it warrants you some distinguished badge of knowledge; when in reality, you're just another pilot that thinks he knows how to run an organization because he has "x" number of hours in an airplane and "x" number of years with the company. By your logic, the person one number ahead of you is more qualified to run the company than you are. If you are such an "expert" in the fractional business, why haven't you been in charge of anything other than a flight attendant?

Ok little man, I'll bite this last time and then I'm done because you truly are the definition of a MORON, and there is no getting through to someone who is by their history on this forum so disgruntled with his current place in life. I have tried to find just one of your many posts that had at least an inkling of positivity about FlexJet, but no dice. I'll say it again, your avatar fits you absolutely perfectly.

First things first, you made an assumption about my CAB membership based on my attitude. CAB members have a specific attitude? Interesting. How many of the current members do you actually know personally? I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't name 2 of the current members if you tried, but you know enough to claim that they have an identifiable ATTITUDE. Ok then, whatever.

I never said flight time made, or in your words "entitles" me to understand business, flight time is a result of experience as an aviation professional and my 28 years has enabled me to acquire a significant amount of flight time. You make another assumption, (you like doing that don't you) that my or for that matter, anybody else's experience in aviation is just sitting in an airplane. This assumption alone is a perfect example of what I've been talking about and shows just how immature, inexperienced and moronic you really are. While i have done a significant amount of sitting in various aircraft, the fact of the matter is you don't know a damn thing about me or your chosen profession if you feel sitting in an airplane is the only way to earn a distinguished badge of knowledge. What do you suppose I was doing in addition to just sitting in an airplane during those 17 years I spent prior to coming to work for FlexJet you simple minded, spoiled, give it to me now twerp.

Face it, you are a mental midget and out of your league here. it's so funny that it's almost sad such simple minded one thought wonders can with out a doubt proclaim that the end all solution to the so called sodomizing you claim to regularly receive at FlexJet can be solved by a UNION.

Your final statement speaks volumes about your maturity level and again your obvious lack of experience other than Flex or possibly flight instruction. I have never considered myself "in charge of" flight attendants. I've always considered them as fellow crewmembers and part of a team, sometimes 10 of them and I always treated them with the respect they have earned and certainly deserved. I would suggest that some day if you should find yourself IN CHARGE of some flight attendants, you park that ego or get the coffee or crewmeals yourself.

 

[EatSleepFly]

GSX, I think the news will be shared as soon as someone has it. In the meantime, other discussions build camaraderie.

I'm with Gixxer, there are more important things to worry about than a bunch of faceless screen names building "camaraderie" (also known on flightinfo as animosity). Perhaps another thread could be started to discuss how to best raise your children. On second thought, you can have this one and maybe someone will start one about what's going on at Flexjet... although I could've sworn that's how this one started out.

 

[doh]

So you give thanks for having a job that requires two incomes. I don't get it. Just asking.

It doesn't matter what job you have if you spend more than you make. That was his point. If you want to fund a McMansion, a huge boat, a sports car, the Harley collection and two Beemers, the ol' lady better make some coin! Is it clear now?

 

[netjetwife]

After 10 pages one shouldn't be surprised when FI members discuss other topics while waiting for additional info on the original subject to be posted. I thought pilots were good at multi-tasking...

Regarding camaraderie: It isn't necessary to know the name of a person in your neighborhood just to have a chat when you walk past their house. Friendliness adds to the atmosphere of an area. Same here. Pilots and their family members often have more in common with each other (because of the lifestyle) than they do with other groups so it's natural for them to chat in a frac forum--about big issues and daily life.

Re Unions: As previously stated, they give frac pilots a place at the table and the opportunity to see that solutions/rules are fair. Pilots have a legal right to organize their efforts and have their interests represented by one of their own. Holding an election to see what the majority wants is the American way.

 

[EatSleepFly]

After 10 pages one shouldn't be surprised when FI members discuss other topics while waiting for additional info on the original subject to be posted. I thought pilots were good at multi-tasking...

Sorry, I kind of forgot I was a pilot, it's been awhile. :0

Carry on...

 

[GSXR600]

While I would the opportunity to defend my lifestyle choice and point out that I am far from a luxury item, I have to agree with GSXR600 that there are more pressing matters at hand. Surely someone out there has some info that can be helpful? I noticed there was a pre-emptive strike by FR that cuts were coming, and we know they were to happen by last friday, but not a single word has been said as to exactly what was done. How's that the typical for lack of transparency?

As for the type of OT John McClain described, I don't think that's the kind that upsets most people, John. I think its when people are calling in and asking for extra duty, bidding days up to the max etc... It just kinda sucks while people are on the street to know there are people who are all about ME ME ME. Perhaps you are right and most people are intrinscially greedy and selfish, but I do know it is a concern that it is happening. And I do want to defend you for a bit John -- you are right Flexjet is an awesome place to work especially in light of the PLENTY of other aviation jobs my husband has had. But it could be better, more awesomer if you will, and the answer to that solution is all I think most are seeking. If you have a real solution that doesn't include a like it or lump it sentiment I betcha you would be surprised at how much respect you'd garner, at least from me. I'm sure that's your number one priority ;-)

I do just want to say though Dooker that when I left my career (and it was a career, not a job) to raise my kids, the last thing on my mind was whether or not it would elevate my husband's status among his peers to have the ultimate luxury item. The income hit we took forced us to make tough choices, we sold our home, moved to a smaller one and downscaled considerably. My car might be old, my clothes might not be as trendy and it's been forever since I ordered wine in a fancy restaurant but I wouldn't ever change a thing about it. Our family time is precious and we actually get to have some because when my husband is at work I have the time to do things for him so he can relax while he's home. He gets to worry more about what he and my son will do for the day then which drycleaner is on the way to the bike shop or home depot. I know how to work a lawnmower, grout a tub and fillout a Flexjet expense form. I also keep track of all his hours and let me tell you I have found $$ mistakes on his paychecks more than a few times this year. (Sidenote: If you are just leaving it up to Flexjet to make sure you get paid for your hourly OT I have some Arizona oceanfront property to sell you.) (And I'm just talking the daily over 12 stuff: He DOES NOT pick up extra days) If I had a job I wouldn't do one of these things let alone a all of them. Life is far from June Cleaver for me. But I love it and honestly feel when I look back 20 years from now I will feel I accomplished far greater things than my job, as awesome as it was, would have ever afforded me. I do some part time work, but only sporadically and more to give my husband alone time than anything else!

Perhaps it is a luxury for him to know he and our kids are my number one priority, but I dare you to name me a single man that wouldn't like for the same. (And that is NOT a diss on working Moms or families who make different choices, just the way our life has worked out.)

Damn girl!!!............ya'll got a sister? But shiizzzzzz......dont tell her I am on welfare....

 

[notapilot]

It doesn't matter what job you have if you spend more than you make. That was his point. If you want to fund a McMansion, a huge boat, a sports car, the Harley collection and two Beemers, the ol' lady better make some coin! Is it clear now?

My sarcastic question gets a sarcastic answer. I don't know anyone who lives the lifestyle you describe relying on OT, but ok.

 

[netjetwife]

.... I am not on the sidelines, I am in the game. As a complete partner to my husband, this very much concerns me, I think about it all the time and try to be as knowledgable and interactive as I can be in order to support him better. I know that some of you either don't believe that or it pi$$es you off or you think I have overstepped my bounds, but I can assure you it's the only partner I know how to be. Same here. Kudos to you Flexwife!

Granted I am not flying out on the line and as a non pilot I know that automatically disqualifies me to some of you, but believe me I am invested in what happens at flex in more ways than one. It effects not just my husband but our entire family. Absolutely! And there's no one better suited to represent our families than a pilot likewise affected who was elected by majority vote. ... There are serious matters at hand for the economy, the industry and this company. Exactly! And when management wants to make changes that negatively impact pilots and their families the pilots need to be sitting at the table for the full discussion, speaking in one voice with legal standing that can't be ignored. ....

The thread is about how scared crapless some of us are to lose what we have and how pi$$ed some of us are that some have already lost. ... .... .

If the economy doesn't improve quickly I very much fear that a lot of NJ folks will wind up in the same position. Many are already worried, but they know that NJASAP is at the table making sure their interests are represented and the contract is followed to ensure fairness. BTW, the NJ contract has rules in place that make sure furloughs are a last resort, not just an easy fix for management. If furloughs are unavoidable the pilots have unlimited recall rights. Aren't Flex pilots getting only 2 yrs? That just adds more stress and frustration to a situation that's already bad. Flex families can't count on getting Cobra money, right? Management could change that at anytime, couldn't they? NJ pilots get a lot of peace of mind knowing that rules they negotiated will be followed. It's an assurance Flex families deserve, too. Best wishes to you and your family, Flexwife, and to the rest of your pilotgroup. BTW, my personal definition of pilotgroup includes the family members ...for all the reasons you stated in your post. Hang in there! NJW

 

[Dingo221]

Remember, Netjet lost 449 millions $ in 6 months!
Do you want some fries with that ?

 

[netjetwife]

Corporation finances get complicated so I'm not sure what the total actual loss is but suffice it to say the economic crisis has hit NJ, too, which is why I posted that furloughs are a real concern. I doubt that anyone associated w/NJ needs a numerical reminder of how bad things are.

My family discusses the situation a lot. We're glad a strong contract is in place that spells out exactly how furloughs, downgrades, etc would take place and precisely what operational changes management can make without NJASAP's agreement. The road ahead could get very bumpy for NJ folks as the new CEO puts the Company back on track but fortunately the CBA takes most of the stressful guesswork out of the equation. Reading this thread, it sounds like the Flex pilotgroup is dealing with a lot more uncertainty and might be left in the dark until management announces their decisions. That's gotta be tough! In contrast, NJASAP leaders have already met the new CEO and the pilots are being kept fully informed every step of the way.

It's a risky proposition to rely on management's good will in the best economy when they may be feeling generous; doing so in grim economic times can be downright scary. I definitely wouldn't want my husband's career/our family's income left to the whim of managers at a time when many look out only for themselves and/or consider no interests outside of their own. Good luck to all our frac families in these difficult days, especially to those who have more questions than answers, be it no job or no information. You have my sympathy. NJW

 

[DUATS]

Remember, Netjet lost 449 millions $ in 6 months!
Do you want some fries with that ?

I wonder how much of that was one time charges to cover the cost of the furlough mitigation agreements?

 

[netjetwife]

Upon closer examination there's a lot more than meets the eye. For example, the early out package looks like a big cost initially but won't it save money when NJ isn't paying the full salary to those pilots? Likewise, when NJ has to buy back the shares of owners who've had to cut back, doesn't it show up as a loss now but will be an asset when the market rebounds and the share is resold?

Luckily, the NJASAP President and the VP of Finances get regular financial briefings from the Company so they're able to monitor the situation and asses the pilotgroup's position. No one likes to hear bad news, but being kept in the dark with no time to prepare would be even worse in most eyes. For those facing an uncertain future every valid piece of info means a lot. Public thanks for the NJASAP (4-1-1) updates and kudos to those who help bring the news to the NJ pilots and their families. NJW

 

[ArtVandalay]

Ok little man, I'll bite this last time and then I'm done because you truly are the definition of a MORON, and there is no getting through to someone who is by their history on this forum so disgruntled with his current place in life. I have tried to find just one of your many posts that had at least an inkling of positivity about FlexJet, but no dice. I'll say it again, your avatar fits you absolutely perfectly.

First things first, you made an assumption about my CAB membership based on my attitude. CAB members have a specific attitude? Interesting. How many of the current members do you actually know personally? I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't name 2 of the current members if you tried, but you know enough to claim that they have an identifiable ATTITUDE. Ok then, whatever.

I never said flight time made, or in your words "entitles" me to understand business, flight time is a result of experience as an aviation professional and my 28 years has enabled me to acquire a significant amount of flight time. You make another assumption, (you like doing that don't you) that my or for that matter, anybody else's experience in aviation is just sitting in an airplane. This assumption alone is a perfect example of what I've been talking about and shows just how immature, inexperienced and moronic you really are. While i have done a significant amount of sitting in various aircraft, the fact of the matter is you don't know a damn thing about me or your chosen profession if you feel sitting in an airplane is the only way to earn a distinguished badge of knowledge. What do you suppose I was doing in addition to just sitting in an airplane during those 17 years I spent prior to coming to work for FlexJet you simple minded, spoiled, give it to me now twerp.

Face it, you are a mental midget and out of your league here. it's so funny that it's almost sad such simple minded one thought wonders can with out a doubt proclaim that the end all solution to the so called sodomizing you claim to regularly receive at FlexJet can be solved by a UNION.

Your final statement speaks volumes about your maturity level and again your obvious lack of experience other than Flex or possibly flight instruction. I have never considered myself "in charge of" flight attendants. I've always considered them as fellow crewmembers and part of a team, sometimes 10 of them and I always treated them with the respect they have earned and certainly deserved. I would suggest that some day if you should find yourself IN CHARGE of some flight attendants, you park that ego or get the coffee or crewmeals yourself.

Thank you. You just reinforced exactly what my point was! You're right, I was wrong about you being on the CAB. I WAS right about you being in the 604 and that just validates my point. It's because your type are all the same. Answer the damn question and quit being a politician. "flight time is a result of experience"???? What does that statement mean?? I think you've shown us who the moron is, AGAIN. Please don't respond because you only dig yourself deeper with your rant.