More Furlough Rumblings at Flex

[netjetwife]

After 10 pages one shouldn't be surprised when FI members discuss other topics while waiting for additional info on the original subject to be posted. I thought pilots were good at multi-tasking...

Regarding camaraderie: It isn't necessary to know the name of a person in your neighborhood just to have a chat when you walk past their house. Friendliness adds to the atmosphere of an area. Same here. Pilots and their family members often have more in common with each other (because of the lifestyle) than they do with other groups so it's natural for them to chat in a frac forum--about big issues and daily life.

Re Unions: As previously stated, they give frac pilots a place at the table and the opportunity to see that solutions/rules are fair. Pilots have a legal right to organize their efforts and have their interests represented by one of their own. Holding an election to see what the majority wants is the American way.

 

[EatSleepFly]

After 10 pages one shouldn't be surprised when FI members discuss other topics while waiting for additional info on the original subject to be posted. I thought pilots were good at multi-tasking...

Sorry, I kind of forgot I was a pilot, it's been awhile. :0

Carry on...

 

[GSXR600]

While I would the opportunity to defend my lifestyle choice and point out that I am far from a luxury item, I have to agree with GSXR600 that there are more pressing matters at hand. Surely someone out there has some info that can be helpful? I noticed there was a pre-emptive strike by FR that cuts were coming, and we know they were to happen by last friday, but not a single word has been said as to exactly what was done. How's that the typical for lack of transparency?

As for the type of OT John McClain described, I don't think that's the kind that upsets most people, John. I think its when people are calling in and asking for extra duty, bidding days up to the max etc... It just kinda sucks while people are on the street to know there are people who are all about ME ME ME. Perhaps you are right and most people are intrinscially greedy and selfish, but I do know it is a concern that it is happening. And I do want to defend you for a bit John -- you are right Flexjet is an awesome place to work especially in light of the PLENTY of other aviation jobs my husband has had. But it could be better, more awesomer if you will, and the answer to that solution is all I think most are seeking. If you have a real solution that doesn't include a like it or lump it sentiment I betcha you would be surprised at how much respect you'd garner, at least from me. I'm sure that's your number one priority ;-)

I do just want to say though Dooker that when I left my career (and it was a career, not a job) to raise my kids, the last thing on my mind was whether or not it would elevate my husband's status among his peers to have the ultimate luxury item. The income hit we took forced us to make tough choices, we sold our home, moved to a smaller one and downscaled considerably. My car might be old, my clothes might not be as trendy and it's been forever since I ordered wine in a fancy restaurant but I wouldn't ever change a thing about it. Our family time is precious and we actually get to have some because when my husband is at work I have the time to do things for him so he can relax while he's home. He gets to worry more about what he and my son will do for the day then which drycleaner is on the way to the bike shop or home depot. I know how to work a lawnmower, grout a tub and fillout a Flexjet expense form. I also keep track of all his hours and let me tell you I have found $$ mistakes on his paychecks more than a few times this year. (Sidenote: If you are just leaving it up to Flexjet to make sure you get paid for your hourly OT I have some Arizona oceanfront property to sell you.) (And I'm just talking the daily over 12 stuff: He DOES NOT pick up extra days) If I had a job I wouldn't do one of these things let alone a all of them. Life is far from June Cleaver for me. But I love it and honestly feel when I look back 20 years from now I will feel I accomplished far greater things than my job, as awesome as it was, would have ever afforded me. I do some part time work, but only sporadically and more to give my husband alone time than anything else!

Perhaps it is a luxury for him to know he and our kids are my number one priority, but I dare you to name me a single man that wouldn't like for the same. (And that is NOT a diss on working Moms or families who make different choices, just the way our life has worked out.)

Damn girl!!!............ya'll got a sister? But shiizzzzzz......dont tell her I am on welfare....

 

[notapilot]

It doesn't matter what job you have if you spend more than you make. That was his point. If you want to fund a McMansion, a huge boat, a sports car, the Harley collection and two Beemers, the ol' lady better make some coin! Is it clear now?

My sarcastic question gets a sarcastic answer. I don't know anyone who lives the lifestyle you describe relying on OT, but ok.

 

[netjetwife]

.... I am not on the sidelines, I am in the game. As a complete partner to my husband, this very much concerns me, I think about it all the time and try to be as knowledgable and interactive as I can be in order to support him better. I know that some of you either don't believe that or it pi$$es you off or you think I have overstepped my bounds, but I can assure you it's the only partner I know how to be. Same here. Kudos to you Flexwife!

Granted I am not flying out on the line and as a non pilot I know that automatically disqualifies me to some of you, but believe me I am invested in what happens at flex in more ways than one. It effects not just my husband but our entire family. Absolutely! And there's no one better suited to represent our families than a pilot likewise affected who was elected by majority vote. ... There are serious matters at hand for the economy, the industry and this company. Exactly! And when management wants to make changes that negatively impact pilots and their families the pilots need to be sitting at the table for the full discussion, speaking in one voice with legal standing that can't be ignored. ....

The thread is about how scared crapless some of us are to lose what we have and how pi$$ed some of us are that some have already lost. ... .... .

If the economy doesn't improve quickly I very much fear that a lot of NJ folks will wind up in the same position. Many are already worried, but they know that NJASAP is at the table making sure their interests are represented and the contract is followed to ensure fairness. BTW, the NJ contract has rules in place that make sure furloughs are a last resort, not just an easy fix for management. If furloughs are unavoidable the pilots have unlimited recall rights. Aren't Flex pilots getting only 2 yrs? That just adds more stress and frustration to a situation that's already bad. Flex families can't count on getting Cobra money, right? Management could change that at anytime, couldn't they? NJ pilots get a lot of peace of mind knowing that rules they negotiated will be followed. It's an assurance Flex families deserve, too. Best wishes to you and your family, Flexwife, and to the rest of your pilotgroup. BTW, my personal definition of pilotgroup includes the family members ...for all the reasons you stated in your post. Hang in there! NJW

 

[Dingo221]

Remember, Netjet lost 449 millions $ in 6 months!
Do you want some fries with that ?

 

[netjetwife]

Corporation finances get complicated so I'm not sure what the total actual loss is but suffice it to say the economic crisis has hit NJ, too, which is why I posted that furloughs are a real concern. I doubt that anyone associated w/NJ needs a numerical reminder of how bad things are.

My family discusses the situation a lot. We're glad a strong contract is in place that spells out exactly how furloughs, downgrades, etc would take place and precisely what operational changes management can make without NJASAP's agreement. The road ahead could get very bumpy for NJ folks as the new CEO puts the Company back on track but fortunately the CBA takes most of the stressful guesswork out of the equation. Reading this thread, it sounds like the Flex pilotgroup is dealing with a lot more uncertainty and might be left in the dark until management announces their decisions. That's gotta be tough! In contrast, NJASAP leaders have already met the new CEO and the pilots are being kept fully informed every step of the way.

It's a risky proposition to rely on management's good will in the best economy when they may be feeling generous; doing so in grim economic times can be downright scary. I definitely wouldn't want my husband's career/our family's income left to the whim of managers at a time when many look out only for themselves and/or consider no interests outside of their own. Good luck to all our frac families in these difficult days, especially to those who have more questions than answers, be it no job or no information. You have my sympathy. NJW

 

[DUATS]

Remember, Netjet lost 449 millions $ in 6 months!
Do you want some fries with that ?

I wonder how much of that was one time charges to cover the cost of the furlough mitigation agreements?

 

[netjetwife]

Upon closer examination there's a lot more than meets the eye. For example, the early out package looks like a big cost initially but won't it save money when NJ isn't paying the full salary to those pilots? Likewise, when NJ has to buy back the shares of owners who've had to cut back, doesn't it show up as a loss now but will be an asset when the market rebounds and the share is resold?

Luckily, the NJASAP President and the VP of Finances get regular financial briefings from the Company so they're able to monitor the situation and asses the pilotgroup's position. No one likes to hear bad news, but being kept in the dark with no time to prepare would be even worse in most eyes. For those facing an uncertain future every valid piece of info means a lot. Public thanks for the NJASAP (4-1-1) updates and kudos to those who help bring the news to the NJ pilots and their families. NJW

 

[ArtVandalay]

Ok little man, I'll bite this last time and then I'm done because you truly are the definition of a MORON, and there is no getting through to someone who is by their history on this forum so disgruntled with his current place in life. I have tried to find just one of your many posts that had at least an inkling of positivity about FlexJet, but no dice. I'll say it again, your avatar fits you absolutely perfectly.

First things first, you made an assumption about my CAB membership based on my attitude. CAB members have a specific attitude? Interesting. How many of the current members do you actually know personally? I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't name 2 of the current members if you tried, but you know enough to claim that they have an identifiable ATTITUDE. Ok then, whatever.

I never said flight time made, or in your words "entitles" me to understand business, flight time is a result of experience as an aviation professional and my 28 years has enabled me to acquire a significant amount of flight time. You make another assumption, (you like doing that don't you) that my or for that matter, anybody else's experience in aviation is just sitting in an airplane. This assumption alone is a perfect example of what I've been talking about and shows just how immature, inexperienced and moronic you really are. While i have done a significant amount of sitting in various aircraft, the fact of the matter is you don't know a damn thing about me or your chosen profession if you feel sitting in an airplane is the only way to earn a distinguished badge of knowledge. What do you suppose I was doing in addition to just sitting in an airplane during those 17 years I spent prior to coming to work for FlexJet you simple minded, spoiled, give it to me now twerp.

Face it, you are a mental midget and out of your league here. it's so funny that it's almost sad such simple minded one thought wonders can with out a doubt proclaim that the end all solution to the so called sodomizing you claim to regularly receive at FlexJet can be solved by a UNION.

Your final statement speaks volumes about your maturity level and again your obvious lack of experience other than Flex or possibly flight instruction. I have never considered myself "in charge of" flight attendants. I've always considered them as fellow crewmembers and part of a team, sometimes 10 of them and I always treated them with the respect they have earned and certainly deserved. I would suggest that some day if you should find yourself IN CHARGE of some flight attendants, you park that ego or get the coffee or crewmeals yourself.

Thank you. You just reinforced exactly what my point was! You're right, I was wrong about you being on the CAB. I WAS right about you being in the 604 and that just validates my point. It's because your type are all the same. Answer the damn question and quit being a politician. "flight time is a result of experience"???? What does that statement mean?? I think you've shown us who the moron is, AGAIN. Please don't respond because you only dig yourself deeper with your rant.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Why is this topic turned into a family battle........let's go back to the original post pleaseeee!!...........Anyone have the latest and greatest about those training slots for september? Did they really laid off flight attendants as well?

Out on the road today and I heard some ramblings about these training slots. I can't confirm if the story about those slots is even true and no one else has said who even originally brought that up. If it is true it could only mean they are recalling because the story I heard was they were for initials. I guess it could be for fleet changes or maybe the 60 is going to be gone??? Who knows.

 

[DirtyBeech]

As far as Mr. DirtyBeech goes all I will say is this, anyone who states his current position as Defending the Frontier from Zur and the Kodan Armarda is just the type of person I want telling me what and how to fix all that is supposedly wrong at FlexJet. Being called a Toolbag from in inmature dweeb like him I'll take as a compliment.

Let that seasoned immaturity shine through. A toolbag doesn't understand the avatar or the information listed under it, isn't smart enough to google it to see if he's insulting someone, and pulls out the 50's era "dweeb" remark. Yup. You're a toolbag. Or ******************************nozzle. It's interchangeable. really.

 

[flex*wife]

A toolbag doesn't understand the avatar or the information listed under it, isn't smart enough to google it to see if he's insulting someone...

I never pay attention to avatars -- most of them on here are bound to make a gal self concious and I have always figured most of the hours and ratings at least in the fractional section are fictionalized for discretion. But John's rant and your response forced me to take a look and a google.

Not only are you pretty funny but apparently quite subtle in your reasoning and sources.... It was an aha moment... I hope I am not over intellectualizing the subtext of the xur but it lends a whole new perspective to your voice. You know of what you speak don't you?

Huh, I always liked you as dirtybeech but now that I understand I feel like I'm supposed to hate you ;-). I will from now on refer to you in my head as Rumford, a subtext only chicks would get, so your secret is safe with me...

 

[flex*wife]

Art, you and I don't always agree but you just have to take it on faith that some of us are are here to look for solutions, some of us are here to vent, some for answers and some of us are just bored.

But unfortunatly you will always have some that use the board as another way to suck up to management by not so artfully disclosing just enough info to make one easily identified and then they ALWAYS following up with pro-managament, lump it or leave it, Unions SUCK rhetoric.

Do a little flightinfo research (oh, say about 2 years ago) and then tell me if you've ever wondered about how some current management were able to secure their jobs even though they had expressed a desire to move forward from Flex but then reconsidered after their avenues were declined. I'm not saying he's doing a bad job, just saying I find it funny that one minute you are wanting to leave and then the next minute wanting to lead so badly you are willing to stab a friend in the back to get there. Yes, it looks like some are on here just to make sure they are in line to get the next ACP job. It looks like it'll be a long wait before y'all are able to rid yourselves of the most useless ones. Some at the Waterview are great, and in a strange way I think even DG is fairly good at what he does and not as anti-pilot as one might think (in a Santulli-esque kind of way).

Come on, y'all know I'm speaking truth on some of this... I might not know everything, but I know enough. Pilots are a chatty bunch, especially about things they aren't supposed to talk about...

 

[unclepetey]

Why is this topic turned into a family battle........let's go back to the original post pleaseeee!!...........Anyone have the latest and greatest about those training slots for september? Did they really laid off flight attendants as well?

They laid off 3 FAs last friday. They were in the group that was hired in the winter. I spoke to 2 of them and they were pretty surprised to get laid off.

 

[netjetwife]

So they had no warning that it was coming? If so, that makes it even harder...

I wish them luck. Finding a replacement job in this economy can be difficult.

 

[John MClain]

As far as Mr. DirtyBeech goes all I will say is this, anyone who states his current position as Defending the Frontier from Zur and the Kodan Armarda is just the type of person I want telling me what and how to fix all that is supposedly wrong at FlexJet. Being called a Toolbag from in inmature dweeb like him I'll take as a compliment.

Let that seasoned immaturity shine through. A toolbag doesn't understand the avatar or the information listed under it, isn't smart enough to google it to see if he's insulting someone, and pulls out the 50's era "dweeb" remark. Yup. You're a toolbag. Or ******************************nozzle. It's interchangeable. really.

I forgot who I was posting to, I'll try to explain. It's you who did not understand Mr. Dirty. i was simply stating that a grown man who fantasizes about being in a Cheesy "B" space movie from the eighties flying around in his Gunstar with a lizard headed space man while a robot facsimile is on earth given it to his girlfriend and they all live in a trailer park and where the only qualification to be a Gunstar pilot is to score above a specific amount on a coin operated video machine put there by a man from the future named Centari seems to be living in a dream world. I mean my god man, are you that clueless to think that only you would know about that stupid dud of a movie? If you spent as much time, effort and thought as it must of took to size and import that Avatar into the thought process of your posts, you might actually make some sense.

Tell Greeg, Lewis and Maggie hey when you see em !@#che Bag.

You, Costanza, Petey and Flexwife can have this forum, cause trying to converse with the likes of you all is in the words of the BORG is Futile.
I'm going back to my place in top 1/4 of the seniority list where know nothing Vandalay thinks I'm flying the 604, scarfing up all the overtime i can get while I simultaneously stick it to all you poor abused junior guy's. Maybe someday, just someday you'll nutup and realize you don't have it all that bad. But you wont, it's not in your nature to. You wont be happy until everyone around is as miserable as you, Your type shouldn't have to work or earn anything, it's should just be handed to you on a silver platter.

I am activating the Death Blossom now, sooo long.

 

[flex*wife]

Hey John, calm down dude--way down. Concievably everyone is really on the same side with a common goal, we just all have different ideas on how best to get there.

At the risk of getting blasted, your attitude isn't really helping people to your side, which based on what you write your ultimate goal is to help people see a different way.

Personally I am all about facts, history and sometimes statements. If people here have misrepresented Flex in any of those categories, then you should call them out on it. The problem is there is a lot of ranting but no real challenge to prove that we are wrong and you are right. How about instead of making fun of people (while sometimes appreciated and tolerated) you propose solutions? Also, be consistent in your statements--you have been wildly all over the map.

Also, just FYI you are taking the dirtybeech thing way too seriously. I believe he is using the movie and characters as a metaphor not a fantasy. It's actually quite brilliant if you'd take a step back and think it through.

Obviously you are a smart, talented asset to the pilot group. Can I ask that you use your skills and brains to help work for a solution that benefits everyone? Thanks!

 

[flex*wife]

So they had no warning that it was coming? If so, that makes it even harder...

I wish them luck. Finding a replacement job in this economy can be difficult.

NJW,

there was some warning that more cuts were going to be made with a deadline on the decisions who being last friday. I don't remember the exact language if the letter but the big cheese made it sound like these were all office layoffs and that the flight crews were safe for now. I think he even said flight crews were safe for the rest of the year barring no more scary economy crud. Now maybe he didn't mean to intimate that FAs were safe, but I think that's why they were surprised.

I still have not heard, and I usually hear something, about who else was let go. It is curiously quiet with that info.

Thanks for being concerned and curious. Every little bit helps especially from someone whose been around the fractional block a few times.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Boy, it's like clubbing baby seals with you John. Just too darn easy. Either you were a big fan of a 20+ year old cheesy science fiction flick and remembered far too much information (I couldn't have named anyone other than the main character without help), or you did the toolbag thing and went to IMDB, summarized the plotline, and then came here acting like you knew something about a flick in order to throw insults at a persona on an internet BBS. We'll go with option B. It would be fun to go to IMDB and see if you didn't just copy that tripe down word for word.

In an interesting bit of projection you've somehow theorized that people fantasize about their made up personas on said message board. Fits right in with your burning need to tell others about your TT, type ratings, and seniority position. Good thing you didn't take your persona from a cheesy action flick involving a cop defeating high tech bank robbers on Christmas or anything. Nope. You've cemented toolbag status alright.

Now run along, and take that fat paycheck that comes with your irrepresible urges to brag about your experience and company position, and buy yourself a pecker pump. It's clear that in addition to maturity and cognition, you're lacking in other areas as well.

NJW,
you're fighting a losing battle. We'll never have a union at Flex. Too many John McClains running around. This site is now mostly for finding out the info and gossip that people will never put on the BB.

 

[netjetwife]

DB, never say never...hope springs eternal... Seriously, I watched things turn around for the NJA pilots after they (and their spouses) decided to stand together. The Strong Union movement started small and gathered momentum until it became a grass roots campaign.

Some of the Options pilots also doubted they could get a Union but they kept passing out cards and talking it up and now they're at the bargaining table, wrapping up the final sections of their first (if approved by 1108) contract. You guys can do that, too.

I highly encourage those interested at Flex to pass out the cards calling for a vote. Perhaps seeing how the furloughs are being handled--little or no warning, only a 2yr recall when the industry standard is unlimited, etc--will have opened enough eyes to move the Flex pilotgroup forward, working on the same goals--together. When issues come up that grab the attention of the slow-to-rally they start looking at Unions differently. Hang in there, it's worth it in the end. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

NJW,... but I think that's why they were surprised. Thanks for the explanation. I still have not heard, and I usually hear something, about who else was let go. It is curiously quiet with that info. How frustrating! Sharing information is free, but some managers hoard it like it's gold... That is sooo wrong! Families need as much time as possible to prepare. NJ pilots work hand-in-hand w/management on joint committees, per their contract, and the Union puts out weekly updates.

Thanks for being concerned and curious. Every little bit helps especially from someone whose been around the fractional block a few times.

FW, I've always been concerned for/interested in the other frac families once I learned y'all were out there.... (Public thanks to FI for giving us this forum!) I feel very strongly that the family perspective should be represented and considered. Kudos to you for speaking up about the issues at Flex. I think you'll find that there are many things we have in common and I agree that it helps to compare notes with those who have trod the same path. Best Wishes! NJW

 

[Club ORD FO]

They laid off 3 FAs last friday. They were in the group that was hired in the winter. I spoke to 2 of them and they were pretty surprised to get laid off.

Well that right there means we are not getting globals. They'd need FAs if that was the case

 

[doh]

My sarcastic question gets a sarcastic answer. I don't know anyone who lives the lifestyle you describe relying on OT, but ok.

We have one who says he needs 18 days to pay his bills. Since 16 is a normal schedule, he is relying on being able to bid up every month. When we went to 14 days for the summer, he sounded kind of stressed. i don't know what his bills are, but he is on wife number one, so I assume he has toy problems. That's all I was refering to.

 

[GSXR600]

We have one who says he needs 18 days to pay his bills. Since 16 is a normal schedule, he is relying on being able to bid up every month. When we went to 14 days for the summer, he sounded kind of stressed. i don't know what his bills are, but he is on wife number one, so I assume he has toy problems. That's all I was refering to.

When did we go back to 16 days bid period since it has been 14 the normal after the second round of furloughs?

 

[notapilot]

deleted

 

[Hung Start]

Notapilot:

Why the delete? You said your piece, and even though I may disagree with you, I for one appeciate someone who will say his mind. You should have stuck with it.

Just a thought on the overtime piece, and feel free to counter my point. If people refuse the overtime, wouldn't it cause the company to bring the days back to 16 sooner? Seems like those that beg for the overtime (not the ones stuck in the boonies and get OT because of it), are hurting not only those on the street, but the rest of the crew that could use the extra income that 16 days brought them. That's the point that has people irritated.

As for our overtime seeking friend, we ALL know who he is. IMO, he is just the type that brought this country to its knees, way, way over his head with no fiscal responsibility. I wouldn't trust him to manage a kids tricycle, I can't believe the company flips him the keys to a Challenger.

That's my take on it.

Hung

 

[hammer2]

Remember the days when we were asking for less work? I enjoy not working 221 days a year!

 

[Club ORD FO]

Yeah me too. I'd rather keep it at 14

 

[notapilot]

Hung I deleted it because I decided that I no longer wanted to participate in this thread. We all have personal opinions and it is not worth arguing any particular point on here. I do agree with you though.