Looks like CAL/UAL MECs want the RJs

[Yuppyguppy]

Scope is number 1....get it NUMBER F'ing ONE!!! WE WILL GET BACK OUR FLYING. PERIOD. The days of the 50 are over. The days of farming out flying are over! About damn time.

 

[glasspilot]

That's a nice thought yuppuguppy. Are you willing to fly it for the rates? Back in the day when the 50 seat RJs were just a dream for the regionals the majors turned their nose up at them due to two things;

1: they put the word "regional" right there in the name. It was easy for management to say, "you don't want to fly those...they're Regional Jets!!!"

2: the contracts at the majors at the time said point blank that no FO could ever make more than the most junior Captain. Well that was a deal breaker right there as an RJ doesn't support left seat pay above 747 senior Fo. Sooo, ya gonna let Captains make less than FOs?

I'm currious, really.

 

[General Lee]

That's a nice thought yuppuguppy. Are you willing to fly it for the rates? Back in the day when the 50 seat RJs were just a dream for the regionals the majors turned their nose up at them due to two things;

1: they put the word "regional" right there in the name. It was easy for management to say, "you don't want to fly those...they're Regional Jets!!!"

2: the contracts at the majors at the time said point blank that no FO could ever make more than the most junior Captain. Well that was a deal breaker right there as an RJ doesn't support left seat pay above 747 senior Fo. Sooo, ya gonna let Captains make less than FOs?

I'm currious, really.

Since there is currently stagnation at the regionals thanks to lack of hiring at the Legacies and some LCCs, all you have to do is see what the CURRENT average rate is among senior Regional pilots flying these planes. It's not $40 an hour for Captains these days, probably closer to $60 or $70 an hour for 50 seaters (longevity at regionals has increased), and maybe $85-90 an hour for E175s and CR9s. I think most Major Airline pilots would take those CURRENT rates as a base for a new contract. Also, many airlines allow their furloughed pilots to come back at the accrued year of longevity for the entire furlough---for example if a UAL guy went out at year two---and came back 4 years later, he would be at year 6 for pay. I know UAL doesn't do that right now, but DL does, and CAL/UAL will demand it no doubt. So again, the pay rates wouldn't be that low. And with retirements scheduled at hundreds per year at UAL and CAL coming up (remember, both of those airlines have had very little retirements so far, and have tons of old guys), people will move up the ladder quickly regardless.

So, glasspilot, I think they might have a plan, and it includes retirments of RJs, retirements of RJ contracts with UAL/CAL, and retirements of old pilots. I also think I know what yuppy's answer would be....(same as mine)



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[glasspilot]

So you're saying the whole plan behind relaxing the scope to allow the regionals jets was to move the average pay from $50 to $80?

And now that it's there, coupled with massive retirements, it's time to shut the regionals down and take back that flying?

 

[atlcrashpad]

Regionals aint gwoin' no-wheres.... Mainline Managemints don't want mo mainline pylits... they need Regionals jus in case they need to loadshed some expense....

 

[contrail67]

In the end, 50 seaters will not even be here...70's will be the smallest RJ anyway.

Basically, when you are hired..you start on the 70 seater and move your way up.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Cute plan. If a staple is involved, then great, but I don't think you'll see any of these airplanes goin over to mainline soon. If anything it'll be some new C series or something on the order of 100+ seats. Anything less than that will remain at the regionals unless you're planning on a seniority list staple.

 

[WayBack]

They're about 18yrs too late.
But let them have them, you think management is going to let those mainline guys fly them for more than what the regional guys are? Oh wait, ALPA will get you the pay and respect you need.
Now just line up behind the Aloha, ATA, Midwest.....and all the other defuct ALPA pilot groups.

 

[Flyerdan]

In the end, 50 seaters will not even be here...70's will be the smallest RJ anyway.

Basically, when you are hired..you start on the 70 seater and move your way up.

That doesn't make sense to me. What do you do with the routes that won't support a 70 seat airplane. There are many routes that are currently flown by a 30 seater because they won't support a 50 seat airplane.

Also, I think it is more likely that regionals are getting ready to morph into code share partners instead of just being vendors that provide feed. Is that covered in scope? Republic is the perfect example right now. As a code share partner they could put an E145 to an E175, to possibly an Airbus on a route. That may be the future.

 

[WayBack]

Scope is number 1....get it NUMBER F'ing ONE!!! WE WILL GET BACK OUR FLYING. PERIOD. The days of the 50 are over. The days of farming out flying are over! About damn time.

In the world of reality, no you wont. It will only get worse.

In your little pipe dream, sure ok. But you will be getting paid regional wages, HAHAHAH!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

You's guys just don't get it. You will get your scope, just as soon as the attorneys at Ford & Harrison figure a way to redirect your flying as Mgmt wants. It will be codeshare, bla bla bla, or some other newly invented way to get around what ever you think you prevented.This is about having the ability to reset your payscale without a strike, check out Comair, I will bet there will be 70-80% of their guys lined up to get jobs at some other airline. Believe this, as long as we as a group are divided, we are conquered, and the regional concept does this nicely. We all are reacting and the managers at the airlines are pulling the strings.
Sorry
PBR

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Mainline is the Landlord, Regionals are renters. When you realize that, you will understand why the regionals are not a career, it is a job. Leases expire, things change, the Landlord is healthy again!

Yogi

 

[WayBack]

Mainline is the Landlord, Regionals are renters. When you realize that, you will understand why the regionals are not a career, it is a job. Leases expire, things change, the Landlord is healthy again!

Yogi

And with out renters, the landlord is stuck with a empty apartment having to cover all the bills himself. He will only lower the rent to compete with the other apartments in the area, to get the renters back in his apartments.

 

[Whydoitry]

The only way that the flying goes back to CAL/UAL is if the cost of doing it is below that of the outsourcing. To do that the rates would probably have to be well below what the regionals are doing it for because of the other benefits that CAL/UAL have. Not only that, but CAL/UAL won't finance any new aircraft for their regionals, so there would have to be a cost assigned to that, as well as all those training costs. I think it can be done, but it will be at a great expense to the pilot contract.

 

[Bako Cap]

It is interesting that CAL is signing a 10 year contract with SkyWest to fly these 50 seaters as part of their buying ExpressJet. Taking back scope is going to take 10 years at the new UAL. We all have plenty of time to beat each other up on FI.

 

[nimtz]

It is interesting that CAL is signing a 10 year contract with SkyWest to fly these 50 seaters as part of their buying ExpressJet. Taking back scope is going to take 10 years at the new UAL. We all have plenty of time to beat each other up on FI.

Did you expect management to be sacred by a press release during negotiations? I don't give two sh!ts if CAL wants to keep 50 seaters around for 10 more years. Bring that on, cause oil will go back to $90/barrel before it goes to $40/barrel.

The issue lies with anything bigger then 50 and that's where things have to wind down. Yes it will take a long time, but our profession will be a lot better off for it. Sorry that inconveniences all you 35+ year old career RJ captains.

 

[Mr.B]

I don't remember the same consideration when all the 727 737 DC 10 were being parked and the 700's and E170's were showing up in droves. I lost my seat pay and was offered $19 if I wanted to continue flying!

Yep.

And, did you ever check out those "Guppy Killer" stickers in ORD? Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Hey 50-70 seat RJ drivers...your days are numbered

 

[Oakum_Boy]

More chest pounding from the apes who failed to protect the flying. This is puruHe posturing and nothing will go down like you hope it too..in fact, bring it on! I'll fly your turd 320 for hmm.. Lets say 110 an hour year 12 pay. I'd say this is how things are going to go and I am ready to do what's necessary including severely underbidding you on every piece of equip out there..

 

[dooork]

More chest pounding from the apes who failed to protect the flying. This is puruHe posturing and nothing will go down like you hope it too..in fact, bring it on! I'll fly your turd 320 for hmm.. Lets say 110 an hour year 12 pay. I'd say this is how things are going to go and I am ready to do what's necessary including severely underbidding you on every piece of equip out there..

Spoken like a true ASAhole.

 

[Jetjockey]

More chest pounding from the apes who failed to protect the flying. This is puruHe posturing and nothing will go down like you hope it too..in fact, bring it on! I'll fly your turd 320 for hmm.. Lets say 110 an hour year 12 pay. I'd say this is how things are going to go and I am ready to do what's necessary including severely underbidding you on every piece of equip out there..

Can't get hired at major bud????

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The fact remains, pilots didn't buy any RJ's, your management did with your permission and now you want them back. Many of us didn't go to the regionals for a career, just to get enough time in a 30 seat prop plane so we could. Then scope was loosened, then 9/11, then the BK's and multi-year furloughs. I didn't put my life on hold, frankly my age won't let me anymore. So one threat begets another ridiculous post to illustrate the point. Get over it. Your and my "union" failed to see the damage that would be caused to our collective careers. So, while I continue to live my life and do what I have to to pay the bills, I just wanted to follow up on all the threats from bitter mainline pilots by posting my own ridiculous post above. Lose my job or not, it won't be the end of my world, but it sounds like you would be gleeful; something none of my contemporaries I associate with really ever were.

 

[nimtz]

The fact remains, pilots didn't buy any RJ's, your management did with your permission and now you want them back. Many of us didn't go to the regionals for a career, just to get enough time in a 30 seat prop plane so we could. Then scope was loosened, then 9/11, then the BK's and multi-year furloughs. I didn't put my life on hold, frankly my age won't let me anymore. So one threat begets another ridiculous post to illustrate the point. Get over it. Your and my "union" failed to see the damage that would be caused to our collective careers. So, while I continue to live my life and do what I have to to pay the bills, I just wanted to follow up on all the threats from bitter mainline pilots by posting my own ridiculous post above. Lose my job or not, it won't be the end of my world, but it sounds like you would be gleeful; something none of my contemporaries I associate with really ever were.

Better keep lowering them standards and boosting that productivity. Nothing more worthless to bean counters then a topped out RJ captain. My heart really pings for you listing all the misfortunes of the last 10 years. You know the same ones that thousands of us have had to deal with.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Did you mean your heart pines for me? How nice. Do you have an English proficiency endorsement?

 

[nimtz]

Did you mean your heart pines for me? How nice. Do you have an English proficiency endorsement?

Tough stuff from a guy who has so mastered life. Sorry ya' didn't get laid in high school...

 

[sniper]

More chest pounding from the apes who failed to protect the flying. This is puruHe posturing and nothing will go down like you hope it too..in fact, bring it on! I'll fly your turd 320 for hmm.. Lets say 110 an hour year 12 pay. I'd say this is how things are going to go and I am ready to do what's necessary including severely underbidding you on every piece of equip out there..

Wrong thinking and I hope your management does not get this statement.

 

[WayBack]

Hey 50-70 seat RJ drivers...your days are numbered

I know, and it's a shame.....isn't it? But hey, it's managements choice to ditch the smaller regional jets and give them the bigger ones. All to fly mainline routes. Isnt that awesome?!
Those regional ALPA dudes will be taking mainline ALPA dudes flying, dude! Even more than they're flying now, dude!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Mainline is the Landlord, Regionals are renters. When you realize that, you will understand why the regionals are not a career, it is a job. Leases expire, things change, the Landlord is healthy again!

Yogi

You are exactly right, 'cept the landlord doesn't want to sell/lease, renting gives them the control that they crave, the ability to evict the tenants(regionals and their pilots) as soon as the legally want/can. If you think they will willingly cede this control, good luck.
PBR

 

[General Lee]

The only way that the flying goes back to CAL/UAL is if the cost of doing it is below that of the outsourcing. To do that the rates would probably have to be well below what the regionals are doing it for because of the other benefits that CAL/UAL have. Not only that, but CAL/UAL won't finance any new aircraft for their regionals, so there would have to be a cost assigned to that, as well as all those training costs. I think it can be done, but it will be at a great expense to the pilot contract.

Thanks to stagnation at the regionals, regional pilot pay has increased over the years, and many of the Captains are making ok money at the top of the regionals. So, if the mainline pilots stick with those current wages, it shouldn't cost anymore, right? You don't have to start over at $40 an hour for Captain rates. Start the 70 seat Capt rates at $80 an hour (what they are currently at most regionals flying 70 or 76 seaters), and furloughed pilots will flock back to those planes. At the same time, the Legacies could then monitor the training programs and keep them in check, which has also turned into a litigation issue thanks to the Colgan crash. It will be more expensive for legacies to have to pay for another couple crashes at the Regionals if proposed legislation is enacted and they are allowed to be sued also along with the Regional itself.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You are exactly right, 'cept the landlord doesn't want to sell/lease, renting gives them the control that they crave, the ability to evict the tenants(regionals and their pilots) as soon as the legally want/can. If you think they will willingly cede this control, good luck.
PBR

Willingly? Do you really think the CAL/UAL management has a choice right now? They are in the corner, if they want their huge merger bonuses. Wall St wants a CLEAN and SMOOTH merger, and they run the show, not Airline Management. They are told what to do by the Hedge funds. The union finally has some leverage, and thanks to the Colgan crash they also have some ammo on the legislative side, which has thrown a bunch of landmines too. If there was ever a good time for MECs to come together and push for taking some of the flying back, the time is NOW. And, I can see why you are nervous about that. I am sure all of the Mike Boyd comments don't help either, since he is mirroring what the public is saying too. Even RA at DL stated on his last phone message(supposedly ) to the troops that he is making the push to continue to get rid of RJs. Hey, you know like I know that the rise of the RJ was just too quick.....



Bye Bye--General Lee