Looks like CAL/UAL MECs want the RJs

[nimtz]

Thinking small my friend. Thinking small. Your solution won't work.

And the odds of yours happening are about as likely as The Mets playing .800 ball in September...

 

[General Lee]

Can you guys step back and look at what were doing here.

- Current Bottom line: most regional flying is 50 seaters
- Fact: 50 seaters are driving the bean counters nuts due to limited
economics
- Fact: 70 seater economics only marginally better
- Bean counter wet dream: bigger 'RJ' to replace every small 73 and
A319

That is what is we want stopped. No rational person expects us to get the new UAL to park all of it's regional feed tomorrow. What we are doing is letting the economics of the airframes take care of that problem over the years. So when those contracts run out years from now, most likely Uncle Jerry will have to send them to Cambodia.

Management wants us to get in line with previous practice of not flying anything made by Bombardier or Embrarer. Those days are done. Senior down to junior pilots have been f*cked by that line of thinking too many times. CO/UA pilots will do what we have to do to ensure that the last mad decade of regional growth will NEVER happen again.

As for the regionals, it's already playing out. Margins are tightening and costs are trending up. What's the solution, mergers. That will put a bandaid on the problem for maybe five-seven years. Nevertheless, Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford will not have the golden growth ticket of 70+ seats that they need to grow in the long term. After all regionals don't do well if they are stagnant, that's why your bosses are always liking boots trying to get more 'upgrades'.

Keep your CRJ '9' for the years ahead, but don't expect to be there in 10 years. Sh!t I never thought that about the EMB-135's I flew left seat in. And based on that, I don't shed a tear for you guys who are scolding us for wanting to drag this profession out of the gutter...

Very well stated. The Regional guys have watched larger planes being brought to them thanks to legacy bankruptcies, and all the while KNOWING this was wrong. Jerry from SkyWest and the Rev from Republic are counting on Scope dwindling so they can take on the next stage of larger RJs and possibly 100 seaters, but unfortunately for them the legacies are now in an upswing financially, which gives the unions more say and less BK judge intervention. It's time to remold scope boys and girls, and bring some of the 76 seaters over to the mainline side, and keep everything larger, including the 100 seater that will be coming eventually.

To all of those 76 seat Captains looking to extend their free ride to larger planes without the interview at a major to do so, welcome to the real world. (Joe Merchant and Ohplease!) It will be interesting to see how this pans out for the UAL/CAL pilots. If something does stick, it will then happen at the other legacies as well most likely. And someone said that this might have been mentioned already at a newhire class at DL---something about DL wanting to fly 76 seaters at mainline since they already own some of the planes.

Something good out of this could be eventually more jobs for regional guys to interview for at the majors, after the furloughed pilots are offered jobs back first of course! Get the popcorn ready, and again thanks to the CAL/UAL MECs for finally bringing this to the table. Stay strong guys!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Ad Lib]

Can you guys step back and look at what were doing here.

- Current Bottom line: most regional flying is 50 seaters
- Fact: 50 seaters are driving the bean counters nuts due to limited
economics
- Fact: 70 seater economics only marginally better
- Bean counter wet dream: bigger 'RJ' to replace every small 73 and
A319

As for the regionals, it's already playing out. Margins are tightening and costs are trending up. What's the solution, mergers. That will put a bandaid on the problem for maybe five-seven years. Nevertheless, Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford will not have the golden growth ticket of 70+ seats that they need to grow in the long term. After all regionals don't do well if they are stagnant, that's why your bosses are always liking boots trying to get more 'upgrades'.

Keep your CRJ '9' for the years ahead, but don't expect to be there in 10 years. Sh!t I never thought that about the EMB-135's I flew left seat in. And based on that, I don't shed a tear for you guys who are scolding us for wanting to drag this profession out of the gutter...

Most of what you write is correct, but the economics of the 70 to 90 seat RJ platforms are TONS better than the 50 seaters. For a start, the 70 seater carries nearly half again more revenue (40%) and is less operationally limited. The 76 seater (with First Class) ideally carries nearly twice the revenue at a similar operational cost of the 50 seater.

The difference puts the large RJ platform into the CASM which makes it a viable replacement for mainline equipment and that is what it has been employed to do.

You are correct the battle is moving to the C Series and a 100 seat scope limit. I believe the UAL/CO position is an opener, which hopes to move the battle front closer to their position than starting at 70 seats and conceding more outsourcing from there.

Given the number of furloughs at the mainline carrier, they have to focus on job protection provisions in this merger. The Delta pilots had the luxury of not having to do their merger with pilots involuntarily on the street.

 

[whymeworry?]

Who's going to fly the 600 RJ's? All new hires? Right, that will work! Why do all these mainline guys want the Regional guys to lose their jobs? I literally feed my family with the money I earn as a Regional Capt. I would lose my home and car as well as most of my belongings if my company disappeared and I had to apply as a first year RJ FO at a major (or possibly Capt if enough positions were available, etc. But at first year pay) How is this good for many people? You guys at the major are flying big airplanes for more money now, but you want a safety net at my expense!! Now, if lists were integrated and people kept their seats at the "new major" then that is different. Why wouldn't you guys like that?

First of all, we're getting rid of the B-scale. So the days of 1st yr pay at $30- $36,000/ yr are over. It will be closer to $55-60,000 starting once our contract is signed (though I admit that is still a B-scale wage), which means you could do $75-85,000 first year with o/t and rigs once new contract is in play.

Second, 1st yr pay is just that... 1st yr. It ramps up pretty quickly thereafter. Sure it's a hit to downgrade your lifestyle for that first year, but it's certainly doable and that first year goes by quick... so do the 2nd and 3rd. Thousands upon thousands of pilots have done it before you.

Too many RJ drivers focus in on that year-1 pay. Whereas you're looking at 20-25 years beyond that if you're in your late 30s to early 40s and still at a regional.

So you sell your car, rent out your house, scale back. It's only for a short period then you'll be making more money than an RJ Captain and working far less... and you know what? You pay will go up every year for the next 12 yrs in the worst-case scenario that you don't upgrade.

The problem I had with staying at a regional was that I had pretty much maxed out on pay. Sure it would go up a couple of bucks a year, but hardly enough to compete with the longer-term projection of a major career.

I took some HUGE (I mean frigging HUGE) hits to scale back and come to a major. But I have no regrets. It's simply a different industry altogether.

But don't bother telling any of this to Pocono Pilot. She has all the answers. Better follow her advice instead.

 

[ohplease!]

Very well stated. The Regional guys have watched larger planes being brought to them thanks to legacy bankruptcies, and all the while KNOWING this was wrong. Jerry from SkyWest and the Rev from Republic are counting on Scope dwindling so they can take on the next stage of larger RJs and possibly 100 seaters, but unfortunately for them the legacies are now in an upswing financially, which gives the unions more say and less BK judge intervention. It's time to remold scope boys and girls, and bring some of the 76 seaters over to the mainline side, and keep everything larger, including the 100 seater that will be coming eventually.

To all of those 76 seat Captains looking to extend their free ride to larger planes without the interview at a major to do so, welcome to the real world. (Joe Merchant and Ohplease!) It will be interesting to see how this pans out for the UAL/CAL pilots. If something does stick, it will then happen at the other legacies as well most likely. And someone said that this might have been mentioned already at a newhire class at DL---something about DL wanting to fly 76 seaters at mainline since they already own some of the planes.

Something good out of this could be eventually more jobs for regional guys to interview for at the majors, after the furloughed pilots are offered jobs back first of course! Get the popcorn ready, and again thanks to the CAL/UAL MECs for finally bringing this to the table. Stay strong guys!


Bye Bye--General Lee

don't get me wrong there general....let me make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to you that the last thing on my bucket list is to end up flying with the likes of you. Although I realize there are 14000 or so at"delta", the chance of spending hours next to some of you is enough to send me into another career altogether.

Have no fear, I have other opportunities in hand as this industry/economy start back the other way... Can't speak for Joe or others.

That being said, you are dead wrong about your predictions...

I'm just sayin'

 

[ASA Captain]

"KNOWING this was wrong"

Get off your high horse and put down that tube of glue you've been sniffing. You gave it up. Remember United + 1%. I do. That's when we got an order of 400 between ASA/CMR. When you guys ended up in bankruptcy or trying to stay out of it you gave up more, by force or by choice.

You could have, at any time in the past, secured brand scope. You could have stomped your feet, made it the #1 issue. But it wasn't.

Don't try to pretend that we or the guy sitting in your right seat had anything to do with this mess.

Look in the mirror.

 

[General Lee]

don't get me wrong there general....let me make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to you that the last thing on my bucket list is to end up flying with the likes of you. Although I realize there are 14000 or so at"delta", the chance of spending hours next to some of you is enough to send me into another career altogether.

Have no fear, I have other opportunities in hand as this industry/economy start back the other way... Can't speak for Joe or others.

That being said, you are dead wrong about your predictions...

I'm just sayin'

Dead wrong, eh? You hope so. The days of RJs ruling the skies are OVER. 50 seaters and smaller are starting to go to the boneyards. The FAA mandates new hiring rules that will be in effect within the next few years, making your part of the industry more expensive (won't be able to find 200 Hour Empty Nipple jet driver wannabees to do it for nothing). New rest and fatigue rules that will again make you less efficient thanks to continuous duty overnights most likely going away and restrictions on number of legs per day. Legacy MECs wanting their flying BACK, something you have NO control over. I'm telling you, it's not looking great for you and Joe Merchant in the future if you stay at the likes of ASA. Jerry in St George can slam his hands on the table all he wants, but that won't make the mainline unions budge at all. It will only get tougher for you guys, but the good thing is you all MAY have the ability to get an interview for the RIGHT seat of a 70 seat RJ at a legacy. But, both you and Joe will probably flunk the psych tests. So, no need to worry about flying with me, and if you are a ramper and look thirsty, I MAY throw you a small Dasani water from the Captain window to the ramp below. But drink it fast, you still have a lot of bags to load.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

"KNOWING this was wrong"

Get off your high horse and put down that tube of glue you've been sniffing. You gave it up. Remember United + 1%. I do. That's when we got an order of 400 between ASA/CMR. When you guys ended up in bankruptcy or trying to stay out of it you gave up more, by force or by choice.

You could have, at any time in the past, secured brand scope. You could have stomped your feet, made it the #1 issue. But it wasn't.

Don't try to pretend that we or the guy sitting in your right seat had anything to do with this mess.

Look in the mirror.

A lot of your senior Captains that couldn't get hired anywhere else thanks to DUIs, lack of college, FAA violations, or just laziness (Joe and Ohpleae!) loved the fact that planes were getting bigger, without them having to interview anywhere (they knew they could not or would not be hired anyway). A few years before mainline BKs, there were hardly any jets over 50 seats (excepts some Bae146s at ASA and some Avros at Mesaba), and mostly props. That has now given way to many CR9s, E175s, etc---all thanks to BK. Well, that needs to change, and hopefully it will. The CAL and UAL MECs know they have UAL/CAL in a corner, since management wants a Single Operating Certificate ASAP for Wall St. and their own big bonuses. With the MECs coming out right away demanding change in a public way, I think they mean business, which isn't good for the Regionals.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[buscap]

Very well stated. The Regional guys have watched larger planes being brought to them thanks to legacy bankruptcies, and all the while KNOWING this was wrong. Jerry from SkyWest and the Rev from Republic are counting on Scope dwindling so they can take on the next stage of larger RJs and possibly 100 seaters, but unfortunately for them the legacies are now in an upswing financially, which gives the unions more say and less BK judge intervention. It's time to remold scope boys and girls, and bring some of the 76 seaters over to the mainline side, and keep everything larger, including the 100 seater that will be coming eventually.

To all of those 76 seat Captains looking to extend their free ride to larger planes without the interview at a major to do so, welcome to the real world. (Joe Merchant and Ohplease!) It will be interesting to see how this pans out for the UAL/CAL pilots. If something does stick, it will then happen at the other legacies as well most likely. And someone said that this might have been mentioned already at a newhire class at DL---something about DL wanting to fly 76 seaters at mainline since they already own some of the planes.

Something good out of this could be eventually more jobs for regional guys to interview for at the majors, after the furloughed pilots are offered jobs back first of course! Get the popcorn ready, and again thanks to the CAL/UAL MECs for finally bringing this to the table. Stay strong guys!


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, for once I'm not going to start my rebuttal with an insult, though your eyes are too close together and highly deserving derision.

But I will once again point out the need for you to read my previous posts. My solution will work, it simply is more difficult.

But something we have all ignored in this, is that crew costs are not the only cost gap between mainline and regional. All our costs have been driven down from dispatch, to mechanics, to cabin crews.

All or nothing is the only thing which will keep your career expectations safe. Continental mainline has the tightest scope in the industry and it has gotten them where? You've got to get the 50 seat jets and props on property.

Further-your reference to 76 pilots leads me to believe that is where you draw the line. Clearly a case of shiny jet syndrome. That ailment will eventually lead to another case of regional cancer in the future.

All or nothing, sir. All or nothing.

Have the fortitude to strike for all the flying or quit whining about RJs.:beer:

 

[ASA Captain]

A lot of your senior Captains that couldn't get hired anywhere else thanks to DUIs, lack of college, FAA violations, or just laziness (Joe and Ohpleae!) loved the fact that planes were getting bigger, without them having to interview anywhere (they knew they could not or would not be hired anyway). A few years before mainline BKs, there were hardly any jets over 50 seats (excepts some Bae146s at ASA and some Avros at Mesaba), and mostly props. That has now given way to many CR9s, E175s, etc---all thanks to BK. Well, that needs to change, and hopefully it will. The CAL and UAL MECs know they have UAL/CAL in a corner, since management wants a Single Operating Certificate ASAP for Wall St. and their own big bonuses. With the MECs coming out right away demanding change in a public way, I think they mean business, which isn't good for the Regionals.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What a turd.

You know very well, not that you would bother being intellectually honest, that some stay for other reasons. Some for QOL. Some for family reasons. Some tried and failed, but most are of more character than you will ever be.

I am sure your group has it's own share of DUI, nuts, and plain tools, present company included. To deny this is to show your lack of integrity.

As to the BK being the reasons for all the small jet growth, well that is just as dishonest. I don't know where you work, nor do I care. But every mainline carrier, save SWA, gave up scope for money.

In every bankruptcy case, the judges put you under the gun. They took away your ability to strike, but you got to negotiate for what you got. You chose your poison and scope was not it.

But the aircraft that started this all was well before BK courts. Well before 9/11.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2000/05/01/65188/coming-of-age.html

Let's not try to deny history and point fingers at those who did nothing to start this. Point fingers instead at those who sold out the profession because of greed, arrogance, and shortsightedness.

Now that this falsehood has been put to rest, if you want to scope the RJ, you might want to open your checkbook.

I propose to put your ego aside and work with the regional, oh wait that's right we are a Major thank you, MECs so that it won't cost as much to re-scope the RJ. You obviously don't need to buy them from us, you will have to buy it at the table, but we can help accelerate this and save some of your negotiating chips for other things.

We at ASA have done a good job of supporting the profession, keeping the floor under you as high as we could get it.

United we stand, divided we fall. You should think about it, honestly.