Looks like CAL/UAL MECs want the RJs

[PBRstreetgang]

PBR,

WRONG. It is all about what is NEGOTIATED. If Dalpa wanted to fly all 50 seaters, they could negotiate that. IF they wanted to only fly 744s and furlough everyone else (not a popular one I bet), then it could be negotiated. Everything is on the table when negotiated. You guys at SkyWest don't know about that since you don't have a normal union, but rather one that is infultrated by management people. Really, it is the union's flying if it is negotiated that way. I don't know how many more times I have to state it for you. It might be costly to negotiate, but that is how it works. A Legacy doesn't have to deal with the groups from it's connection partners, but eventually they have to deal with their own pilots.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Genny,
You continue to make my point, you are right the flying is "yours" while the contract is in force and until amended.

I will ask one more time, HOW MUCH ARE YOU PERSONALLY WILLING TO PAY TO GET THE RJ FLYING. Dot, period, how much per hour in pay or benefits? 10.00 per hour? One day less off per month, how much, you want it, they know it, and its all about bargaining. How much will your 777/747 guys pony up?

You know I work at SKYW, I am pretty sure I know as much about their strengths and shortcomings from the inside as you do and I am sure you know as much about working there as I know about working at DAL.

I am old enough to know about business and the economy, so the lack of real world experience that the guys I work with is telling. I have negotiated contracts and had them legally enforced in court. There is a real disconnect between pilots today and the real world of business as practiced by their employers. There is no "we" in business, there is the business owners and the employees, each has very separate agendas. The very pilots you disparage will soon be your F/Os, because the FAA issued very few Commercial Certificates last year and if you look at major airline planned retirement matrix compared to pilot certificate issuance there is gonna be a choke point downstream, and you might ask how will they fill the void. AbIntro is less than 10 years away, look at UAL in the '60s.
PBR

 

[General Lee]

Genny,
You continue to make my point, you are right the flying is "yours" while the contract is in force and until amended.

I will ask one more time, HOW MUCH ARE YOU PERSONALLY WILLING TO PAY TO GET THE RJ FLYING. Dot, period, how much per hour in pay or benefits? 10.00 per hour? One day less off per month, how much, you want it, they know it, and its all about bargaining. How much will your 777/747 guys pony up?

You know I work at SKYW, I am pretty sure I know as much about their strengths and shortcomings from the inside as you do and I am sure you know as much about working there as I know about working at DAL.

I am old enough to know about business and the economy, so the lack of real world experience that the guys I work with is telling. I have negotiated contracts and had them legally enforced in court. There is a real disconnect between pilots today and the real world of business as practiced by their employers. There is no "we" in business, there is the business owners and the employees, each has very separate agendas. The very pilots you disparage will soon be your F/Os, because the FAA issued very few Commercial Certificates last year and if you look at major airline planned retirement matrix compared to pilot certificate issuance there is gonna be a choke point downstream, and you might ask how will they fill the void. AbIntro is less than 10 years away, look at UAL in the '60s.
PBR

First off, luckily the RJ problem is partly taking care of itself as we speak. 50 seaters are becoming tin cans, and even RA announced this (supposedly ) on his latest phone message to the troops. So, half of the problem will be gone shortly. The rest needs to be looked at, and that is being done already by the UAL/CAL pilots. They are taking the initiative to get back some of that flying. How much would legacy pilots be willing to take to take back that flying? The CAL/UAL guys don't have to go below current market costs because their management is under a deadline with the Wall St people. They can demand whatever and if the management people want to get that elusive joint contract done before their own deadline, they will have to do it or risk the ire of the Hedge Funds who want that to go through NOW. So, we will have to see what the UAL/CAL guys offer to see what OTHER (wink wink) legacies will ask for during upcoming negotiations. You don't just throw out a number without seeing what the others are doing. The UAL/CAL guys are going first, and they have leverage.

But, I will try to answer a bit of what you were asking as just a guess on my part, and as you know I am not a negotiator (thank gawd). IF the economy is good and the airline is profitable, then it makes it tougher on the management follks to play poor. That is what happened when the DL/NWA joint contract went through----oil was at $130 a barrel at the time, which meant poor timing. The contract comes due in 2012, and that means the UAL/CAL stuff will be done by then. A certain MEC Chair (LM) has been very nice to management, playing the "let's all be profitable and be nice, so when it comes to contract time we are all nice AGAIN" card. Will that work? It had better, and other airline MECs are joining those ranks (UAL MEC lady, also new AA APA Pres). Work together, and reward each other....??? How much will the senior guys give up you ask? The top guys who fly only INTL may not care as much, but a lot of them also commute (DTW has 85% commuters), and guess what they have to commute on mostly? You got it, RJs. How do you think that makes them feel? All of the DL 744 pilots are based in DTW, but very few actually live there. Heck, as I said before, RA also agrees. But, the key point here is that the UAL and CAL MECs have taken the first step, and how they do will be copied at the rest of the legacies most likely.

Also, there have been hints of the majors maybe wanting some of that flying back anyway---at a recent DL newhire class the management folks supposedly stated to the newhires that they would LIKE to fly CR9s at mainline, since they already own some of those planes. Obviously it would be hard for mainline to just "take" RJs away from the regionals if they don't own them, so it would take time for any of this to happen anyway. But, sourcing new or used 70/76 seaters might not be that hard. Anyway, what would we be willing to give up in negotiations? Probably limited but a slight discount possibly (payscales for those planes are already out there), but as a group the mainline RJ operation would offer the legacy more oversight into their new RJ operation with regards to training, and actual product enhancement on those planes that they may not be getting with the current regionals. Air Canada flies E175s with mainline pilots, so it can be done. And something you have forgotten that really could put a dent in your own Regional profits---the new FAA hiring requirements and fatigue and rest rules. Your lower costs are gonna rise. You ask about what benefit cuts or cost cuts the legacy pilots would take to lower down to your current level, but at the same time your level is rising thanks to new laws and mandates from the Gov't. Having legacy pilots do the flying will probably be a wash with the costs, but the legacies will have the ability to monitor the flying (for their own brand) more closely.

There is a problem with these huge RJ operators---they are using money (profits) from the legacy partner to COMPETE against that same legacy partner. Delta uses Repulic Airways E175s, E145s (CHQ), etc, but a lot of those profits are funnelled into Frontier Airlines, to compete directly with Delta and the others. That is what has to stop. I think the legacies are starting to see that, and by bringing their own RJs into the mix, they can keep some of that money away from the competitors, and since the legacy is doing better financially, the unions won't allow extra outsourcing. That plus the litigation factor thanks to the Colgan crash, has created fresh thoughts in the collective managements' ears. They are thinking now "get rid of uneconomical 50 seaters, and start bringing the larger RJs inhouse. Get control over your assets. The Unions will fly those if needed." And what will the pay be? Probably close to current market rates, and some airlines already have the payscales for those types. (DL) That is how I see it.

And I will gladly welcome every Regional guy that gets hired at my legacy, and I will be reminded of how much better their lives have gotten often as I see them through the years. They will state "my life really is better now at XXXXX", and I will say "You Betcha! Now, go do the walkaround! "


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Hvy]

We only want a/c with more than 50 seats. You can fly the rest.

Something you seem to forget...the reason you even have a job flying is to support the major airlines. It's not the other way around. That being said, wouldn't you want the opportunity to fly for a major? An increase in our flying is an increase in your opportunity to get here.

 

[General Lee]

We only want a/c with more than 50 seats. You can fly the rest.

Something you seem to forget...the reason you even have a job flying is to support the major airlines. It's not the other way around. That being said, wouldn't you want the opportunity to fly for a major? An increase in our flying is an increase in your opportunity to get here.

The Comair guys thought the opposite. That's all I heard after 9-11 from those guys---"We are saving your butz!" Yeah, riiight.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[79%N1]

Because a lot of guys are making 80,000-100,000 with weekends and holidays off and live in base or have commutable schedules with the time they put in at their regional. Some don't want to go fly at a major - especially in a plane they already fly - and go to first year pay and the least seniority spots. Flame that if you want, but it is true. Spare me the dissertation on how you own us, and we should be thankful for the scraps you send us. i'm just answering your question of why some don't want to go fly an RJ at the Majors.

 

[bizicmo]

Because a lot of guys are making 80,000-100,000 with weekends and holidays off and live in base or have commutable schedules with the time they put in at their regional. Some don't want to go fly at a major - especially in a plane they already fly - and go to first year pay and the least seniority spots. Flame that if you want, but it is true. Spare me the dissertation on how you own us, and we should be thankful for the scraps you send us. i'm just answering your question of why some don't want to go fly an RJ at the Majors.

Then stay at your regional. No one will force you to go to a major.

 

[General Lee]

Because a lot of guys are making 80,000-100,000 with weekends and holidays off and live in base or have commutable schedules with the time they put in at their regional. Some don't want to go fly at a major - especially in a plane they already fly - and go to first year pay and the least seniority spots. Flame that if you want, but it is true. Spare me the dissertation on how you own us, and we should be thankful for the scraps you send us. i'm just answering your question of why some don't want to go fly an RJ at the Majors.

That may not be the case very much longer. As scope gets tighter and and 50 seaters continue to go away, regionals will start to shrink. Fewer and fewer Regional pilots will be able to make that kind of dough most likely. Also, first year pay has risen at some legacies, and getting on early could mean the difference of being a line holder or reserve within the first year. I think the main opposition a lot of these senior RJ Captains have is leaving the left seat and learning to take orders again. (or even a walkaround) That will change, probably. And do they really think they will ALWAYS fly an RJ at the Majors? Really? They won't move up? Sounds like they are afraid to try anything new.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[79%N1]

What I'm saying, fellas, is that it would suck for many guys making $90/hr with their pick of schedules to go to say......United, and make $40/hr as an FO on the same RJ they used to fly! Moral arguements on who should fly the plane aside, I am giving you a REALITY! Most of those types of guys may have kids in College, mortgages, etc...
This is why it would be hard for some folks to make said switch. Leave the politics out for a second and think about the people before you pound your chests and say 'we're taking the flying and getting rid of you regional guys'. If you can't do that, then I do not want to have this, or any other discussion with you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What I'm saying, fellas, is that it would suck for many guys making $90/hr with their pick of schedules to go to say......United, and make $40/hr as an FO on the same RJ they used to fly! Moral arguements on who should fly the plane aside, I am giving you a REALITY! Most of those types of guys may have kids in College, mortgages, etc...
This is why it would be hard for some folks to make said switch. Leave the politics out for a second and think about the people before you pound your chests and say 'we're taking the flying and getting rid of you regional guys'. If you can't do that, then I do not want to have this, or any other discussion with you.

Said senior pilots who decided to stay at an vendor were making a choice... regionals compared to mainline isn't as stable for the long term...

Having said that, if a regional is ALPA, then those ALPA pilots should get some type of longevity (not seniority) credit if they come over....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The arrogance of these mainline pilots is astounding. But then again, it's really not. I've seen it on my jumpseat for the last 13 years. Let's just say it has been a major turnoff on going over to the "Big D". May have to rethink that, guys, 'cause it looks like they're intent on destroying what we've worked for. And spare me the 'it wasn't yours to begin with' crap.. It is and was, "ours". We negotiated the pay which is entirely liveable. Every time one of these Gen Lee creeps walks up and throws his bag behind my seat, I'm reminded why I never applied and why I'd probably never fit their "proflie".