Looking for Hawaiian A321 Pay Rates

[canyonblue]

Yes, I do want to work 12 days and get paid for 85 hours.. so sue me!

You just described my schedule at Southwest. I got hired here when everyone was going to AA, UA, DL, NWA and the rest. The main reason I wanted to work at Southwest, the schedule. If I have to give up a day of my life, then you have to make it worth it. I don't mind flying, I am actually a pilot, so if I had to fly over 6 hours in one day and in turn would get 18-19 days off a month, I had no problem with it. Working a schedule of 3 on 4 off does wonders for your life, then throw in 4-5 weeks of vacation every year, I agree, sue me!

 

[HA25]

You just described my schedule at Southwest. I got hired here when everyone was going to AA, UA, DL, NWA and the rest. The main reason I wanted to work at Southwest, the schedule. If I have to give up a day of my life, then you have to make it worth it. I don't mind flying, I am actually a pilot, so if I had to fly over 6 hours in one day and in turn would get 18-19 days off a month, I had no problem with it. Working a schedule of 3 on 4 off does wonders for your life, then throw in 4-5 weeks of vacation every year, I agree, sue me!

you're able to credit 7 hours a day without working your arse off? 14 hour duty days, etc? just curious, or are your rigs just that good?

3-4 off isn't hard to get, it's getting enough of them back to back to actually do something .. as for 4-5 weeks vacation, that is where we at HAL have A LOT of work to do.. our vacation, and training months schedule are a HUGE priority at the table in 2015... but recall we've had to rebuild from the ground up, with a lot of give backs over the years, unlike you guys who've seen profits year after year, thus no excuse for anything other than industry leading EVERYTHING.

 

[HowardBorden]

you're able to credit 7 hours a day without working your arse off? 14 hour duty days, etc? just curious, or are your rigs just that good?

3-4 off isn't hard to get, it's getting enough of them back to back to actually do something .. as for 4-5 weeks vacation, that is where we at HAL have A LOT of work to do.. our vacation, and training months schedule are a HUGE priority at the table in 2015... but recall we've had to rebuild from the ground up, with a lot of give backs over the years, unlike you guys who've seen profits year after year, thus no excuse for anything other than industry leading EVERYTHING.

Current lines at my base credit an average of 94.24TFP with an average day off total of 17.24 for the month. The highest value line credits 110.85TFP. Average Daily Guarantee is 6.5TFP, with a Duty Period Minimum of 5.0TFP.

We don't by any stretch lead EVERYTHING, but I believe we are still the highest paid narrow body group in the passenger industry with the highest day off totals. SWA is seriously lacking in retirement and reserve rules. However, those are two of the 3 targeted areas for improvement in section 6. The NC is pushing hard for a B fund and many critical areas lacking in the reserve rules are also being focused on.

 

[HA25]

Current lines at my base credit an average of 94.24TFP with an average day off total of 17.24 for the month. The highest value line credits 110.85TFP. Average Daily Guarantee is 6.5TFP, with a Duty Period Minimum of 5.0TFP.

quite frankly, that's VERY good... I saddens me that UAL/DAL and AA as well as most recently AK were asleep at the wheel when they negotiated their most recent contracts. They have rigs, but they're skeletons of what they had before during contract's 2000.. We at HAL, in our first post-BK contract got rigs very similar.. so once again, we're going to have to fix it ourselves for the Legacy's.

 

[Jim]

We at HAL, in our first post-BK contract got rigs very similar.. so once again, we're going to have to fix it ourselves for the Legacy's.

While I hope we can "fix it" in our next contract, sadly I don't think we will get anything near what you are hoping for. Too many pilots with brothers, sisters, Moms, Dads, Aunties, Uncles, etc. working in various places around the company. Too many pilots being just happy to have a great gig in the islands and too many pilots hearing their relatives bitch and moan about how the pilots are putting their jobs at risk for a strike to ever happen. Hopefully with all the new blood it will change and I'll be proved wrong.

We're a great airline providing a great QOL and paycheck. I love it here and wouldn't want to work any place else but I don't think we will ever match Delta's money or work rules.

 

[waveflyer]

Jim, with that post, now GK REALLY thinks your culture fits SWA

 

[HA25]

While I hope we can "fix it" in our next contract, sadly I don't think we will get anything near what you are hoping for. Too many pilots with brothers, sisters, Moms, Dads, Aunties, Uncles, etc. working in various places around the company. Too many pilots being just happy to have a great gig in the islands and too many pilots hearing their relatives bitch and moan about how the pilots are putting their jobs at risk for a strike to ever happen. Hopefully with all the new blood it will change and I'll be proved wrong.

We're a great airline providing a great QOL and paycheck. I love it here and wouldn't want to work any place else but I don't think we will ever match Delta's money or work rules.

There is much truth to what you say... sadly,in my relatively short time here, I've detected that some of our strengths are also some of our weaknesses. We gotta act more like the 85 year old Legacy Airline ALPA pilot group and less like kids who just got hired at their first airline job flying a Brazillia..

Have faith, I feel strongly about our negotiation team. If we can just be sure the rest of the 600+ are behind them..

 

[dicko]

They won't?

Then you understand what the air tran uproar was about.
AT wanted to be ahead of our 30 year guys bc their relative seniority puts them there

What a ridiculous statement. Anybody that proposed that at AirTran would have been laughed out of the room.

Are you still surprised at the universal lack of respect that SWA merger behavior has created amongst pilots from other airlines ? I bet you are. In fact, I bet you still think that it's not a reality. You actually thought that HAL pilots would rather be bought by SWA rather than Delta.

 

[madjack]

Oh brother

 

[waveflyer]

Do you want me to repost PCL's comments that propose exactly that?
"Worst case scenario is date of hire"- said by many on this board.
So we aren't to believe that an alpa execVP isn't representative of your group?
Why then do we always hear AT pilots cry about losing 30% seniority?
The only way to not is filter you relatively and that means exactly what I said above. Don't run from it now be you want internet emotional support from dan, Jim and the FI crowd.

As for your own spring loaded brand of SWA hateraid
Give it time dicko

You'll get this uniform on and slowly identify with your new reality. And then the comments out of left field will start from the SWA hater crowd. And you'll be...'whoa, I know all too we'll SWA ain't perfect...but that was out there'

Try and remember this is airline 6 for me and I'm hoping it lasts and like it- but I'm an industry guy. I don't pledge allegiance to canyon blue, just call things like I see them.

And yes, if I were Hawaiian, I'd rather SWA bought me than delta. Though delta would be next on the list if it had to go down. (I'd just be ready to see RJs on inter island )

 

[fr8doggie]

Watching LUV acquire another pilot group is like watching that prison show that used to be on Showtime. 'Oz'? Basically a brutal male-male rape. Muse Air, Morris Air, ATA, Frontier, AirTran. Step right up folks. Who's going to be next to feel the LUV?

 

[waveflyer]

Any Morris pilots on here still have heartburn?

How about Muse?

Frontier, really?

I got a half dozen friends still pissed their senior didn't let that one have a chance.

Ego/pride, or wise.

 

[canyonblue]

Are you still surprised at the universal lack of respect that SWA merger behavior has created amongst pilots from other airlines ?

I have friends at DAL, AA, UAL and they don't have any problems with it. In fact, when pilots at other airlines would ask me how our SLI went down, most our indeed shocked, shocked by the fact that we didn't even get stock along with the deal. I have yet to meet a pilot from another airline that has your point of view, and thats when I've been on their jumpseat.

 

[canyonblue]

Watching LUV acquire another pilot group is like watching that prison show that used to be on Showtime. 'Oz'? Basically a brutal male-male rape. Muse Air, Morris Air, ATA, Frontier, AirTran. Step right up folks. Who's going to be next to feel the LUV?

I think Alaska has frozen your brain.

 

[fr8doggie]

I think Alaska has frozen your brain.

Well, I'm heading for GUM tomorrow so maybe it will thaw out.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

 

[BentOver]

I'm beginning to realize General Lee may not have been totally at fault for many of the "General Lee vs. SWA guys" crap that has gone on here for many years....

 

[BentOver]

And yes, if I were Hawaiian, I'd rather SWA bought me than delta. Though delta would be next on the list if it had to go down. (I'd just be ready to see RJs on inter island )

Well, point of note, you're not Hawaiian. So what you'd rather see happen is inconsequential....

Second, you do realize (well maybe not) how many inter-island flights we run out here? Just OGG-HNL alone is in the neighborhood of 25 departures out of OGG just to HNL. That does not include to OGG to KOA, LIH or HTO... The skies would not be able to accomodate an equivalent number of RJ's to keep up with demand.. Nor would there be enough gate space...

OGG-HNL is most likely the most traveled city pairing in America.. As far as passenger counts I highly doubt the Delta/US shuttles between BOS-NYC-DCA are as much

 

[HowardBorden]

OGG-HNL is most likely the most traveled city pairing in America.. As far as passenger counts I highly doubt the Delta/US shuttles between BOS-NYC-DCA are as much

Holy cow, I read this and figured "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about." Then I looked it up and found 40 flights a day. I'm not sure if your assertion is correct or not but I sure can't think of a city pairing with more frequency.

 

[Dan Roman]

It used to be 3 of the top ten heaviest traveled routes in the U.S were inter-island. Not sure about now as their is a lot more direct flying to the outer islands. But thinking RJ's could do inter-island is ridiculous. Can't be done. Same as etops 737's can't do it for economic reasons. 717 is currently the best A/C for inter-island.

 

[HA25]

think about it fellas.. one state, made of 7+ parts separated by VERY deep water... no other way to move people other than jets... and mid sized jets work best.. cost/seat

 

[waveflyer]

Well, point of note, you're not Hawaiian. So what you'd rather see happen is inconsequential....

Second, you do realize (well maybe not) how many inter-island flights we run out here? Just OGG-HNL alone is in the neighborhood of 25 departures out of OGG just to HNL. That does not include to OGG to KOA, LIH or HTO... The skies would not be able to accomodate an equivalent number of RJ's to keep up with demand.. Nor would there be enough gate space...

OGG-HNL is most likely the most traveled city pairing in America.. As far as passenger counts I highly doubt the Delta/US shuttles between BOS-NYC-DCA are as much

More or less consequential than how you'd feel about it??

So I'll re-word-
Of all the acquisitions that might still be approved, I'd rather see Hawaiian than just about any other.
Not to be confused with hoping it happens- just that the others would suck worse and have more pilots.

That is interesting stuff though inter island- I knew there were lots of flights but I was thinking along the lines of OAK-LAX

impressive -

(But don't be naive about delta and RJ's - there's no room for them in a whole lot busier places than Hawaii )

 

[BentOver]

(But don't be naive about delta and RJ's - there's no room for them in a whole lot busier places than Hawaii )

Worked at Comair back in the pre-bankruptcy days....(And also the early stages of the beginning of the end when we started taking pay freezes and then pay cuts...I bailed early in that mess) I know full well the history of Delta and their 50 seater debacle...

The problem with our airpace (as opposed to say NYC) is throwing unlimited RJ's on basically two main routes into HNL.... basically everything inter-island comes in over two main fixes from the East or one fix from Lihue... there is simply not enough room.. In places like NYC you have many more arrival gates to transverse the airpace... Here it would be mayhem all day every day.. late flights, holding etc etc... see below

I don't believe even a 70 seater would work on our inter-island routes... Not quite enough ASM's and increasing to gain them would saturate the skies and gate space..PLUS OUR CONTRACT WON'T ALLOW IT... ANY MERGER WOULD TAKE PARTS OF OUR CONTRACT....YOU BETTER BELIEVE INTER-ISLAND SCOPE WOULD BE ONE OF THEM.....

I commute to OGG often, and it is difficult to find flights with 20 open seats. It does happen but not very often....

Plus what regional would be willing to come out here to start an operation? Regional pilot salary just won't cut it out here plain and simple unless you have ohana to stay with (unless a regional guy wants to commute 2500 miles and pay for a crashpad that costs as much as most apartments on the mainland..)

CHQ already tried with 170's.. Mesa is out officially in like 7 days.... For the most part Hawaiian has got a strong lock on inter-island.... not saying something bad couldn't happen.. But our operation runs like clockwork out here.. And it's alot of flights with minimal turn time under 20-30 minutes...all day long..

Throw a regional at local Hawaiians, with shoddy operations, poor aircarft reliability, and late flights.. and it is a recipe for disaster.. (you should see the airports out here when things do get mucked up due to a late arrival..) It occasioanlly happens at Hawaiian, but have it happen on a routine basis....no good..

You guys at SWA have a good thing going for yourselves.. Good pay, good schedules (the duty days aren't for me but to each his own) But I'm with others, I rather see us combined with Delta before SWA... personal opinion...

 

[canyonblue]

Good pay, good schedules (the duty days aren't for me but to each his own)..

So you enjoy duty days over 8 hours?

But I'm with others, I rather see us combined with Delta before SWA... personal opinion.

I would love to see you guys acquired by Delta. :beer:

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

So you enjoy duty days over 8 hours?



I would love to see you guys acquired by Delta. :beer:

And Stapled......:beer:

 

[HA25]

And Stapled......:beer:

yeah... too bad Lee Moak himself already credited HAL pilots for giving THEM the bar to build their latest contract on..

The cats' out of the bag on the topic of who's a bottom feeder.... Hawaiian Pilots SET the bar, not lower it (sorta like SWA historically has done until after the 9/11 cuts made it look so good)..

Like I said, Southwest is the ugly girl at the end of the bar after a long night of drinking... only looks good now since the rest of the industry's contracts were gutted .... but we're building those back up now, so you could say "we're sobering up" ..

 

[HowardBorden]

The cats' out of the bag on the topic of who's a bottom feeder.... Hawaiian Pilots SET the bar, not lower it (sorta like SWA historically has done until after the 9/11 cuts made it look so good)..

I'm not sure if you don't know the meaning of the phrase "SET the bar"', or your purposefully using it incorrectly. The term set the bar came from high jumping and pole vaulting. It literally means moving the bar up high enough that only the best competitor can get over it, thus "setting the bar."

Currently in US aviation, UPS is "setting the bar" for pay rates. Their highest rate on all equipment is $262 an hour.

Clearly this seems to be a slam on SWA, and even that's a hugely inaccurate. If you compare narrow body rates at SWA to narrow body rates at Hawaiian, SWA's highest rates are $49 an hour higher with better monthly guarantee and rigs. If you want to compare wide body rates to SWA rates, SWA is leading by $17, add in international override SWA still leads by $12 an hour with better guarantees and rigs.

Look, HA seems like a great place to work, I would be proud to work there without hesitation, but claiming they are currently setting the bar simply isn't accurate. Hopefully your future contracts will support that claim.

I am absolutely sure you will retort that SWA used to be the lower paid airline in the industry, and I can't dispute that, but we are talking about present day and portraying SWA as lower paid hasn't been a true argument for a decade. My entire tenure at SWA I have been compensated at a level well above industry average. If you want to argue what went on a decade ago then your living in the past and need to adopt a more timely argument.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Was HA setting the bar 5,10,15, or even 20 yrs ago? I don't know and that is why I am asking.

 

[HA25]

Was HA setting the bar 5,10,15, or even 20 yrs ago? I don't know and that is why I am asking.

at one time in the 80's ... HA had the highest paid DC9 pilots in the US..

 

[Dan Roman]

at one time in the 80's ... HA had the highest paid DC9 pilots in the US..

I'll take a stab at quick history lesson. True statement by HA25. Before deregulation, Republic, Allegheny, and Hawaiian Air lead the industry in DC9 pay rates, whoever had the most recent negotiation was the highest......then deregulation......fare wars, Mid Pacific (started by ex HA execs with money they got from HA) and fares as low as $9.95 one way to Maui. World wide expansion with L1011's and DC-8's etc. etc. The ups and downs (no pun intended) since than could be a good book. HA has had a wild ride to say the least. Our last contract, when signed, exceeded Delta in some areas, but more importantly didn't put any concessionary pressure on the industry standard. Hence Lee Moaks positive comments about HA I'm guessing. Now Delta has raised the bar above us (with our help!) now our contract is coming due so we will see. HA25, I have to correct your perception about the old timers here. Yes we are happy, we built the labor part of our airline through some very difficult times. We did what had to be done and now have a great airline to show for it. Don't think when the time comes we will lie down and let management roll over us. It will be a battle, Dunkerely will not be Santa Claus, but the perception of happy employees doesn't mean we don't think we deserve to be properly compensated.

 

[HA25]

While I hope we can "fix it" in our next contract, sadly I don't think we will get anything near what you are hoping for. Too many pilots with brothers, sisters, Moms, Dads, Aunties, Uncles, etc. working in various places around the company. Too many pilots being just happy to have a great gig in the islands and too many pilots hearing their relatives bitch and moan about how the pilots are putting their jobs at risk for a strike to ever happen. Hopefully with all the new blood it will change and I'll be proved wrong.

We're a great airline providing a great QOL and paycheck. I love it here and wouldn't want to work any place else but I don't think we will ever match Delta's money or work rules.

Hey Dan, I remain more optimistic than others, even if cautiously so... In the end only time will tell what we ask for and what we get in 2015...

As my signature says, we're all just a small part of a big process..