Looking for Hawaiian A321 Pay Rates

[waveflyer]

Dan,
That alpa history goes back to the California shuttle battles and UAL acting like a bunch of cockmonkeys including denying jump seats and lecturing pilots. Admittedly before my SWA tenure- but don't pretend it didn't happen-
Our response has been to kill them with kindness- we compete but we have a long standing tradition of treating all offline carriers better than their own companies.
(An aside: Who began the now industry standard of unlimited cabin jumpseating?)

Think you're on an "island" bc I heard it in the early 00's when I was a legacy pilot and that battle was still fresh- and the only reason it's not prevalent today is bc we've been carrying the best contract for a while now

My grudge against alpa is for two reasons- outsourcing and the misrepresentation of domestic pilots within their own ranks- often within individual MECs- they set up a career where we are constantly chasing the carrot- which leads to my second reason- malcontent pilots are active pilots.
Alpa fosters malcontent bc they believe it to make a stronger union.
I served and I've heard it time and again from organizers

And the irony is it may be true - partially - but at a soul killing cost

None of which is the point Dan. It's not an alpa bash- it's that merging alpa carriers hasn't been a good thing so why would you choose ALL legacies over SWA.

It's what sound reason could you give to want a legacy to purchase you?
Asked and answered with delta, and I have granted that. They have far and away done the best job with Nw. But AA/usair? UAL/CO?

Why on earth would those two be preferred?
Doesn't make sense unless you're a SWA hater
Everyone else has international markets and less domestic feed capability. And more complex politics.

I actually don't take a Hawaiian merger off the table. It looks unlikely today- but I view Hawaiian today as likely a candidate as JetBlue and as likely as I viewed air tran when I was hired. I think it would fit nicely with our goal of "world's most loved airline" as long as we don't paint your airplanes and keep Hawaiian as it is as much as possible.

I don't bet on it, but I wouldn't be shocked either.

 

[Dan Roman]

Actually Wave, I just said Delta. UAL or AA would be nightmare. As I said, anyone would be a pretty big step back for us, but SWA, while good at being a LCC domestic carrier, would be a terrible merge for both of us. If you tried to pull on us what you did to AirTran you would create insurmountable problems for you in Hawaii. It also would create a crappy little wannabe legacy airline. A domestic route structure with a relatively small International hub in Hawaii. Hardly a strong business model. So yes, while I having nothing against SWA, it would be a terrible match up that simply would drag us both down.

 

[johnsonrod]

When do the first A321s arrive and how many will be delivered per year?

 

[Squirrel29]

When do the first A321s arrive and how many will be delivered per year?

16 firm and 9 options delivery for the 16 are from 2017 - 2020.

 

[scarlet]

Money is on SWA, taking a look at HA. They want to fly there, they want those Intl routes in those $$$ countries. Will trade those Airbus for 787 (same cockpit as the max).

Sure they have looked at it…..

 

[BentOver]

Money is on SWA, taking a look at HA. They want to fly there, they want those Intl routes in those $$$ countries. Will trade those Airbus for 787 (same cockpit as the max).

Sure they have looked at it?..

I'm Guessing Allegiant is looking to buy Hawaiian.... If not them, maybe Frontier, or Spirit.


I bet spirit or frontier would love those international routes and the $$$ that goes along with them....

New rumor formed,
See how easy this is

 

[HAL]

Money is on SWA, taking a look at HA. They want to fly there, they want those Intl routes in those $$$ countries. Will trade those Airbus for 787 (same cockpit as the max).

Sure they have looked at it?..

Sure. Because similar looking cockpits are the perfect reason to dump a fleet of carefully chosen aircraft, re-train every pilot (including SWA pilots because it isn't a common type with the 737 Max), and change op. specs, maintenance procedures, spare part stocks, passenger service equipment & spares, etc.

HAL

 

[Dan Roman]

Sure. Because similar looking cockpits are the perfect reason to dump a fleet of carefully chosen aircraft, re-train every pilot (including SWA pilots because it isn't a common type with the 737 Max), and change op. specs, maintenance procedures, spare part stocks, passenger service equipment & spares, etc.

HAL

Well said! SWA, more than most, simply doesn't match up with Hawaiians route structure, equipment and business model. Not even close. As I said, if SWA thought trying to acquire Hawaiian would work for them, they really are in a downward spiral. I don't think they are that incompetent.

 

[BentOver]

To make it simple... Hawaiian is a sexy airline....

Hell, most of us live in Hawaii, fly wide body as new hires or upgrade directly into a wide body doing super senior type flying.....


What is not to love about a majority of out professional situations?...

. Hawaiian is not for everyone.. The islands are not for everyone... But I can see why some employee at another company would hope to "merge" with us to have the same type of lifestyle many of us enjoy...

It's kinda of like when you fly a work trip down to the Carribean and see some pilot flying some seaplane or similar and think to yourself " that guy has got the life". Only put that guy in a Hawaiian a/c... For a majority of us, we have the life and are very content to do what we do.

That and SWA has a business model completely different than ours.... I'd put SWA at the back of the list potential merger candidates..

 

[waveflyer]

I do not disagree Bent

Much respect brethren

And you do have some sexy FAs too

Wish our airline would get back to being sexy but we couldn't advertise for the swimsuit issue without people getting up in arms

(You may not expect it, and I don't either- but I wouldn't be shocked-
The nice thing about SWA is we're the only one who wouldn't want to change you and assimilate- (direct from a marketing exec)
So you're point isn't misguided- Hawaii wouldn't stand for Hawaiian goin away- but if it got acquired and still existed in most of it's form....)

Just saying it's been looked and will continue to

 

[waveflyer]

Dan...
C'mon-

I've got 8,000 posts

Think I'm going for that flame. "Pull" ??

Haha- good try

Just remember air tran was doing a lot of "pulling" of their own- might not be the best strategy for Hawaiian pilots to "pull" garbage tricks either when we buy you.
I bet you'll see it announced in 2016 1st qtr

 

[fr8doggie]

Dan...

C'mon-



I've got 8,000 posts



Think I'm going for that flame. "Pull" ??



Haha- good try



Just remember air tran was doing a lot of "pulling" of their own- might not be the best strategy for Hawaiian pilots to "pull" garbage tricks either when we buy you.

I bet you'll see it announced in 2016 1st qtr

Is your name Waverider or Vladimir Putin?

Gonna' give those HAL pilots a "good deal" are you?

Your history wouldn't indicate that.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

 

[fr8doggie]

I do not disagree Bent

Much respect brethren

And you do have some sexy FAs too

Wish our airline would get back to being sexy but we couldn't advertise for the swimsuit issue without people getting up in arms

(You may not expect it, and I don't either- but I wouldn't be shocked-
The nice thing about SWA is we're the only one who wouldn't want to change you and assimilate- (direct from a marketing exec)
So you're point isn't misguided- Hawaii wouldn't stand for Hawaiian goin away- but if it got acquired and still existed in most of it's form....)

Just saying it's been looked and will continue to

Would your scope clause allow HAL to be run separately?

Can't imagine corn dogs letting wide body long haul go to a "lesser group of pilots"

Regards,
Fr8doggie

 

[waveflyer]

Nope
It absolutely wouldn't so im glad I'm not suggesting that

I see no reason we couldn't negotiate to keep the paint and add an "operated by SWA" and the side

 

[fr8doggie]

I see no reason we couldn't negotiate to keep the paint and add an "operated by SWA" and the side

Sounds like the good deal you forced on AirTran pilots.

Can you say Guadalupe Holdings?

I doubt you'll be able to roll the HAL pilots as easily.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

 

[Dan Roman]

Nope
It absolutely wouldn't so im glad I'm not suggesting that

I see no reason we couldn't negotiate to keep the paint and add an "operated by SWA" and the side

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the threat against the AirTran pilots was to operate AirTran separately if they didn't accept the last offer? Btw, their is no way SWA could "pull" what they did on the AirTran folks in Hawaii. You simply would not be allowed to exist in the State if you tried anything like that.

Your dreaming about SWA considered buying Hawaiian dude. I know for a fact Kelley and Dunkerely are in fact friends. I know that when ATA went under they did talk about a code share agreement to fill that void. Straight from Dunkereleys mouth, he said the two airlines simply did not fit. Two completely different business plans that were not compatible .
SWA trying to grow internationally by having a relatively small AirBus hub in HNL would be a bigger mistake than USAir/PSA/Piedmont.

Wave I'm not attacking you or trying to flame you, really. But you dreaming if you think SWA is going to buy Hawaiian or vice versa.

 

[Jim]

Straight from Dunkereleys mouth, he said the two airlines simply did not fit. Two completely different business plans that were not compatible .

Also straight from Dunkereley's mouth when talking about why a code share with Southwest was rejected by Hawaiian (paraphrased). "Southwest wanted a code share more than we did. We don't need Southwest to sell tickets on our planes as we can fill our seats ourselves. Why should we give them money to do something we are already doing?"

I used to want to work for Southwest. When I was looking for a major job, Hawaiian and Southwest were my two top choices. I got hired at Hawaiian before ever getting a SWA interview. I interviewed at SWA in January 2002 when I was furloughed from Hawaiian the first time and was told that any other time I would have been hired but with the thousands of furloughed current 737 pilots available it wasn't my time (words straight from Lindsey Lang). I got recalled to Hawaiian in January 2008 and offered another SWA interview in the spring of 2008 which I turned down only because I was happy at Hawaiian and saw a good future here. Otherwise I would have ecstatically jumped at the SWA interview.

After the SWA/Air Tran merger, I want nothing to do with SWA. I had many SWA pilots on my jump seat (Hawaii is a popular destination for SWA jump seaters) during the integration negotiations telling me that Air Tran pilotd deserved nothing more than a staple and that if SWA bought Hawaiian, that would be all we deserved. The hatred and utter disdain for the Air Tran pilots and their airline was almost universal from the SWA pilots and it was obvious that while they would take our jump seat, they did not think much better of Hawaiian pilots or our airline.

So if Hawaiian loses it's independence, I would much rather it be from merging with or being bought by any of the big three than by SWA. That and I like international wide-body type flying over multiple daily domestic legs.

 

[HowardBorden]

After the SWA/Air Tran merger, I want nothing to do with SWA. I had many SWA pilots on my jump seat (Hawaii is a popular destination for SWA jump seaters) during the integration negotiations telling me that Air Tran pilotd deserved nothing more than a staple and that if SWA bought Hawaiian, that would be all we deserved. The hatred and utter disdain for the Air Tran pilots and their airline was almost universal from the SWA pilots and it was obvious that while they would take our jump seat, they did not think much better of Hawaiian pilots or our airline.

Sorry Jim, I've got to call absolute and total BS on that one. There may be some idiot that would sit on a jumpseat and tell the pilots of the airline generous enough to give them a free ride that they would deserve nothing more than a staple if acquired, but that is not what you are asserting. We all have idiots in our ranks that say ridiculous stuff, but you saying you personally witnessed many spouting this crap is laughable at best. I work with these folks on a daily basis and I have never heard "many" say this so I find it very difficult to believe that "many" would express these views to you in a "hostile" environment.

 

[Jim]

Sorry Jim, I've got to call absolute and total BS on that one. There may be some idiot that would sit on a jumpseat and tell the pilots of the airline generous enough to give them a free ride that they would deserve nothing more than a staple if acquired, but that is not what you are asserting. We all have idiots in our ranks that say ridiculous stuff, but you saying you personally witnessed many spouting this crap is laughable at best. I work with these folks on a daily basis and I have never heard "many" say this so I find it very difficult to believe that "many" would express these views to you in a "hostile" environment.

Ask the guy that was your LAS Asst. Chief pilot at that time about the Hawaiian 767 FO that said if he could, he'd open the main cabin door and throw his ass out into the Pacific for telling me that "Hawaiian is a small airline that has nowhere near the career of a SWA pilot and like Air Tran, should be stapled to the bottom of our list if we ever bought you." He's one example you could track down if you wanted a name.

Ok, many equals 5 or 6 in about an 18 month period. It usually started off with a conversation about your merger and then after hearing about "don't make the money (profits) of SWA" or "small airline" etc. means Air Tran pilots deserved nothing my Captain or I would ask what they think would happen if SWA and Hawaiian were in the same situation. About half would say "I don't know enough about Hawaiian to answer that" but the other 5 or 6 said we'd get treated exactly like they wanted to treat Air Tran. I don't think any of them viewed our cockpit as "hostile", more like "neutral". And the 5 or 6 were initially clueless enough not to notice when it went from neutral to hostile.

I also listened to many SWA pilots while riding the SWA jump seat talk among themselves about about the merger and the venom they spewed was amazing. They would sometime try to drag me into these conversations but I was smart enough to just say "glad it's not my problem, hope it works out for you" which somehow was normally taken as my agreeing with them.

I doubt that you had many conversations, if any, while working daily with your fellow SWA pilots about merging with/acquiring Hawaiian during your Air Tran SLI conversations. So as you claim I'm sure you never heard "many" say this. But I'm equally heard you heard "many" of your fellow SWA pilots say similar things solely about Air Tran. Your fellow SWA pilots said it on this board daily.

Call BS all you want and believe me or not. I don't care and I don't plan on getting into a useless string of replies where we each try and prove the other is a liar. It's not worth the time or effort. I know what I heard and I saw the same crap on here. I went from thinking SWA was an awesome place to work to a place I would avoid unless I had no other major airline option.

Funny, General Lee was right despite all the denials from the SWA pilots on this board. I just jumped from STL to LAS yesterday. I was talking with the crew and the Captain asked "How are things at Hawaiian?" After telling him the latest here, I asked "How are things at SWA?" He said he knows of 4 FOs who have recently left to go to Delta and then the FO chimed in "there are a couple leaving for AA and United too". They blamed "no upgrade in sight", "changing culture", and "bad management". General Lee said this was happening/would happen and all the SWA pilots on here slammed him for daring to think someone would not want to work at SWA let alone leave.

 

[HowardBorden]

I doubt that you had many conversations, if any, while working daily with your fellow SWA pilots about merging with/acquiring Hawaiian during your Air Tran SLI conversations. So as you claim I'm sure you never heard "many" say this. But I'm equally heard you heard "many" of your fellow SWA pilots say similar things solely about Air Tran. Your fellow SWA pilots said it on this board daily.

Call BS all you want and believe me or not. I don't care and I don't plan on getting into a useless string of replies where we each try and prove the other is a liar. It's not worth the time or effort. I know what I heard and I saw the same crap on here. I went from thinking SWA was an awesome place to work to a place I would avoid unless I had no other major airline option.

You would be absolutely wrong when you assume I have not had many specific conversations about merging/acquiring with Hawaiian. A Hawaiian acquisition has been a long running rumor (especially after the AT acquisition) on SWA flight decks.

So, when I listen to you talk about the SWA attitude concerning that scenario I find your assertions difficult to accept considering I have yet to hear someone relate that point of view to me personally when I can only assume I would be a much more sympathetic receptor of such views.

My statement went out of its way to stipulate the "many" assertion was where I had difficulty accepting the premise. Many suggests a majority opinion to me and I still find that premise disingenuous. If I have yet to hear ANY pilot echo the views you represent, the "many" comment still leads me to believe it is exaggerated considering the fact that I have yet to hear anyone express such views.

We all have our "off the deep end" individuals, which is why I was very careful to stipulate my response. I'm not trying to refute you never heard the statements you claim, but your general premise suggests it is a prevalent opinion which I very much refute.

 

[waveflyer]

We'll Jim, bottom line, the end result SLI would've been the same as it is with arbitration, actually list 1 would've produced that- so a couple hundred numbers more slanted in swa's favor and less upgrades.
So you guys would get relative seniority slanted somewhat in swa's favor.

This idea that SWA pilots reaped some huge benefit from air tran is dumb.

Make no mistake- air tran wanted relative placing them in some cases decades ahead of their date of hire on our list.

Their expectations were, and for some still are, out of whack.

World keeps spinning though- but air tran got a great deal out of this in the long run. Sucks for those who had their niche, but it's immature to say we screwed them

If it's venomous to receive nothing from a merger but diluted seniority and not give air tran everything, then I guess that's what it is.

When we buy you, don't expect to wag the dog either and I bet your career would still be pretty good

 

[FlyinGuy]

I guess you HA guys missed the point of SWA (management) buying you. First, you are inexpensive for the operation that you run. Second, they already have a 717 buyer. And last but actually first, they want the international operation. They want an established widebody flight dept with trained crews. You are arguing about product (where you are spot on about the differences), but you are forgetting that they will morph the operation to their liking......just like AT. I am not saying it is a good thing and that you are gonna be thrilled if it does, I am saying that it has an element of intrigue.

Of course, I heard GK recently say that he is not planning to buy/merge with anyone right now, but he would consider it if the right opportunity presented itself in the future.

So fly on and be happy HA because the chances are probably slim but I would not say impossible or never!!

 

[Saluki Dawg]

Let it go Wave. I happen to agree with Dan and Jim on this one. There is about ZERO chance of Southwest acquiring Hawaiian for all of the reasons that have already been stated. Now, do I think that Southwest is going to buy another Airline in the next five years? Absolutely! Do I think that Airline will be Hawaiian? Absolutely not.

 

[waveflyer]

Why not Saluki ?

 

[Saluki Dawg]

Disparate fleet as in (not Boeing). Not a deal breaker by any means, but certainly a consideration. HNL hub operation that is perfect for an Airline named Hawaiian, but much less ideal for an Airline like Southwest even if we were considering adding Asian Destinations. As has already been stated, you would have to continue to run Hawaiian as it's own brand in order to be successful in the islands. I also don't think our management is interested in running multiple brands on a permanent basis. Most of the other reasons have already been talked about by Dan and Jim.

 

[Dan Roman]

Saluki get's an A+ for comprehension and not demonstrating an " it's all about SWA" point of view. :beer:
Another fact to throw in there. Some people on the mainland may not realize just how important inter-island is. What would SWA use to fly inter-island? They can't use a 737 that is ETOPS capable. Economically impossible. So what would they use? You have to have a dedicated fleet for inter-island. Hawaiian can do it, it's their headquarters, but a mainland airline would have a lot of expenses that HA doesn't by trying to set up an operation like that in Hawaii.

 

[Dan Roman]

When we buy you, don't expect to wag the dog either and I bet your career would still be pretty good

Wave, sorry dude, but this an extremely arrogant statement. You usually have a lot of good posts. But statements like this could be an indication of just how poorly SWA might fit into Hawaii. It's indicative of an attitude that is very poorly received over here.

BTW, you didn't answer, didn't SWA threaten to operate AirTran separately?

 

[HA25]

There is no business logic to a WN HAL marriage... AK HAL is the most logical and in my view maybe the only one where there might be a good cultural fit. The only problem would be what you'd call the new airline?

As for the A321 rates... they're essentially meaningless.. we'll have a new contract well before we take delivery of the new jets. We didn't want to waste negotiation capital on those pay rates so all we did is take industry rates and parity them...

In 2010 Hawaiian did the heavy lifting for the other Legacy airlines to bring pay back to something reasonable compared to the huge cuts we all took post-9/11... Lee Moak himself said so much.. our 2010 contract was the bar DAL used to get their rates.. now it's our turn again in 2015 to fix industry rigs it would seem as apparently the guys at DAL, UAL and AA forgot to fix them in their last round... thanks boys.

 

[BentOver]

I agree....SWA just seems like a fit directly out of left field........

AK and JB (maybe VA, although I have no idea what they do as far as routes and schedule?) would be ahead of SWA IMO...

AA has little presence in Asia, so I could see that as a possibility... And always the Delta rumor....

Our gates and routes (oceanic) alone are probably worth a large percentage of our market cap

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, sorry dude, but this an extremely arrogant statement. You usually have a lot of good posts. But statements like this could be an indication of just how poorly SWA might fit into Hawaii. It's indicative of an attitude that is very poorly received over here.

BTW, you didn't answer, didn't SWA threaten to operate AirTran separately?

Threaten?

No threat- just a statement of SWA's options if AT was going to keep acting dysfunctional and delaying the process

Like you said- it's not a threat if a carrier actually wants to be operated separately -

Again dan- if you want to negotiate for yourself and negotiate well, go on.
My post above is only arrogant if you refuse to see the side of the story that you've never heard dan - which is just how weird AT was in the process- their internal politics were off the charts dysfunctional and combined with it a very real conflict of interest from ATALPA and the likes of PCL.
I don't consider negotiating with everything you have as trying to wag the dog- represent yourself well and you'd have a good career.

As for the other examples: SWA is a terrible fit, but somehow JetBlue and Alaska are good??
C'mon

I give SWA the best chance of buying Hawaiian out of the possibilities mentioned. 1 in 4
1 in 5

Worth mentioning