Looking for Hawaiian A321 Pay Rates

[rballan]

The internet failed me. Please post if you have them.

Cheers.

 

[Jim]

7/14/2013: Captain $180.62 - $184.94
9/14/2014: Captain $184.23 - $188.66
FOs get 46.1% - 69.8% of Captain pay rate depending on longevity.

You have to keep in mind that when these rates were negotiated, both the company and the union agreed that they would be within the existing rate structure (i.e. between the 717 and 330/767rates). Both acknowledged that before the first plane hit the property in 2017 were will have a new contract (current ammendable in 9/2015) with higher rates. But our current rate structure was from 2010 before the latest round of contracts were signed at Delta, UAL and AA.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Just look at the SWA rates because I am sure they will snap up to that after the acquisition.

 

[Dan Roman]

Just look at the SWA rates because I am sure they will snap up to that after the acquisition.

Hawaiian not's buying SWA...Two completely different types of airlines. A relatively small International widebody hub in Hawaii hardly fits into an LCC 737 operation.

 

[scoreboardII]

Don't be so sure. Hawaiian is by definition a widebody LCC niche carrier.

 

[Dan Roman]

Don't be so sure. Hawaiian is by definition a widebody LCC niche carrier.

There are now three big carriers, the rest of us all have a niche. But HA is not considered an "LCC" carrier. They create their market by offering a higher level of service, not by lower fares. Hawaiian actually gets a higher average yield to the west coast than anyone else. But the simple fact is our operation simply doesn't fit with SWA in any way. That's not a slam and I'm not saying one is better than the other. It's simply apples and oranges. When SWA approached us after ATA went under it was looked at. Straight from Dunkerley, "the two airlines simply had two distinct types of business models that didn't fit".
Other than a few cities on the west coast, we don't connect and our wide body Airbus hub in HNL is about as far from the SWA business model as you can get.

 

[waveflyer]

Hawaiian Airlines

(Operated by Southwest Airlines)

One seniority list modeled after the air tran list

Where would you be Dan?

(All TIC, don't get all sensitive )

 

[scoreboardII]

There are now three big carriers, the rest of us all have a niche. But HA is not considered an "LCC" carrier. They create their market by offering a higher level of service, not by lower fares. Hawaiian actually gets a higher average yield to the west coast than anyone else. But the simple fact is our operation simply doesn't fit with SWA in any way. That's not a slam and I'm not saying one is better than the other. It's simply apples and oranges. When SWA approached us after ATA went under it was looked at. Straight from Dunkerley, "the two airlines simply had two distinct types of business models that didn't fit".
Other than a few cities on the west coast, we don't connect and our wide body Airbus hub in HNL is about as far from the SWA business model as you can get.

No slam taken, but you need to research the truth:

PHX: KONA on HI 31 Mar rtn 12 Apr RT coach $1150ish, Business $1,870

Delta, same dates and destination: Economy RT $1450, Business class $3,700 And they use HI as interisland transfer.

Not an LCC? Think again.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I'm just sayin that SWA is gonna be looking for longer international service soon. When? IDK. They can create it or buy it. I would prefer they create it, but Kelly seems to like the ready made growth thru the power of purchase.

 

[WSurf]

I'm just sayin that SWA is gonna be looking for longer international service soon. When? IDK. They can create it or buy it. I would prefer they create it, but Kelly seems to like the ready made growth thru the power of purchase.

With a limited amount of slots in many airports it would be hard to create it yourself. Look how hard Virgin America's having getting slots and that's just domestic slots. International slots are like Gold Mines.....

Simple solution buy the airline and the slots come with it.

 

[Dan Roman]

No slam taken, but you need to research the truth:

PHX: KONA on HI 31 Mar rtn 12 Apr RT coach $1150ish, Business $1,870

Delta, same dates and destination: Economy RT $1450, Business class $3,700 And they use HI as interisland transfer.

Not an LCC? Think again.

Hawaiian averages higher fares than any other airline. That came from an investor presentation by the company. You can't hardly expect comparing one day says anything. Fares fluctuate more than my first wife's moods.
Hawaiian attracts it's customers primarily because the are "Hawaiian". Not because they are perceived as being a low cost ticket.

 

[Dan Roman]

Hawaiian Airlines

(Operated by Southwest Airlines)

Where would you be Dan?

I'd be retired! :beer:
Actually, SWA simply couldn't do what they did to AirTran in Hawaii and still conduct business here. It simply wouldn't work. Hawaii is an island (surprise!). If someone tries to bust there way in arrogantly they get hammered down. Doesn't matter if it's an individual, small business or big business. SWA simply could not pull that crap (like what you did to AirTran) here and ever feel comfortable here. For one thing, your threat to operate us separately, like you did with AirTran, would be considered a good thing!
Anyway, you know me, I could go on and on here, the reality is it really isn't going to happen. Even if we started to go into merger play, it appears more and more likely that the DOJ probably wouldn't allow Hawaiian to disappear number one, and number two, I doubt DAL, UAL or AA would stand by and let SWA buy into being the largest carrier in Hawaii.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Just look at the SWA rates because I am sure they will snap up to that after the acquisition.

Why aim low? Am I the only pilot who thinks an A321 should pay more than a B737? Pilot groups, mine included, keep giving up productivety (flying more ASMs) for the same or less money.

 

[waveflyer]

Dan-
So that begs the question-
Would you rather be bought by a big 3 or SWA?
You have only those choices in this hypothetical

 

[Jim]

Dan-
So that begs the question-
Would you rather be bought by a big 3 or SWA?
You have only those choices in this hypothetical

This Hawaiian pilot would rather be bought by one of the big three than SWA any day of the week. Preferably Delta. But what I really want is to stay independent and I think that is what it will be.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan-
So that begs the question-
Would you rather be bought by a big 3 or SWA?
You have only those choices in this hypothetical

I agree with Jim, for sure Delta. That said, it's not meant as any disrespect to SWA. Great airline, but a merger with SWA would offer less opportunity than a merger with Delta and a lot more conflict.
That said, a merger with anyone would be a big step down for us. Most of us at Hawaiian work here because we like the lifestyle it provides, living in Hawaii and schedules that would be very senior at any other airline.

 

[HAL]

Dan-
So that begs the question-
Would you rather be bought by a big 3 or SWA?
You have only those choices in this hypothetical

I reject your reality, and replace it with mine. And my answer is none of the above. I've been through the beginning stages of a merger (AWA/US) and don't want to repeat it. Dan has said on many occasions that anyone buying HA wouldn't get any benefit from it because what makes us special (and profitable) would disappear if we merged, negating the reason for merging in the first place. I agree fully with that idea. And really, why does it have to be the big three and NO other airlines left? In reality, it will be the big three, with several smaller niche carriers too. HA will be one of those smaller carriers.

As for choosing between one of the majors or SWA? Four equal piles of $&#@ is not a choice I want to make.

HAL

 

[waveflyer]

Fair enough fellas


Here's to no more acquisitions- seems employees never get the best end of the deals

 

[Dan Roman]

Fair enough fellas


Here's to no more acquisitions- seems employees never get the best end of the deals

The history of mergers is full of a lot more failures than successes. Usually they are a precursor to a downfall. Piedmont/USAir, PamAm/ National, etc etc. most mergers make a few people money at the expense of the employees. They are done for one reason and one reason only, an attempt to increase shareholder value. The Hawaiian employees are very aware of this and anybody that tried to destroy what they have built would get a hell of fight and open a Pandora's box of unanticipated problems.

 

[Dan Roman]

BTW the jury is still out on SWA/AirTran....but if SWA actually did, as far fetched as it sounds, try to merge with Hawaiian it would probably destroy them, or at least put them in the category of PanAm/ National, TWA/Ozark or USAir.

 

[waveflyer]

You sound like you're trying to convince Gary as if he's monitoring this board dan

 

[Dan Roman]

You sound like you're trying to convince Gary as if he's monitoring this board dan

If Gary spends his time reading these boards you guys really are in trouble! ... Nah, but when SWA pilots jump on here and start dissing HA they are going to get a response. Guess we made our point pretty clear though! You asked for a response and got it. As you said, all pretty hypothetical. I would say the chances of SWA buying Hawaiian are about the same of HA buying SWA, I.E. zero.
If all of a sudden SWA thought they should have a relatively small international Airbus hub in the middle of the Pacific your "Gary" would really be losing the plot.

 

[waveflyer]

Who's ever dissed you?

Love Hawaiian

As an ex big 3 pilot I find it strange you'd rather have a big 3 buy you, but sounds like standard alpa SWA hatin

 

[BentOver]

Have absolutely no interest in merging with anyone... My preference if I had a choice would be Delta..atleast they were able to pull off a huge merger with relatively little in fighting...

Just don't see SWA as a merger candidate.... Hard to believe they would go from being a completely domestic carrier to being an international carrier flying to Australia, China and Japan utilizing A330 a/c...

I know SWA just announced their " international":laugh: entry going to far off places like Mexico or the Carribean... But maybe we shouldn't put the cart in front of the horse.. Baby steps gentleman.. Hit up Canada next... Then maybe think about changing the business model, aircraft types, and becoming a go to carrier for Asians and Aussies traveling to Hawaii....

Only positive I could see with any merger is commuters from the mainland having a shorter commute..... Or guys who really don't like living in Hawaii (schools, family or whatever reason) being able to choose a different place to live.

Me personally... I'd be more than happy to live in Hawaii, complete my 2 leg trips and retire where I'm at..

 

[waveflyer]

Have absolutely no interest in merging with anyone... My preference if I had a choice would be Delta..atleast they were able to pull off a huge merger with relatively little in fighting...


Me personally... I'd be more than happy to live in Hawaii, complete my 2 leg trips and retire where I'm at..

Good point

Delta has it all over anyone else in this regard-

And I'm right with you on that last sentence-
But with 20 years to go, it's up to the career gods now

 

[Dan Roman]

Who's ever dissed you?

Love Hawaiian

As an ex big 3 pilot I find it strange you'd rather have a big 3 buy you, but sounds like standard alpa SWA hatin

Anytime someones say's merger, that's dissing!

A merger with anyone is a huge step backwards.

Wave, I really don't get the anti ALPA bias you SWA folks bring up. It's just a union, like SWAPA, APA. USAPA (OK maybe not USAPA!) etc. I've never heard a ALPA sanctioned negative word about SWA. But for some reason SWA pilots, more than anyone, seem to have it in for ALPA? I could care less what the name of my union is, it's the membership that ultimately decides how effective they are. Obviously ALPA has the most resources and has contributed the most to our profession, but I don't have anything against SWAPA or SWA. I think you guys get a little sensitive to any comment that doesn't jive with the SWA kool aid, but, really, I've said time and again SWA is a great airline and your biggest contribution is the demonstrating that taking care of your employees is a good thing.
:beer:

 

[Dan Roman]

Just don't see SWA as a merger candidate.... Hard to believe they would go from being a completely domestic carrier to being an international carrier flying to Australia, China and Japan utilizing A330 a/c...
..

..

I think what people don't realize when they drool over merging with Hawaiian is we don't fit in anyone. Our west coast to Hawaii market is mostly AM departures to Hawaii. As result, our routes simply don't match up to any of the domestic carrier route structures. We are too early to get much feed. We carry passengers primarily who want to go to Hawaii on "Hawaiian Air". So not only would we lose most of what makes us successful if the Hawaiian Air name went away, we simply don't have a route structure that dovetails in with any of the mainland carriers.

 

[fly4surf]

Which a manager could change tomorrow Dan if they wanted.

 

[Squirrel29]

No reason for Delta to buy Hawaiian. Delta can start any of the routes Hawaiian has (besides HNL - HND) with their own metal. That and the interisland market wouldn't be enough. The only airline I could see that would benefit from buying Hawaiian and being a perfect fit would be Jet Blue. But afaik Hawaiian isn't interested in being bought.

 

[Dan Roman]

Which a manager could change tomorrow Dan if they wanted.

Except the airline is built around AM departures from the west coast. Change those times and you completely change the whole business. I.E. early AM departures that can connect to a mid day inter-island flight and be at their hotel by the 3 pm check in time. Also west coast flights that connect to our International flights would be gone. You would also screw up the daily A/C utilization that combines the use of our widebodies flying west coast flights and International flights throughout the Pacific. So in theory a manager could change it, but he would soon be out of a job for blatant incompetence.