Latest DAL/NWA arbitration debates

[PuffDriver]

First off, it is your tone. You come across as having an attitude that the NWA pilots should be so thankful that we are now DAL. I think it is great, but that does not mean my seniority is for sale. You say we got a raise, didn't loa 19 give you a raise also? Anyway, how can you call it a raise when, in actuality, we are getting back some of what our pay used to be. We're still not back to what we lost.

You seem to diminish(with enjoyment) what NWA brings to the merger. I don't think you realize what we bring. I also don't think you realize what we lost under the new PWA, although, there we also gains.

What makes you so sure I'd make more money now? I think I would have upgraded quicker and been a Capt longer without the merger. Pay rates are very vulnerable. Seniority is more important to me than pay.

I read the transcripts, but, it seems you want to dig in and come up with an interpreted meaning as to how this will turn out. I want to feel like we ALL win, whereas you'd rather see us(NWA) lose. I choose to be happy with whatever happens with the SLI. But to constantly put down NWA and our pilots, like you do, is an easy way to cause animosity.

I shouldn't even started with my original post. I apologize if you were offended, but you deserved it. It was a spur of the moment jab that snowballed into more infighting.

I am not sure how you read a "tone" within the scope of a 2-D computer screen. I can tell you that there isn't one. I might add that a bit of introspection might reveal a bit of defensiveness? The Delta MEC from day 1 has considered it a merger of equals, as have I. To the contrary, it is the NWA MEC who from day 1 has been preaching "super-premium widebody flying" and the NRT hub. Very little has been mentioned of the "super profitable" Africa operation, or the very profitable latin and South America operation. No mention of the money losing NWA cargo operation either. For the record, it is a merger of equals. Nobody is better or worse, as I have mentioned before and apparently was looked over. The amount of jobs, and their value, that are brought to the merger is the determining value.

Let's start with:

I think it is great, but that does not mean my seniority is for sale. You say we got a raise, didn't loa 19 give you a raise also? Anyway, how can you call it a raise when, in actuality, we are getting back some of what our pay used to be. We're still not back to what we lost.

This is part of my issue with the NW line of thinking is these buzz phrases. Nobody is saying that seniority is for sale. Seniority is an equity brought to the merger. Again, seniority arbitration is about jobs AND their value. NWA brought not only less jobs in number, but less value with those less jobs. Somehow, the value of a career has to be measured. That is done via pay rates existing over a career including planned raises. We did our merger a little different in that NWA pilots were brought up to parity with Delta pilots on DCC. BTW I call it a pay raise to prevent having to type "increase over prior compensation every time". It is indeed more money in your pocket than you had coming in the day before. Not just a pay raise, but increased staffing levels, 2 captain/2 f/o vs 1 captain 3 f/o, etc. Your team has run numerous scenarios using your old seniority list with the new pay rates which is mixing apples and oranges. You didn't get the rates without the DCC. We were getting the rates without the DCC. Big difference. Additionally our 8 737-700s were brought up to parity with the -800s on hourly rate. That's it for us until jan1, when we get our raise, which you also get BTW. That is increased value to your career brought on by the merger which we did not get. That HAS to be accounted for in the seniority list amongst a merger of equals.

LOA 19 gave us no raise on DCC. It DID give you one. Quibbling over nomenclature is what I would consider non-relevant. You got MORE compensation increase in the merger than I did. That has to be equalized somehow.


Moving on:

What makes you so sure I'd make more money now? I think I would have upgraded quicker and been a Capt longer without the merger. Pay rates are very vulnerable. Seniority is more important to me than pay.

The numbers have been run. I have seen them. The career compensation of a NWA pilot, without exception is higher with the increased pay rates, under the Delta list, without exception, than NWA old rates with your attrition under your old rules and rates. To attempt to predict the future with pay rate vulnerability is futile, IMO and detracts from the issue at hand. Seniority is actually an abstract concept, and is just as vulnerable--as we have seen at USAir with 18 year furloughees. There has to me a concrete measure of value and number of jobs to integrate seniority lists fairly. The "joy" I take is a figment of your imagination I can assure you. The numbers have also been run, and Delta pilots need to have the list they proposed in order to keep our career compensation equal to pre-merger compensation. That's why there is so little wiggle room. This is not a negotiation to us, it IS the fair final solution, we believe. we are not playing the traditional game of starting on opposite ends and meeting in the middle. We have played it straight up from day 1, despite all of the accusations which have been proven wrong with the element of time.

Moving along:

I read the transcripts, but, it seems you want to dig in and come up with an interpreted meaning as to how this will turn out. I want to feel like we ALL win, whereas you'd rather see us(NWA) lose. I choose to be happy with whatever happens with the SLI. But to constantly put down NWA and our pilots, like you do, is an easy way to cause animosity.

I never made any other claim that it was anything BUT my interpretation, although I firmly believe that my line of thinking is both more fair and rational than the catch phrases "seniority is not for sale", "double breasted sky gods", and "arrogant Delta pilots". We have run the numbers, and they are cold, hard, and fair. Anything less is a gain by you at a loss to us--which is prohibited by ALPA merger policy. Your pilots DTW, red tail, Super get exactly what they give. The impression out there seems to be that Delta pilots are pushovers. We aren't. We speak softly, and carry the stick to use if necessary. The majority, as supported by voting record, don't run around shooting off flares just because they look pretty. As a group, we vote with our head, and go with the numbers rather than get wrapped up in rhetoric. We stand by, however, to pull the trigger when necessary.

To make a short story long , you will not find a slam by me until somebody else has done so first. My initial post in this thread had been my first in awhile, and was made in response to one of my own with my impression of how it was all going down. I firmly believe that the evidence, as well as fairness, points firmly to the Delta proposal--perhaps modified slightly. I also stated why I thought that. Check the posts following it, including yours--no hard feelings BTW. A lot of rhetoric(number of pilots attending the hearings, arrogant Delta pilots, colors), and little rebuttal of the issues that actually count. I fully realize that you do not agree, and now I have addressed some of the reasons why you do not agree--I think.

The Delta guys want a fair list. Having a dynamic list for 10 years until all NWA retirements have peaked, and then having it static at Delta retirements are peaking is not good faith fairness, and leads to animosity, and is just as far away from fairness at DOH with 10 year fences, IMO. While I agree that it addresses your issues, I do not think that you are taking a hard look as to how it addresses Delta pilot issues. Not your job, nor your lawyers. I get that. Nor is it our job to address yours then, and I don't think that is quite being understood.

It is what it is, and probably human nature. Regardless, it is done. I will move on fair or unfair outcome--as I believe that we are in for some very hard times ahead.

 

[Superpilot92]

YGBSM..Good one. Keep them coming.

ok I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked a serious question yet you can't even answer. You will now be blocked as you clearly contribute nothing but childish flames to every discussion.

Puffdriver=ignore list, he/she earned it.

 

[PuffDriver]

ok I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked a serious question yet you can't even answer. You will now be blocked as you clearly contribute nothing but childish flames to every discussion.

Puffdriver=ignore list, he/she earned it.

Apparently into thin air:

Seriously, Flamebaiting continuously removes any credibility to your posts or opinions. Why come onto an aviation forum only to waste your time flamebaiting? Is there a point? Why not use this forum for it's real purpose? Try contributing to discussion for a change.

I might ask every question the same of you, hence my response. You have gotten what you have given. I have provided many opinions, and the basis for each. If you think that "for a change" would be contributing on my part, then you haven't been paying attention. I simply don't do it, except in direct response to flamebaiting. If I am truly on your ignore list, so be it. Imo, YOU'VE earned it. Try MJs approach sometime and you may get different response. If you think that by blocking me, that you are punishing me, you WAY overestimate your pull with me. Frankly, it will be more of a relief as it stands now.

 

[MJ42]

I am not sure how you read a "tone" within the scope of a 2-D computer screen. I can tell you that there isn't one. I might add that a bit of introspection might reveal a bit of defensiveness? The Delta MEC from day 1 has considered it a merger of equals, as have I. To the contrary, it is the NWA MEC who from day 1 has been preaching "super-premium widebody flying" and the NRT hub. Very little has been mentioned of the "super profitable" Africa operation, or the very profitable latin and South America operation. No mention of the money losing NWA cargo operation either. For the record, it is a merger of equals. Nobody is better or worse, as I have mentioned before and apparently was looked over. The amount of jobs, and their value, that are brought to the merger is the determining value.

Let's start with:



This is part of my issue with the NW line of thinking is these buzz phrases. Nobody is saying that seniority is for sale. Seniority is an equity brought to the merger. Again, seniority arbitration is about jobs AND their value. NWA brought not only less jobs in number, but less value with those less jobs. Somehow, the value of a career has to be measured. That is done via pay rates existing over a career including planned raises. We did our merger a little different in that NWA pilots were brought up to parity with Delta pilots on DCC. BTW I call it a pay raise to prevent having to type "increase over prior compensation every time". It is indeed more money in your pocket than you had coming in the day before. Not just a pay raise, but increased staffing levels, 2 captain/2 f/o vs 1 captain 3 f/o, etc. Your team has run numerous scenarios using your old seniority list with the new pay rates which is mixing apples and oranges. You didn't get the rates without the DCC. We were getting the rates without the DCC. Big difference. Additionally our 8 737-700s were brought up to parity with the -800s on hourly rate. That's it for us until jan1, when we get our raise, which you also get BTW. That is increased value to your career brought on by the merger which we did not get. That HAS to be accounted for in the seniority list amongst a merger of equals.

LOA 19 gave us no raise on DCC. It DID give you one. Quibbling over nomenclature is what I would consider non-relevant. You got MORE compensation increase in the merger than I did. That has to be equalized somehow.


Moving on:




The numbers have been run. I have seen them. The career compensation of a NWA pilot, without exception is higher with the increased pay rates, under the Delta list, without exception, than NWA old rates with your attrition under your old rules and rates. To attempt to predict the future with pay rate vulnerability is futile, IMO and detracts from the issue at hand. Seniority is actually an abstract concept, and is just as vulnerable--as we have seen at USAir with 18 year furloughees. There has to me a concrete measure of value and number of jobs to integrate seniority lists fairly. The "joy" I take is a figment of your imagination I can assure you. The numbers have also been run, and Delta pilots need to have the list they proposed in order to keep our career compensation equal to pre-merger compensation. That's why there is so little wiggle room. This is not a negotiation to us, it IS the fair final solution, we believe. we are not playing the traditional game of starting on opposite ends and meeting in the middle. We have played it straight up from day 1, despite all of the accusations which have been proven wrong with the element of time.

Moving along:



I never made any other claim that it was anything BUT my interpretation, although I firmly believe that my line of thinking is both more fair and rational than the catch phrases "seniority is not for sale", "double breasted sky gods", and "arrogant Delta pilots". We have run the numbers, and they are cold, hard, and fair. Anything less is a gain by you at a loss to us--which is prohibited by ALPA merger policy. Your pilots DTW, red tail, Super get exactly what they give. The impression out there seems to be that Delta pilots are pushovers. We aren't. We speak softly, and carry the stick to use if necessary. The majority, as supported by voting record, don't run around shooting off flares just because they look pretty. As a group, we vote with our head, and go with the numbers rather than get wrapped up in rhetoric. We stand by, however, to pull the trigger when necessary.

To make a short story long , you will not find a slam by me until somebody else has done so first. My initial post in this thread had been my first in awhile, and was made in response to one of my own with my impression of how it was all going down. I firmly believe that the evidence, as well as fairness, points firmly to the Delta proposal--perhaps modified slightly. I also stated why I thought that. Check the posts following it, including yours--no hard feelings BTW. A lot of rhetoric(number of pilots attending the hearings, arrogant Delta pilots, colors), and little rebuttal of the issues that actually count. I fully realize that you do not agree, and now I have addressed some of the reasons why you do not agree--I think.

The Delta guys want a fair list. Having a dynamic list for 10 years until all NWA retirements have peaked, and then having it static at Delta retirements are peaking is not good faith fairness, and leads to animosity, and is just as far away from fairness at DOH with 10 year fences, IMO. While I agree that it addresses your issues, I do not think that you are taking a hard look as to how it addresses Delta pilot issues. Not your job, nor your lawyers. I get that. Nor is it our job to address yours then, and I don't think that is quite being understood.

It is what it is, and probably human nature. Regardless, it is done. I will move on fair or unfair outcome--as I believe that we are in for some very hard times ahead.

You make some valid points from a "RD" pilot's point of view. Being former NWA I see it differently. You obviously put a lot of time and research(and sarcasm ) into your posts. I read the transcripts but probably don't have the extent of knowledge, as you do, to fully understand what is meant.

What I do understand, IMO, is that DAL's proposal doesn't seem fair to me(and for that matter any NWA pilot). I don't want a list that will cause problems for years to come. However, it does bother me when posters(DAL and NWA) spin the arbitrators comments to support their SLI proposal. If pilots try to interpret the arbitrators thinking, they may just be setting themselves up for a major disappointment.

My own personal opinion is that all pilots hired after the last furlough(on both sides) should be DOH. Especially those DAL pilots hired AFTER the merger was announced. They can keep their 767er, I'll take the seniority.

I hope both sides will accept the SLI decision no matter what the outcome.

Maybe I read too much into your posts and misinterpret your tone, I guess it's because I disagree with your assessment.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Funny thing is that there may be some legal ramifications to doing that to the bottom of the list.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

....My own personal opinion is that all pilots hired after the last furlough(on both sides) should be DOH. Especially those DAL pilots hired AFTER the merger was announced. They can keep their 767er, I'll take the seniority.

I hope both sides will accept the SLI decision no matter what the outcome.

I know you'd love the seniority... remember NWA hired under 5% of their current list this cycle. DAL hired 10% of their current list. That is a big difference. DOH on the bottom end would be a windfall and damage the furlough buffer for DAL guys.

So, I'll take the seniority.


I agree with you on the bottom line though... whatever comes down at the end ruling or agreement is what we've gotta live with. I'm not going to be b!tching about it for the next 38 years.

 

[Speedbird34]

I know you'd love the seniority... remember NWA hired under 5% of their current list this cycle. DAL hired 10% of their current list. That is a big difference. DOH on the bottom end would be a windfall and damage the furlough buffer for DAL guys.

So, I'll take the seniority.


I agree with you on the bottom line though... whatever comes down at the end ruling or agreement is what we've gotta live with. I'm not going to be b!tching about it for the next 38 years.

I agree 100% Thank God we do not have the mentality of throwing our junior guys under the bus. This merger is already damaging enough on our career expectations and quality of life.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That's kind of what concerns me with Bloch's introduction of "pull out-put in." That protects the NWA pilots' attrition without re-compensating for the Delta pilots' equipment and QOL. It is too blunt an axe IMHO. These slices need to be made with micrometers and lasers.

If Bloch used a variable that gave him even 100 pilots it would completely nullify any ratio that stacked the 88 above a DC9 in any sort of ratio. It would be worse than DOH for DAL at the bottom. Bloch would probably feel that a fence balances it out.

Certainly the closing makes it a cliffhanger.

 

[PuffDriver]

You make some valid points from a "RD" pilot's point of view. Being former NWA I see it differently. You obviously put a lot of time and research(and sarcasm ) into your posts. I read the transcripts but probably don't have the extent of knowledge, as you do, to fully understand what is meant.

What I do understand, IMO, is that DAL's proposal doesn't seem fair to me(and for that matter any NWA pilot). I don't want a list that will cause problems for years to come. However, it does bother me when posters(DAL and NWA) spin the arbitrators comments to support their SLI proposal. If pilots try to interpret the arbitrators thinking, they may just be setting themselves up for a major disappointment.

My own personal opinion is that all pilots hired after the last furlough(on both sides) should be DOH. Especially those DAL pilots hired AFTER the merger was announced. They can keep their 767er, I'll take the seniority.

I hope both sides will accept the SLI decision no matter what the outcome.

Maybe I read too much into your posts and misinterpret your tone, I guess it's because I disagree with your assessment.

I understand that you feel the DAL proposal is not fair. What I urge, is that you explore why it feels unfair as to why indeed it IS unfair--if at all.

To diverge, as an example, we went through two different pay cuts at Delta in the recent past. The first was outside of BK, the second of course was the final product out of BK. many of us felt both times that both agreements were unfair. Be that as it may, I went with my feelings on the first vote, and voted no. Of course, I was even more pi$$ed when the second bite of the apple came, but after looking at the whole package, and seeing what the alternative was, I begrudgingly voted yes although it would have felt better to vote no.

I see that you feel our proposal is unfair, and I get it. I have attempted to explain the fairness behind it, apparently without success. I understand that NWA was counting on these retirements to promote. That changed with the merger IMO. notice that when NWA guys talk about time frames, they tend to talk in a 10 year frame--when their retirements happen. The period immediately after, when Delta retirements kick into high gear, seem to get neglected.

Anyway, good exchange, and I too hope that we can all move on. I am not optimistic, however, given the history of bad blood between your more senior folk. Delta pilots ted to vent, and then move on.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

ok I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked a serious question yet you can't even answer. You will now be blocked as you clearly contribute nothing but childish flames to every discussion.

Puffdriver=ignore list, he/she earned it.

While you're over there, tell detoilet320 we said ,"hi.":blush: