Jetblue Seniority

[CUZ]

And the 190 pilots will do it for half of that, hence the need for a union[/quote

]



ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines Inc., the nation's third-largest carrier, is prepared to use the bankruptcy court to achieve $325 million in cost concessions from its pilots if the company and union can't reach a deal on their own, chief executive Gerald Grinstein said Thursday

lets see how well DALPA will protect the profession...............hence the need for a union...

DITTO

 

[G4G5]

Talk to the IPA about how bad a pilot union can be, they just received a 95% confidency vote (pro strike) from their membership. The IPA is on the verge of making the UPS pilots the wealthiest of any pilot group. Uniforns, luggage, 1% A fubd, 11% B fund yada yada. All paid for.

Talk to the SWA pilots about how bad a union has been for them. Higest paid 737 pilots I know of.

Airtran has the NPA. They seem to be doing pretty well.

You guys crack me up. It's just another case of the Kool Aide blues. No one said it has to be ALPO but your mgt has got your pilot group so anti union, that the thought of a union that actually could do something good is beyond anyones concept.

Their are good unions, that actually help pilots. A union is what you make it. Anyone who follows my posts know that I am definatly not pro APLO. But you have to admit that something as simple as a seniority list showing projected seniority at retirement is something that a union would be good at.

Besides who ever said it had to be 2%, for years the APA charged 1.5% and they had over 10,000 pilots. To defend and represent 2,000 pilots with a positive friendly mgt, shouldn't cost 2%. It's when you start spending big bucks on the lawers that the money adds up quick.

Food for thought.

 

[banger]

And the 190 pilots will do it for half of that, hence the need for a union

Yea, a union did me a lot of good! After faithfully paying my dues, everything they promised me; No furlough, retirement,etc.. is gone. Every pilot I know in ALPA is trying to get out of it. What union do you like?

 

[G4G5]

What do USAir, UAL, DAL and NWA all have in common?
ALPO
What do SWA, UPS, AA and Airtran all have in comon?
Besides not being bankrupt. Independant pilot unions.

Your a smart guy, you tell me which would be better for Jetblue?

 

[jbucpt]

What do USAir, UAL, DAL and NWA all have in common?
ALPO
What do SWA, UPS, AA and Airtran all have in comon?
Besides not being bankrupt. Independant pilot unions.

Your a smart guy, you tell me which would be better for Jetblue?

none...........AA is on the brink of bankruptcy, (pilots will have to give back) SWA only made a profit due to intelligent management hedging fuel....airtran will post a lost for the year ( pilots will have to give back) and UPS is not in the passenger carrier business.. i.e. little competition....

the only thing pilot unions proved the last 4 years is how quick it can GIVE BACK.... that 2% was money well spent???

whats smarter, starting at a lower rate gradually going up or taking it in the A$$ and giving it back????

 

[IB6 UB9]

What do USAir, UAL, DAL and NWA all have in common?
ALPO
What do SWA, UPS, AA and Airtran all have in comon?
Besides not being bankrupt. Independant pilot unions.

Your a smart guy, you tell me which would be better for Jetblue?

Where are you laid off from anyway?

 

[Falconjet]

Unions aren't a defense against bad business models or really unfortunate economic and political realities. You are expecting way to much of a union if you think it can prevent furloughs or airlines driving themselves into bankruptcy. How do you feel about Santa Claus?

I'd still prefer to have the union behind me when it comes times to negotiate contracts, grieve a scheduling error, or God forbid defend me from some enforcement action by the FAA.

Oh yeah, 1-T-R, we need to talk. I think you are doing more redeyes than I am right now, and I'm a vampire!

Hope ya'll are doing well down there in my hometown.

FJ

 

[TonyC]

... UPS is not in the passenger carrier business.. i.e. little competition...

When you grow out of your nursery rhyme phase, read up on a little Memphis-based company started by Fred Smith.



Hey Diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle...

 

[conman]

whats smarter, starting at a lower rate gradually going up or taking it in the A$$ and giving it back????


And there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Those are the words of a new-age airline pilot who's compensation expectations have been altered by airline management. JetBlue has created the modern era "B" scale with its EMB rates of pay. In August of 1991, thirteen years ago an American Airlines F-100 CA made $142.72 per hour. A JetBlue equivalent will bag $89.00 per hour at year 12. Now the rest of the industry has finally given in to the low cost operators. My question. Will you guys rise up and defend the profession?

 

[banger]

taking it in the A$$ and giving it back????
And there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Those are the words of a new-age airline pilot who's compensation expectations have been altered by airline management. JetBlue has created the modern era "B" scale with its EMB rates of pay. In August of 1991, thirteen years ago an American Airlines F-100 CA made $142.72 per hour. A JetBlue equivalent will bag $89.00 per hour at year 12. Now the rest of the industry has finally given in to the low cost operators. My question. Will you guys rise up and defend the profession?

Conman
Maybe your right maybe your wrong. Only time will tell. There are no 5 year EMB-190 Captains right now let alone a 12 year one. So who cares what the pay listed beyond year 5 is? Once the aircraft starts making money and jetBlue raises the pay on the EMB-190 comensurate with industry standards would you be man enough to admit you were wrong? I wonder?

 

[conman]

So who cares what the pay listed beyond year 5 is? Once the aircraft starts making money and jetBlue raises the pay on the EMB-190 comensurate with industry standards would you be man enough to admit you were wrong? I wonder


You should care what the pay is beyond year 5. If you are allowed to participate in negotiations I promise JB will be making all of their arguments based on those numbers.


All due respect but your second sentence shows how naive pilots really are. Look at FedEx and UPS. These are two companies that are highly profitable. Ask their pilots how easy their contract negotiations are/were.

With respect to your last point it would be my pleasure to admit I was wrong. Unfortunately JB has set the 100 seat standard and it isn't pretty. Look at the USAir 100 seat rates, the NWA and DL 100 seat proposal.

 

[zonker]

Did you take a gander at what Delta management wants as a top rate for the B756? It's less than what Airtran is making to fly the 717/737. Are you going to trash the Delta pilots too?

Kind of difficult to "defend the profession", when jet fuel is in excess of $100 a barrel.

 

[conman]

Kind of difficult to "defend the profession", when jet fuel is in excess of $100 a barrel.


Dear Zonker,


Why is it that Airline employees feel obligated to subsidize cheap airline tickets with their salaries?????

 

[G4G5]

jbucpt]none...........AA is on the brink of bankruptcy, (pilots will have to give back) SWA only made a profit due to intelligent management hedging fuel....airtran will post a lost for the year ( pilots will have to give back) and UPS is not in the passenger carrier business.. i.e. little competition....

the only thing pilot unions proved the last 4 years is how quick it can GIVE BACK.... that 2% was money well spent???

Sorry, I can't live in your fantasy world, I like to use facts. How much have the Airtran pilots given back? How much has mgt come asking for? Please provide your sources. WSJ, NYTimes?

How much have the SWA pilots given back? The last time I checked they were still the highest paid 737 pilots around. But please feel free to provide data to the contrary.

When pilots apply for a job they don't care if it's UPS, FEDEX or Jetblue. Get over it, a cockpit is a cockpit.

AA is the best run legacy. They have over $3.5 bilion in free cash (Jetblues market capt in under $2 billion which is lower then AA's. Now add in the fact that pension reform for the legacy carriers is in Congress as we speak. Just another little fact AA has contributed over $230 million towards the pension this year and they are the highest funded legacy carrier.

The last time I checked Even with the give backs you refer to 12 year AA MD80 ca's are making $154 an hour vs $139 for 12 year B6 A320 Ca's. Even with the give backs that you refer that's still $15 an hour higher then the highest B6 rates. Now lets not forget AA still has a 12.25% (1.25% A fund and 11% b fund) VS Jetblues (ZERO A fund and ZERO B Fund).


whats smarter, starting at a lower rate gradually going up or taking it in the A$$ and giving it back????

What smarter NEVER having the money and hoping that mgt will just come knocking on the door offering to just give you a raise. Or getting the money up front and then having to give it back? I'll take AA's, UPS. Airtrans, SWA (or any other independent pilots union) rates VS yours, any day of the week

 

[zonker]

Kind of difficult to "defend the profession", when jet fuel is in excess of $100 a barrel.


Dear Zonker,


Why is it that Airline employees feel obligated to subsidize cheap airline tickets with their salaries?????

Who said that they do?

 

[G4G5]

Conman
Maybe your right maybe your wrong. Only time will tell. There are no 5 year EMB-190 Captains right now let alone a 12 year one. So who cares what the pay listed beyond year 5 is? Once the aircraft starts making money and jetBlue raises the pay on the EMB-190 comensurate with industry standards would you be man enough to admit you were wrong? I wonder?

AA 12 year CA MD80 rate is $154 an hour VS JetBlues $139.
AA 12 year MD fo rate is $105 VS Jetblues $76

Now add in the 12.25% retirement VS Jetblues NOTHING. This is after AA's give backs.

Hypothetcal raises are real nice in the bizzaro world. Ask a UAL 747 ca about it. When dealing in truths you have to deal with what the contract rate is, not what yo think it will be.

 

[semperfido]

Why is it that Airline employees feel obligated to subsidize cheap airline tickets with their salaries?????

it is a free market. if you don't want the job--don't take it. why should airline employees be treated any differently than the guy that works a job at xyz corp?

 

[conman]

it is a free market. if you don't want the job--don't take it. why should airline employees be treated any differently than the guy that works a job at xyz corp?


Airline Pilot jobs in this country have zero threat of being shipped overseas.

WE WILL SIMPLY DO IT TO OURSELVES!!!!!!

 

[80drvr]

AA 12 year CA MD80 rate is $154 an hour VS JetBlues $139.
AA 12 year MD fo rate is $105 VS Jetblues $76

Now add in the 12.25% retirement VS Jetblues NOTHING. This is after AA's give backs.

You're understating the A Fund as a percentage of pay. It's 1.25% X Final Average Earnings X Years of Service. This ends up costing the company somewhere between 4-7% of earnings to fund.

 

[G4G5]

You're understating the A Fund as a percentage of pay. It's 1.25% X Final Average Earnings X Years of Service. This ends up costing the company somewhere between 4-7% of earnings to fund.

You are correct, my point was that it is an additional source of compensation available to the AA pilots, even after the give backs. Something that the Jetblue pilots don't get.

Now granted they get profit sharing, which has been good for them so far. It's something the AA pilots don't get but it's not guranteed and their is no reasonable track record to base any realistic calculations from. For their sake I hope it keeps coming.