Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[GogglesPisano]

Occam, you should consider a career in writing, if you haven't already done so.

 

[FDJ2]

poor pay? next time you make an ignorant statement, take the time to compare our airbus rates with the rates of your "brothers" at united, usair, and northwest. (dont forget to add the time and a half after 70 hours.)

thanks for the suggestion. ill go back to clean the cabin when your done bending over. (oh, i forgot, there is nothing you or ALPA can do about it, but be upset)

I see you like to compare your rates to those of bankrupt airlines or recently bankrupt airlines. However you conveniently forgot to compare your rates to another bankrupt carrier, DAL. We fly similar gauge equipment? Why don't you compare our 737-800 rates with your A320 rates. We're in bankruptcy and according to you we've bent over. Surely you must have a higher rate. I didn't think so.

Get back to cleaning the cabin.

 

[Oh-ryan]

What's wrong with ALPA is easy. The warts are right there, on the end of it's nose. They're an easy target. So easy, the disgruntled pilots looking for someone to blame attack ALPA like Rush Limbaugh goes at nachos and narcotics. I think that's why Rez and few others (like me) speak up to defend ALPA.

There is plenty of ALPA bashing on these threads, but I just wanted to hear some criticism coming from ALPAs two biggest cheerleaders on these boards... and you have done that. As I said earlier, it's difficult to find credibility in someone or something that fails to recognize their own faults.

Thanks for your informative and candid posts.

 

[Occam's Razor]

As I said earlier, it's difficult to find credibility in someone or something that fails to recognize their own faults.

You've hit on an interesting issue. I think pilots that run for ALPA office don't do it to change their company...they do it to change their union.

I know I did.

100% of the ALPA officers and reps I've known (many!) jumped into it in a effort to "fix" the faults they perceived within ALPA. None of them got involved to "raise the pay rates on the 757!". They did it to change the way ALPA tried to get the pay rates raised.

The average pilot doesn't believe he is.

ALPA is run by pilots. It's our biggest strength, and our most vexing weakness. It helps us because pilots are natural skeptics and dyed-in-the-wool pragmatists. In negotiations or representation, pilots constantly play "what if?" and think of the worst case scenario.

It also hurts us because we need information to assuage our skepticism, and I don't think ALPA puts enough emphasis on communications with the membership, so 66,000 skeptics ("pilots") are utterly convinced that ALPA isn't trying. The responsibility for that communications rests with the local reps and the MEC's...not in Herndon. ALPA National should focus on keeping the resources in fighting trim, pushing our issues on Capitol Hill, and providing strategic planning (eg: the idea of syncing all contracts nation-wide to gain leverage).

Once a pilot gets neck-deep in ALPA work, they concentrate on accomplishing the mission, and tend to blow off communications with the membership. That's because pilots are goal-oriented doers (if we weren't, we wouldn't have gotten through all the tests, checkrides, physicals, interviews, etc required to get here). Telling others what you're doing while you're focused on actually doing it is tough, and very few pilots I've known can pull it off.

BIG weakness!

Still better than the alternative...

 

[Dave's kid]

I thought pilots ran for office to spend an all expense paid week in Vegas at the Alladian drinking like Mel Gibson.

 

[Lear70]

2. Another problem:

Timing. Want leverage? Have every ALPA contract in the country amendable at the same time. Items such as Brand Scope require massive amounts of leverage. The type of leverage we would have if all of us were standing on the lever at the same time. Our CEO's are amoral twerps who don't always use what we give them to the benefit of the profession. Exhibit A: Delta pilot cuts led to SimpliFares. (I'm not picking on DAL pilots here. There's plenty of buffoonery to go around! Anybody seen my Compass?)

To get our contracts sync'd up, every pilot group would have to make Term their #1 or #2 issue. It will also require National ALPA to get more involved at each property. Y'all ready for that? Do that one thing and we end the whipsawing and the ratcheting (see also: "Race to the bottom").

That's about the biggest single point I've agreed with you on in a long time...

The question is how do you force the issue when it comes strike time?

With the Pres able to order any pilot group back to work, what do you think he'd do if the majority of the airlines were facing a shutdown at the same time?

Striking alone we have only a 50/50 chance of being left alone. Striking in those kind of numbers would make the public go SCREAMING to their elected representatives and the white house would be forced to act. What do you plan to do then? Illegally strike anyway per the ATC guys? Worked out really well for them, didn't it?

The BIGGEST fault of ALPA is lack of follow-through. Every single time it comes down to brass tacks, the union pushes its members to sign in a crappy P.O.S. contract that doesn't even come CLOSE to meeting the Wilson Polling numbers.

If that's what you call "expectation management", then indeed, ALPA needs to do a better job. Don't beat the drum to get your members all riled up about a 20% pay raise then come back with 8% and say "This is the best we could do."

No wonder people are p*ssed off. If you SAY you're going to need 20% or your pilots walk, then BY GOD, WALK AWAY when the company fails to meet that mark.

Until ALPA is actually prepared to follow through on their work stoppage claims (which they haven't done in YEARS) stop making those claims. Until then, management will continue their behavior, simply because it has NO penalty attached to it (an actual strike).

 

[Remington]

Most alpa reps I knew got into office because they were the only person that ran, and they wanted paid time-off to booze with the boys in DC and Miami. All were people who most likely got beat-up at the bike rack while growing up. Furthermore, the 4stripe they "earned" was the first position of responsibility they have had in their entire life. After their wife whooped thier a$$ at home, they could come to work, throw that 4th stipe around, run unopposed for office, win, waste our 2%, and hold an "elected" position. Lets face it, alpa is a joke and has no spine. It needs to be put to pasture just like the airplanes of its time.
Don't forget your ALPAPAC contrabution this year. lol. Carry the dems sign and vote republican.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Most alpa reps I knew got into office because they were the only person that ran, and they wanted paid time-off to booze with the boys in DC and Miami. All were people who most likely got beat-up at the bike rack while growing up. Furthermore, the 4stripe they "earned" was the first position of responsibility they have had in their entire life. After their wife whooped thier a$$ at home, they could come to work, throw that 4th stipe around, run unopposed for office, win, waste our 2%, and hold an "elected" position. Lets face it, alpa is a joke and has no spine. It needs to be put to pasture just like the airplanes of its time.
Don't forget your ALPAPAC contrabution this year. lol. Carry the dems sign and vote republican.

Exhibit "B" ladies and gentlemen!

 

[chppr5]

Some of these ALPA haters make me laugh. They talk out of their ass without any facts or understanding of how this union works. Especially the current/ex members. When was the last time you went to an alpa meeting? When was the last time you made a motion to change things at local/national level? (oh wait, thats hard to do when you don't go to the meetings) We are alpa, we have to participate to be effective. When you have 2-3% of the pilot group show up for meetings, how effective do you think we can be? Don't you think management has people hanging around the lobby checking out the attendance at meetings? Don't you think management sees the participation percentages for votes on contracts/etc.? When you have 70-75% of the members vote on something important, management sees that as 25% just dont give a rats ass to take the 25 sec to vote over the phone. Alpa is more than pay scales. Who is fighting cabbotage, foreign ownership on the hill?? (Not management or the non-union carriers) Who fought for tcas, gpws,egpws,crew bunks,min rest,fsap,aqp,etc.? Management? Non union carriers? Consider your 1.95% as an insurance policy for ALPA legal, aero medical. Ask what the dal crew got from alpa when their f/d failed and they didn't comply with atc and got violated. (apla fought the violation and got it nixed) Would your non-union pilot group have got the same conclusion? Would management have offered lawyers to help you out. Ask my co-worker how long he would have been out after cancer treatment without alpa medical if he had to do the foot work/ paper work with management/faa bs. Even other pilot unions use alpa resources. Don't get me wrong, ALPA has its weaknesses, inhouse and most notably the membership. We are all guilty of nonparticipation, that is our weakness and will probably be our downfall. We have to get rid of this finger pointing/i got mine screw everyone else attitude. If some of you guys (and you know who u are) participated half as much as you complain, we would be in pretty good shape. Next time you ask "what has alpa done for me", look in the mirror. Other than writing a check every month, what have you done to change/participate/volunteer for alpa? We need to stick together to strengthen our position, but to look at this board and all the hate, finger pointing,wishing doom and gloom on others, we may be too far gone.

 

[Occam's Razor]

That's about the biggest single point I've agreed with you on in a long time...

See? There's hope for you yet! :laugh: Seriously, even my wife doesn't agree with me all the time...and we're still madly in love.

(Ok...that was kinda creepy)

The question is how do you force the issue when it comes strike time?

Disagree. That's never an issue! If your pilot group has authorized a strike, and the reps vote to reject the final offer at the end of the Cooling Off Period, you strike. We did it in '98 and it wasn't a difficult decision. Comair pilots did it for 89-days in '01.

That's the "force". If management doesn't give you an acceptable offer, you take the legal recourse and wage an economic war with them via a strike.

With the Pres able to order any pilot group back to work, what do you think he'd do if the majority of the airlines were facing a shutdown at the same time?

Which President? I think our current President would intervene if a large number of pilot groups were to reach the end of a Cooling Off Period at the same time. To get there, the NMB would have to declare an impasse. The NMB is appointed by the President. That gives the man in the White House two bites at the apple when it comes to pushing airline unions to accept what management offers.

I think Bush allowed the Comair pilots to strike because Comair (and Delta) management told him they preferred to take the pilots on.

Striking alone we have only a 50/50 chance of being left alone. Striking in those kind of numbers would make the public go SCREAMING to their elected representatives and the white house would be forced to act. What do you plan to do then? Illegally strike anyway per the ATC guys? Worked out really well for them, didn't it?

I guess I don't understand your questions. For a strike to work it has to be 1) legal 2) executed by 99% of the pilots.

The BIGGEST fault of ALPA is lack of follow-through. Every single time it comes down to brass tacks, the union pushes its members to sign in a crappy P.O.S. contract that doesn't even come CLOSE to meeting the Wilson Polling numbers.

If you're familiar with the way the polling is used, then you know it is most effective when it is used to establish priorities, as opposed to specific numbers. It's almost impossible in a large pilot group to reach consensus on a specific number, but it's often easy to establish a set of priorities that can be supported by the entire group.

And let me repeat: You will sign a "crappy" T.A. only when you believe the alternative is worse. If a majority of the pilots feel the T.A. is better than the alternative...it passes. If you have a better method for setting contracts than following the will of the pilot group, I'm all ears!

If that's what you call "expectation management", then indeed, ALPA needs to do a better job. Don't beat the drum to get your members all riled up about a 20% pay raise then come back with 8% and say "This is the best we could do."

No wonder people are p*ssed off. If you SAY you're going to need 20% or your pilots walk, then BY GOD, WALK AWAY when the company fails to meet that mark.

That's where the attention to communications is critical. Contract negotiations are seldom limited to just pay rates. Usually they include work rules, benefits, Scope, and other items. Is an 8% pay raise, with the Trip Hour Credit you want more acceptable than a 20% raise and a crappy THC? Most sections in a pilot contract are shoelaced with other sections. That's where the polling comes in. ALPA "openers" are seldom the final number in the T.A.. The same goes for management's openers. There is a lot of jockeying as both sides try to honor their priorities. ALPA's priorities are established by the rank-and-file, through our reps, in an open process. Management's priorities are set by soul-less druids, in Machavellian fashion, in a windowless dungeon where money trumps ethics.

Until ALPA is actually prepared to follow through on their work stoppage claims (which they haven't done in YEARS) stop making those claims. Until then, management will continue their behavior, simply because it has NO penalty attached to it (an actual strike).

Speaking as someone who has "followed-through" and gone on strike, I find your conclusion factually lacking. Plenty of pilot groups in the last few years HAVE been fully prepared to walk. But let me repeat: The strike must be legal. If a judge prevents your job action, you comply. To suggest otherwise is to start down a slippery slope.

Regardless of the outcome of the negotiating process, there are going to be pilots who will feel their expectations weren't honored. If those expectations are shared by a clear minority...too bad. If they are shared by most pilots, you put the wrong pilots in office. And THAT is something you have control over!

 

[Lear70]

See? There's hope for you yet! :laugh: Seriously, even my wife doesn't agree with me all the time...and we're still madly in love.

(Ok...that was kinda creepy)

Ummm... yeah. it was.

Disagree. That's never an issue! If your pilot group has authorized a strike, and the reps vote to reject the final offer at the end of the Cooling Off Period, you strike. We did it in '98 and it wasn't a difficult decision. Comair pilots did it for 89-days in '01.

That's not the issue I'm speaking about. I'm speaking about the President's ability to force you back to work. Doesn't do much good to strike when 10 minutes later you're forced back to work.

Which President? I think our current President would intervene if a large number of pilot groups were to reach the end of a Cooling Off Period at the same time. To get there, the NMB would have to declare an impasse. The NMB is appointed by the President. That gives the man in the White House two bites at the apple when it comes to pushing airline unions to accept what management offers.

Exactly.

Which President? Doesn't really matter. I've seen first-hand how Mrs. Clinton deals with employees and don't think we'd see any relief from her on a Democratic ticket more than whoever shows on the Republican ticket (and I do believe it's going to be that kind of race). Either way, we're screwed if they're not labor-friendly and order everyone back to work.

I guess I don't understand your questions. For a strike to work it has to be 1) legal 2) executed by 99% of the pilots.

You forget #3. It has to be allowed to play out and not prevented by the President ordering the pilots back to work a la' American Airlines. Remember that one?

If you're familiar with the way the polling is used, then you know it is most effective when it is used to establish priorities, as opposed to specific numbers.

I disagree on that last part. yes, it sets priorities, but it also sets certain dollar ranges that are acceptable for the majority of the pilot group in ranges by seat.

Every Wilson Polling call I've ever received has included percentage raise minimums. ALPA has that data, whether an individual MEC uses it is arguable (although I wouldn't believe you if you told me the MEC never used that data).

And let me repeat: You will sign a "crappy" T.A. only when you believe the alternative is worse. If a majority of the pilots feel the T.A. is better than the alternative...it passes.

Again, let me repeat: the MEC bears a HUGE part in whether or not a T.A. is signed. When Wychor came to the MSA pilots and said, "This is the best we can do", his pilots believed them, even though they were fully ready and able to strike that night.

The same is true at any airline. When your elected representatives come to you and say, "This is the best we can do and here are the alternatives" then proceed to paint a doom-and-gloom picture, the pilots will follow their elected representatives 9 times out of 10. If you were to tell them that it WILL take a strike but you believe the company will capitulate, I guarantee you it'd get a "NO" vote.

How often has a pilot group actually gone AGAINST a T.A. that had the FULL support of the MEC? Not just one or two lone guys, but the ENTIRE MEC saying, "This is great! Sign here!" then it gets a NO vote?

I'd wager not often.

Speaking as someone who has "followed-through" and gone on strike, I find your conclusion factually lacking. Plenty of pilot groups in the last few years HAVE been fully prepared to walk. But let me repeat: The strike must be legal. If a judge prevents your job action, you comply. To suggest otherwise is to start down a slippery slope.

I didn't suggest anything of the sort, and you might find my conclusion factually lacking, but I guarantee you about 40% of the MSA pilots, 30% of the NWA pilots, etc, etc understand EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Too many people allow themselves to be lead by people who often have THEIR OWN best interests at heart and ALPA has ALWAYS had the ability to manipulate their pilot groups' votes. It's about spin, and ALPA has some of the best communications/spin experts in the biz.

Regardless of the outcome of the negotiating process, there are going to be pilots who will feel their expectations weren't honored. If those expectations are shared by a clear minority...too bad. If they are shared by most pilots, you put the wrong pilots in office. And THAT is something you have control over!

Not after the fact. Once the voting is done, you're screwed and it's too late for a recall.

 

[Aviator7576]

timeout

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but I would like to thank OhRyan for changing his avatar <BG>. I feel proud once more to be a former part of the P3 community.

Now back to our normal b*tchin' and moanin'...

Aviator7576

 

[jbucpt]

I see you like to compare your rates to those of bankrupt airlines or recently bankrupt airlines. However you conveniently forgot to compare your rates to another bankrupt carrier, DAL. We fly similar gauge equipment? Why don't you compare our 737-800 rates with your A320 rates. We're in bankruptcy and according to you we've bent over. Surely you must have a higher rate. I didn't think so.

Get back to cleaning the cabin.

im comparing the jetblue rates with other ALPA carriers that fly A320'S. its too bad their ALPA contracts did not protect "their industry leading payrates" (or yours when compared to southwest 737 rates) when the economy went south.

you might be "proud" that your 737 rates are higher than jetblues at the present time. however, if delta kepts losing money every quarter, who knows when you'll stop spreading those butt-checks.

 

[roadrunnerblue]

Does JetBlue care about attracting "quality" pilots going forward? If so, actions need to speak louder than words... I know of two current JetBlue pilots who are seriously considering returning to Netjets - as FOs on Citations.

In the meantime, the "quality" pilots will be looking at SWA, UPS, Fedex and some of the legacies that have or will restart their hiring soon instead of JetBlue. Is that something JetBlue wants or will be proud of going forward? Doubt it. It's all about SIGNAL VALUE and messaging to the pilot community...

First one: NO, JBU has 10.000 Cessna 150 applicants on file (also see the low requirements on the website)

Second one: yes

 

[FDJ2]

you might be "proud" that your 737 rates are higher than jetblues at the present time. however, if delta kepts losing money every quarter, who knows when you'll stop spreading those butt-checks.

Last I checked JBLU wasn't doing too well.

Maybe you could talk some smack about DAL payrates if your rates were actually higher than DAL's for like equipment, but they aren't, so why don't you go on back and clean the cabin like a good boy.

 

[jbucpt]

Last I checked JBLU wasn't doing too well.

Maybe you could talk some smack about DAL payrates if your rates were actually higher than DAL's for like equipment, but they aren't, so why don't you go on back and clean the cabin like a good boy.

another retarded statement from you regarding JBLU. you really need to start reading a business section and not just your ALPA magazine.

now, like a good DALPA bit*ch, keep spreading those butt-checks.

 

[Fins Up]

, so why don't you go on back and clean the cabin like a good boy.

Seriously, you can't tell me that's the best you can come up with.

 

[FDJ2]

another retarded statement from you regarding JBLU. you really need to start reading a business section and not just your ALPA magazine.

JetBlue Swings To A Loss In Q3; Plans To Reduce Growth Rate By Cutting Fleet - Update
Tuesday, October 24, 2006; Posted: 11:47 AM


You were saying.

Go back and clean the cabin son.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lear70/OR-

The problem I see in having all contracts ammendable at teh same time is "jacking up the house". Example.. DAL got great rates off the UAL2000 contracts.

In addition, how can we control that the ammendable contracts will be TA'd at the same?

 

[Fins Up]

JetBlue Swings To A Loss In Q3; Plans To Reduce Growth Rate By Cutting Fleet - Update
Tuesday, October 24, 2006; Posted: 11:47 AM


You were saying.

Go back and clean the cabin son.

Wow, that is one weak arguement.
First of all that headline is more than two months old now.
Second we have been forecasting a loss for a while now but may actually come out of this year in the black (unlike a lot of other airlines).
Third, we have not cut our fleet - still coming out with net positive aircraft gains for both fleet types.
Fourth, we are still forecasting a good growth rate for 2007.
Lastly, you gotta be kidding me with the "go clean the cabin" thing. Show some originality for crying out loud.