Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[lowecur]

It's Only A Matter Of When

Jeepers, it's all really very simple (as long as mgt has financial & leadership credibility):

Any group of pilots that doesn't put their airline's financial future ahead of their own personal compensation, more than likely sees no long term future for any carrier within the industry. Representation is not bad as long as the manta that the airline comes first is at the forefront. If it get's pushed to the back because the pilot's believe management is either inept or overpaid, then the revolving door just keeps rotating as it screws itself into the ground. I think Jetblue is trying to communicate that their business model will work and everyone will be rewarded if the model is allowed to evolve. There will be bumps and blips along the way, but either you believe in this company or you believe that they are no better than the past history of this business. I for one think they are, and whether or not representation comes on the property...........all the pilot's should do what they can not to get caught up in an adversarial standoff.

imp: ​

 

[Andy]

Did you take your recall yet?

Deferred almost as long as I could. Will be recalled 22 Jan; immediately on mil leave. Will return summer 2009; just in time for contract negotiations.

 

[Andy]

now thats funny!! i've been very impressed with the way ALPA has fought/negotiated all the cutbacks the last 5 years. i.e. loss of retirement, loss of pay, loss of jobs and allowing DELTA PILOTS to have an increase in duty/flight time. very, very impressive. (well worth the 1.95)

its my opinion that when? a union is voted in a B6, it will be in-house. ALPA'S record (of when it really counts) proves that ALPA protection is a fallacy.

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

I never said ALPA. I said organized representation. One with a CBA.

As for B6 vs the legacies, B6 hasn't started hitting difficult times until now. The legacies have had hard times since 9/11. With the annual increasing debt load at B6 and rapidly increasing interest payments, B6 is just entering the multiple years of rough seas.
When times get really tough, management will make decisions autonomously without a CBA.

As for the Delta flight time issue, I vehemently oppose the increase in duty time. As does DAL ALPA. DAL management went to the FAA; the FAA ruled that it was legal. I don't know what choices DAL ALPA has in the matter; it sounds like there is not much that they can do.

Nice quote. I was never a big fan of Dubo; too much over the top. Whiteford was too far the other way. I have very few complaints about Bathurst; he's not too extreme on either side of the spectrum.

 

[FDJ2]

What do you want them to do, perform an illegal job action and all get fired?

The bottom line is that the JBLU pilots were supporting a change for the worse, the Delta pilots weren't. It was forced upon them and they have no legal recourse in the short run.

Bingo!!!! Jetblue Cubby is too dumb to realize the difference.

 

[FDJ2]

no i am not real stupid or real bitter.

Yes you are.

however, let me get this straight. ALPA goes to the FAA and complains that jetblue conducted a "study" on fatigue in hoping to increase duty time.

Yes

then the FAA allows DELTA to increase THEIR duty/flight time using information from the same individual who conducted the jetblue study. and the only response DALPA says is" we're very upset" AND does nothing to prevent THEIR PILOTS from flying those LONGER DUTY/FLIGHT PERIODS.

That's true. That's the only recourse available. You do understand the limitations of the RLA don't you? Or perhaps I ought to ask if you even know what the RLA is.

Getting back to your original unmiformed statement:

"ALPA brothers at DELTA had no problem increasing their time without a study."

That is obviously BS and DALPA's objection, which you conveniently left out of your cut and paste job, was in the article you quoted.

To sum it up: you are about as smart as your rubber bow tie and two left shoes suggest, Bozo. Now, go curl back up in your corner, and continue chewing on your toenails, because you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[FDJ2]

now thats funny!! i've been very impressed with the way ALPA has fought/negotiated all the cutbacks the last 5 years. i.e. loss of retirement, loss of pay, loss of jobs and allowing DELTA PILOTS to have an increase in duty/flight time. very, very impressive. (well worth the 1.95)

And after all those cuts, those ALPA pilots at Delta, working at a bankrupt carrier, still have better pay rates, a better LTD plan, better legal representation and a better pension plan than JBLU pilots.

 

[Hank Hill]

its my opinion that when? a union is voted in a B6, it will be in-house. ALPA'S record (of when it really counts) proves that ALPA protection is a fallacy.

You're entitled to your opinion. I couldn't disagree more. An in-house union would be a joke. It would be completely ineffectual and a waste of time.

I predict ALPA....by the end of the next year.

 

[PCL_128]

Ask the FedEx pilots what they thought of their in-house union. They now affectionately refer to it as the "student council."

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

If you want to wage a war of "quotes" I've got some management quotes that would put your efforts to shame.....

 

[Occam's Razor]

ALPA has faults?

Sure! It's an organization run by pilots who consult with lawyers and accountants. Add eye of newt to that recipe and you've got a bona fide cauldron of faults.

So what?

The only reason you choose something that causes concern is if the alternative is worse. Period.

Why do we vote for pay cuts?

Alternative is worse.

Why would you belly your aircraft into a swamp?

Alternative is worse.

Why would you vote ALPA on your property?

The alternatives - no union ("I'll have the butt rape, please!"), or in-house union ("Hey Mikey! Light a match so I can see where this gas is leaking from!") - are worse.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Occam-

Good point...

I am not sure if Oh-Ryan will my repy per his request...

In that post there is no mention of specific issues such as Age 60, or scope, etc...

The issues will always be there. The problem is effectiveness. And what we can control. We can control who we place as leaders and our own particaption.

If we don't show up to LEC meetings how can we be informed and led....

If we don't choose to engage how can we get performance.....

 

[jbucpt]

And after all those cuts, those ALPA pilots at Delta, working at a bankrupt carrier, still have better pay rates, a better LTD plan, better legal representation and a better pension plan than JBLU pilots.

thats all well and good. i would agree that the size, life, and economies of scale of delta warrant higher benefits than a 7 year airline.

however, i just hope that when ALPA is voted in at jetblue, and the economy goes south, the new union wont bend over and give back most of their new payraises, retirement,and "job protection" like your brotherhood did.

oh, thats right, "there was nothing ALPA could do". once again proving the point that when times get tough "union brotherhood and protection" is a fallacy.

 

[sandman2122]

It's all about the $$$. I suspect the guys that don't want a union at Jetblue are cheap...............that's the problem at FDX - all of the non-members are cheap free loaders too...........

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

oh, thats right, "there was nothing ALPA could do". once again proving the point that when times get tough "union brotherhood and protection" is a fallacy.

What do you intend to do then when times get tough..... smile?

 

[FDJ2]

thats all well and good. i would agree that the size, life, and economies of scale of delta warrant higher benefits than a 7 year airline.

Nice job at rationalizing your poor pay and benefits. Maybe when you make more, with better benefits than a Delta pilot you can shoot your mouth off, but for now, why don't you go back and clean the cabin.

 

[Oh-ryan]

Occam-

Good point...

I am not sure if Oh-Ryan will my repy per his request...

In that post there is no mention of specific issues such as Age 60, or scope, etc...

The issues will always be there. The problem is effectiveness. And what we can control. We can control who we place as leaders and our own particaption.

If we don't show up to LEC meetings how can we be informed and led....

If we don't choose to engage how can we get performance.....

Rez,

Sorry for the late reply. I was a little disappointed in that I think your gripes about ALPA were orientated more towards ALPA failing to educate its members as well as failing to properly get the message out. I was hoping for a little more discussion on how ALPA has failed to uphold the best interests of its members in contract negotiations and specifically the RJ issue. If you believe that they have always done that, then I will have to take your word for it. I simply do not have experience with unions. I fly for Uncle Sam, but I do not doubt that commercial aviation is in my future. I do think that in all industries unions have done more good than bad, but I also know that a union is not always the answer. I just wanted your thoughts on what's wrong with ALPA instead of your pro-ALPA point of view that we often see. Thanks.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I just wanted your thoughts on what's wrong with ALPA instead of your pro-ALPA point of view that we often see.

What's wrong with ALPA is easy. The warts are right there, on the end of it's nose. They're an easy target. So easy, the disgruntled pilots looking for someone to blame attack ALPA like Rush Limbaugh goes at nachos and narcotics. I think that's why Rez and few others (like me) speak up to defend ALPA.

1. The biggest problem is the nature of our function.

The power of ALPA's trade union function is often mitigated by factionalism within the confederation of pilot groups. Want an example? Age 60? It's an "abortion issue" (spelled "W-E-D-G-E"). Rather than focus on the issues that are easy to stand united for or against (cameras on the flight deck, TWIC cards for pilots, foreign ownership, cabotage, Railway Labor Act reform, etc), the membership, LEC's, and MEC's carve us into segments that distract us from our goal(s).

Example:
6 years ago ALPA endorsed Gore for President, citing Bush's response to an ALPA-generated questionaire that focused on issues that 99% of us understood and held a common position on. Our reaction to that endorsement was, "ALPA's wasting my dues money supporting that guy!" and "I have more important issues than my job!"

Whenever I read a post on this Forum from somebody lamenting the fact that ALPA doesn't act "tough" like the _______ union (Longshoremen, Teamsters, etc), I always wonder if the membership is prepared to act like those unions. Go to an SEIU or IBT lodge meeting and ask for a show of hands of those who voted for Bush. (Need a calculator? Use one hand...)

2. Another problem:

Timing. Want leverage? Have every ALPA contract in the country amendable at the same time. Items such as Brand Scope require massive amounts of leverage. The type of leverage we would have if all of us were standing on the lever at the same time. Our CEO's are amoral twerps who don't always use what we give them to the benefit of the profession. Exhibit A: Delta pilot cuts led to SimpliFares. (I'm not picking on DAL pilots here. There's plenty of buffoonery to go around! Anybody seen my Compass?)

To get our contracts sync'd up, every pilot group would have to make Term their #1 or #2 issue. It will also require National ALPA to get more involved at each property. Y'all ready for that? Do that one thing and we end the whipsawing and the ratcheting (see also: "Race to the bottom").

3. Which leads me to another problem:

Poor expectations management. We're pilots, and ALPA is a tool we use, just like radar, Dispatch, and ATC. ALPA is not penicillin. It will not cure a bad economy, or a Labor-hating government. It ain't ALPA's fault you gotta take your shoes off at security...or even go through it in the first place! If Congress had put as much energy into saving pensions as they did trying to get Terry Schiavo's feeding tube re-inserted, we'd be a happier bunch. ALPA can't fix that. (see #1 above)

Many of us that pay 1.95% of our income to ALPA expect Woerth/Prater to swoop in like Captain America and fix our owies. "The chump captain I'm flying with checked-out in 5 years, and I been in this #$%@ seat for 8! ALPA's screwing me!"

Al Haynes was faced with a situation he didn't cause, with a malfunction nobody had faced before. He did the best he could and saved 184 lives. 101 people died. He is a hero to us.

Duane Woerth faced a situation he didn't cause, with a malfunction nobody had faced before. He did the best he could. He is "ALPA". We expected him to save us.

Would a pensionless UAL pilot like to give us the perspective that perhaps the families of one of the "101" might have? Your pension did not survive the malfunction. Is ALPA a hero or a villian?

ALPA needs to beat the expectations drum. Your career in this profession is not guaranteed. Your earnings and quality of life will vary...the goal is to minimize the losses and maximize the gains. There is no Immunity Idol on this island. If you retire with one uniform in your closet, without an ulcer, you're one of the "184". If you're one of the little turtles that doesn't make it to the sea, apportion your blame in the proper percentages. 1.95% to ALPA sounds about right.

 

[jbucpt]

thats all well and good. i would agree that the size, life, and economies of scale of delta warrant higher benefits than a 7 year airline.

Nice job at rationalizing your poor pay and benefits. Maybe when you make more, with better benefits than a Delta pilot you can shoot your mouth off, but for now, why don't you go back and clean the cabin.

poor pay? next time you make an ignorant statement, take the time to compare our airbus rates with the rates of your "brothers" at united, usair, and northwest. (dont forget to add the time and a half after 70 hours.)

thanks for the suggestion. ill go back to clean the cabin when your done bending over. (oh, i forgot, there is nothing you or ALPA can do about it, but be upset)

i would not get to cocky about your delta bene's, after reading the business sections today, you should start studying USAIR'S PAYRATES AND BENEFITS.

can you say "catcus"? oh, im sorry, its "usair".

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

Sorry for the late reply. I was a little disappointed in that I think your gripes about ALPA were orientated more towards ALPA failing to educate its members as well as failing to properly get the message out. I was hoping for a little more discussion on how ALPA has failed to uphold the best interests of its members in contract negotiations and specifically the RJ issue. If you believe that they have always done that, then I will have to take your word for it. I simply do not have experience with unions. I fly for Uncle Sam, but I do not doubt that commercial aviation is in my future. I do think that in all industries unions have done more good than bad, but I also know that a union is not always the answer. I just wanted your thoughts on what's wrong with ALPA instead of your pro-ALPA point of view that we often see. Thanks.

oh-Ryan-

If you look to Occams Razor's #237, I'll defer to that. It is quite simple and rather difficult at the same time. In order to be effective it all comes down to the membership and leadership.............

 

[skykid]

poor pay? next time you make an ignorant statement, take the time to compare our airbus rates with the rates of your "brothers" at united, usair, and northwest. (dont forget to add the time and a half after 70 hours.)

Why not just compare a couple of turds? The next round of guys who don't know their compensation sucks are going to be willing to fly airbuses for less than 100K/year.