Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[oldxfr8dog]

Credit, say it slowly...C R E D I T.

:beer:

Uh, Oh, yeah... I knew that!
What were the legs, Snoop?

 

[IHATE PLANES]

Sickened

All of us at B6 should have known this was coming. Once MGMT. decided on a road show you know the news is not good. I mean who do you need to blast if the news is positive.

Bottom line-- I thought it would be some time down the road before I saw ALPA or IBT on the premmesis, but now I see the light that they are coming and coming strong.

It's really a shame, but the door is open.

The Prob is that B6 mgmt still wants to run this airline like the little wall street darling or mom and pop show where the rampies and rude JFK agents are supposed to be a pilots equal. I'm sorry, but its just not true. We quit they loose 15K in training, they quit- then you just go and hire some other Queens sub culture bum and move on.

Fare pay, different Benefits and a betterr 401K is not crazy to yurn for.
I never thought I would welcome outside representation so much.

 

[F18-FDX]

. I'd prefer in-house, but if ALPA is the most expeditious route, so be it.

Obviously that is your collective choice to make. Personally I feel we are much better off at FedEx with ALPA than we were with the in-house FPA. A lot of guys may feel in-house is better at this point, which is fine but it will take a long time to build up the resources needed to start the process of getting you guys a contract you deserve. With ALPA you will walk into legal, financial, and a myriad of other resources needed to get the process moving. I think ALPA resources were instrumental in making our new contract what it is. I know their in-depth company analysis was spot on as far as what the company could afford, as were many other aspects and we walked in from day one with a credibilty we had never seen before, we knew what management's position would be at almost every step and were able to raise the BS flag when it needed to be raised. No, ALPA isn't perfect, but no union will be and there are a lot of advantages to joining a group with a common goal, a war chest and resources like those of ALPA. My $0.02. Over to you guys, good luck we are all behind you...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No, ALPA isn't perfect, but no union will be ...

Is any group or organization perfect? Are you, the reader perfect? Is your family perfect?

Another consideration is national and international issues. An in house union will only be effective with local issues. And that effectiveness could be argued.

Will you have a voice on CapHill?

Will you have a voice with open skies implementation?

All of these forces will effect every pilot in the US.

 

[Mach92]

One thing everyone has failed to mention. It really doesn't matter ALPA, IBT or in house. You have to have a MEC with balls and a pilot group ready to follow. We did it at NetJets.

 

[Spectre]

You need a lot to learn...

Really? What did unions do for pilots at UAL, NWA, AMR, DAL, USAIR after 9/11? Reduction in pay. Lost pensions for others. Furloughs. JBLU in the same period: NO furloughs and no pay cuts (30% pay raise in October 2001). Recent pay raise for E190 guys. Maybe we have something good over here you need to learn about.

Our pilots are given 6000 shares of JB stock options when they are hired. With the recent splits, some of us have over 20,000 shares. Since all pilots here are shareholders, we should think more long-term about overall company prosperity rather than short-term compensation. We all can make a lot more than our hourly pay if JB succeeds. Given the numbers for 2007, that just might happen.

 

[Spectre]

Blue folks,

I think you found out this "princess" you've been sleeping with the last 5-6 years really turned out to be the "slut" your buddies warned you about.

Believe it or not, most of us aren't saying "we told you so...". Instead...we'll remind you...we dated her once too. She (management) has proven that sometimes she just doesn't really love us after all...

As an outsider who was always hopeful this JB thing with solid management and pilots working together could work, I was somewhat surprised at how latest pay thing worked out.

I hear a lot of ALPA bashing... I just cashed a bonus worth almost a months pay last month--get another one next June. Got bumped off most of my Dec trips for training, and my vacation next month will knock me off most of my January trips. Our healthcare premiums were locked down contractually as well. So far guys...ALPA and FedEx have been very very good to me. A profitable cargo/express company and an LCC are different, but this "auto-anti union" bias overlooks some of the good you could do working together. Your union--ALPA or local--will be what you guys make it to be and will be as solid as your pilot group. After 14 years military I was as union resistant as anyone--but at least in my case my experiences have been nothing but positive with our FDX MEC. I wish you guys the best whatever route you choose...

Enjoy it now. Your industry is ripe for a low cost package company to emerge. That's American capitalism and it's only a matter of time. Work rules and productivity will have to change to compete.

 

[Falconjet]

Yeah, Spectre, it was the union that furloughed all of those guys.

It is all so clear now. Fng union.

FJ

 

[furloughed dude]

Spectre,

Get a clue son. The stock options are about worthless to anyone that isn't in the top 400 or so. I've got 1800 I'd sell you for 50 bucks...

 

[J32driver]

Really? What did unions do for pilots at UAL, NWA, AMR, DAL, USAIR after 9/11? Reduction in pay. Lost pensions for others. Furloughs.

DUMBEST ARGUMENT EVAR !!!!!!!!!

 

[Spectre]

Yep, you're right. That raise was 5 years ago. Meanwhile, we have taken a 15 to 20% pay cut just due to the fact that we have no COLA. And those pay cuts apparently will continue (and continue to compound) indefinitely. No one at the road shows even MENTIONED some kind of COLA for the pilot group. No doubt that would have to be run by all the other work groups for their sign off on it first!

We also have no retirement to speak of - certainly nothing like the 10% B Fund Airtran has. Our healthcare plan can easily cost $500 a month on average when you count up premiums, deductibles, percentages, etc. - it is the joke of the industry and D2 just hinted it's gonna get worse!

Not to mention we were promised SWA wages when we got hired on. Gee, whatever happened to that?

Just talked to my buddy at NetJets. He gets a full match on his 401k up to the max contribution and his health coverage is just plain FREE! Plus, he said he'll gross about 145k this year and he is a skipper on the Citation! They also have fantastic work rules over there. He credits their awesome contract to the efforts of their union and the ability of the pilot group to hang tough and show some ballz while the negotiations dragged on. Food for thought.

I don't know what it takes to convince you Bayou. Guess you are one of those "We're just lucky to have a job" guys. I've met plenty throughout this industry and I don't believe those types are respected by anybody, including management.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. But I believe you are way in the minority right now. Representation of the pilot group is coming, and coming fast. Probably ALPA. Just remember, collective bargaining is your RIGHT - many people fought and bled and put their azzes on the line to give you that precious right!! Time for all the pilot group to stand together as brothers. We're in this thing together!

I think you are the minority. There are many former furloughed ALPA pilots here at JB and I'm pretty sure they are not here because ALPA helped them get here. I for one am not a believer in unions. JB has a unique position among airlines with no unions on the property.

What prevails at unions are the senior guys get everything and the junior guys lose it all. Again, no furloughs and no pay give backs since this company started. I'm senior here and believe if bad times hit again, we will do everything (including reducing our flight hours) to take care of each other to not have any furloughs.

 

[Flyboi]

.....

 

[Spectre]

Spectre,

Get a clue son. The stock options are about worthless to anyone that isn't in the top 400 or so. I've got 1800 I'd sell you for 50 bucks...

Yeah, when I first got here my strike price was over 45 bucks/share. Now, they are positive and less than 13 bucks/share with splits. You can't please everyone but I think 75% of the pilots here will make a lot of dough next year. You don't have to be in the top 400. Some new hires this year got their shares for less than 9 bucks a share...

 

[Spectre]

Yeah, Spectre, it was the union that furloughed all of those guys.

It is all so clear now. Fng union.

FJ

No, let me clear it up for you. In this case, THE UNIONS DID NOT HELP PROTECT JOBS, PAY, OR PENSIONS. That's just the facts. You can blame management or 9/11 or an act of GOD if you want for the furloughs. It doesn't matter. Unions did not stand up to management in any case.

 

[Hank Hill]

Our pilots are given 6000 shares of JB stock options when they are hired. With the recent splits, some of us have over 20,000 shares. Since all pilots here are shareholders, we should think more long-term about overall company prosperity rather than short-term compensation. We all can make a lot more than our hourly pay if JB succeeds. Given the numbers for 2007, that just might happen.

Spectre, any JB pilot whose options are significantly in the black has either already liquidated them and invested the coin safely somewhere else...or they are complete idiots. Just as were the mopes at Enron.

Spectre = management shill

 

[Caveman]

Rez & F18-FDX,

I'm still an ALPA member in good standing and ALPA's aeromedical, legal and financial analysts are extremely good assets. My experience with ALPA politics and labor negotiations has been more good than bad, but there was plenty of bad. The main reason I would even consider ALPA again is because at B6 we don't currently outsource any of our flying to a regional partner. That removes the potential for a conflict of interest where national supports one group to the detriment of the other.

No one can deny the financial strength of ALPA and the fact they can get us up and running with a local fairly quickly. OTOH, SWAPA seems to be the ideal example of pilot representation. Their relationship with SWA is firm but cordial. It seems to work. ALPA still has an overly adversarial aspect that I find hinders meaningful dialogue.

I'd prefer a JBPA but I don't want it to take 3 years to get our act together. We need representation now, not in 2010.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez & F18-FDX,

No one can deny the financial strength of ALPA and the fact they can get us up and running with a local fairly quickly. OTOH, SWAPA seems to be the ideal example of pilot representation. Their relationship with SWA is firm but cordial. It seems to work. ALPA still has an overly adversarial aspect that I find hinders meaningful dialogue.

I'd prefer a JBPA but I don't want it to take 3 years to get our act together. We need representation now, not in 2010.

SWAPA's relationship with SWA is because of SWA management. They have decided to make unions there partners. ALPA is ready to be a partner with all managements. But management runs the show. It is thier airline and they have operational control. Thus, is ALPA "adversarial" becuase it is in thier nature or becuase they are tired of giving concessions only to see the Corp Elite give themselves bonuses with the givebacks they just handed over. Leadership starts at the top by those who have control of the company. Can you really hold any union accountable for setting the tone? That would be like saying the FO is responsible for setting the tone in the cockpit.

oh, so you want jet technology when it comes to representation and not baby steps in a Dayton bicycle shop.....

 

[hatetoadmitit]

DUMBEST ARGUMENT EVAR !!!!!!!!!

And with one simple post you beat him!

 

[zkmayo]

No flame intended, but what would any of you have done differently since 9/11 at your respective pilot groups to keep from what happened (furloughs, pay cuts, fleet reductions) from happening?

I honestly mean it as a thought provoking question, not rhetorical. Its not an easy one to answer.

 

[tomgoodman]

Good ol' boys

From the "ancient history" files: Charles Dolson, the pilot who organized ALPA at Delta, succeeded founder C.E. Woolman as CEO of the company. In today's adversarial environment, that kind of thing would never happen. Or maybe they were unusual leaders...