Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[lowecur]

I don't see where he said the "pilots are taking more of the burden." In a nutshell like many companies, when they do well managers receive bonuses and employees get a slap on the back. When managers screw up or make mistakes employees feel the brunt of it, pilots in general will take the burden in most cases.

Why? Next to management pilots usually make the most, and when pilots or managers need to take cuts where do you think managers will look? At themselves? Hardly, that is when they give themselves bonuses.

Why? Well, they need to retain the talent to help pull the company out of the tailspin. You know, the tailspin they put the company in in the first place.

This has been going on for decades, and not just in this industry.

AAflyer

You gave me spin not answers. Given the financial health of Jetblue the last 3 years (tons of debt/small profit...), just what would it have cost the company to make the pilot group happy? In my opinion, everyone bit the bullet including mgt. Give the pilot group more money, then everyone else wants their share at a time the company can least afford it.......hence one big unhappy group with a company that is marginally viable.

Like I said, the ranks have been infiltrated by the legacy mentality. Most have no idea or care how to keep a company viable. Their primary thought is we have sacraficed for many years and we want ours now and to hell with whether or not Jetblue is on the right track.

Jetblue's BOD is watching this very carefully. They have listened to the two Dave's for many years on their way to run an airline and handle employees. Since I think consolidation will happen this year, the option for a private equity buyout and mgt change is something they will listen to very carefully. I think the capital infusion will give them the latitude to take the airline to the next level. The adversarial hammer has dropped and there's no sense trying to play nice anymore. Afterall, it's not personal....it's just business.

imp: ​

 

[AAflyer]

You gave me spin not answers. Given the financial health of Jetblue the last 3 years (tons of debt/small profit...), just what would it have cost the company to make the pilot group happy? In my opinion, everyone bit the bullet including mgt. Give the pilot group more money, then everyone else wants their share at a time the company can least afford it.......hence one big unhappy group with a company that is marginally viable.

Like I said, the ranks have been infiltrated by the legacy mentality. Most have no idea or care how to keep a company viable. Their primary thought is we have sacraficed for many years and we want ours now and to hell with whether or not Jetblue is on the right track.

Jetblue's BOD is watching this very carefully. They have listened to the two Dave's for many years on their way to run an airline and handle employees. Since I think consolidation will happen this year, the option for a private equity buyout and mgt change is something they will listen to very carefully. I think the capital infusion will give them the latitude to take the airline to the next level. The adversarial hammer has dropped and there's no sense trying to play nice anymore. Afterall, it's not personal....it's just business.

imp: ​

No Spin at All,

Just an observer from the outside and one who has been through 6 airlines.
I would have to look at their financials before I would write anything here. However the discontent is in the "promise", mor than the raise IMHO.

JB has been making promises for while, however they have not lived up to them as the pilots have been saying. Apparently Dave and Dave have been saying the past year that they understand the pay is low on the E-190, and that would make it up to the pilots, they would make them whole. Well, they didn't. In fact the amount seemed more like a slap in the face to many. They shouldn't have promised anything.

They would probably have received a better reponse with a candid and sincere " We can't give the raise right now with our financial picture, we aprreciate your hard work and when we turn the tide we will give you and the other employee groups the raises you deserve."

I am not a Jetblue pilot so I can answer what it would take to make them happy. Hopefully someone will answer that for you.

As for spin, where can you reference management has bitten the bullet?

What is a legacy mentality? I don't think anyone would wish their company out of business for a raise, however managers at all companies including he LCCs certainly TAKE their share of the pie don't they. Whether sitting with a damaged balance sheet like AMR, on in BK like NWA and UAL last year managers take or give themselves the bonuses, and salaries they feel they deserve. They protect their pensions while wiping out the promises they made to their employees. The make hasty decisions without a lot of thought as they will be protected. Employees are viewed more as item on the balance sheet not asset which they can be. This is not spin, this is what happens EVERY DAY!

I certainly do not condone or agree with all work actions in the past, but these realtionships are like marriages. It takes TWO people to destroy a marriage. If you can not see that than you are blind or a fool.

AAflyer

 

[Occam's Razor]

The employee groups are in this together with mgt and they have to live with the good and bad decisions.

Whoa!

Do I have to post a list of all the mgt folks that have cashed in after flying an airline into the ground?

I'll give you 10% accuracy on your thesis...in that all will have to live with the consequences of bad decisions by mgt. But please, PLEASE don't suggest that mgt "deciders" suffer a proportionate amount compared to rank-and-file employees.


Ain't so.

 

[bravodude]

My two cents:

It doesn't matter what union you have if you don't have strong leadership and a unified pilot group behind them (local leadership in ALPA's case). That being said ALPA provides a very strong tool box especially compared to a fledging independent union with limited resources.

In less than two weeks ALPA will have a new leader at the top who with a new vision. I for one think you should give ALPA a shot. Ok flame away.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think everybody should read "flying the line".
Pilots today blame alpa but its those same pilots that just roll over and take it in the shorts. The reason alpa is so bad now is because no pilot will stand up and fight. All the legacies should have gone on strike and then we would n't be in this mess.

 

[lowecur]

Whoa!

Do I have to post a list of all the mgt folks that have cashed in after flying an airline into the ground? I'm referring to Jetblue in this instance. Yours is the legacy mentality I'm speaking about. The jaded distrust of mgt no matter where you work now.

.....

imp:​

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey, George Bailey!...we're not talking about an isolated incident, or about any specific airline. If JetBlue craters, will Neeleman come out of it better or worse than the average (or even BETTER than average) line dawg?

NEXT!

 

[lowecur]

No Spin at All,

Just an observer from the outside and one who has been through 6 airlines. And you think that jaded experience can put you in a position to judge Jetblue mgt? I would have to look at their financials before I would write anything here. However the discontent is in the "promise", mor than the raise IMHO. You don't need to work for a big 5 accounting firm to see that Jetblue's financials are skewed with debt and little income the last 3 years.

JB has been making promises for while, however they have not lived up to them as the pilots have been saying. Apparently Dave and Dave have been saying the past year that they understand the pay is low on the E-190, and that would make it up to the pilots, they would make them whole. Well, they didn't. In fact the amount seemed more like a slap in the face to many. They shouldn't have promised anything. I think they were trying to give them a good faith first step, but all it did was raise the hackels of the 320 guys and get the 190 guy's underware in a wad. Like I said yesterday, it's sibling rivalry and you can't do one without the other. That was a strategic mistake and they should have just waited until mid-year 2007 to do the whole group. If the projected numbers pan out by midyear, I think the whole group would have gotten a long overdue adjustment.

They would probably have received a better reponse with a candid and sincere " We can't give the raise right now with our financial picture, we aprreciate your hard work and when we turn the tide we will give you and the other employee groups the raises you deserve." That's it.

I am not a Jetblue pilot so I can answer what it would take to make them happy. Hopefully someone will answer that for you. Some are saying a COLA. When???..three years ago? Jetblue's cash would probably be significantly less if that were the case today, and they would probably be furloughing.

As for spin, where can you reference management has bitten the bullet? Name me one other mgt group that has foregone bonus' and raises in 2005. Hopefully, they will do the same at the end of 2006.

What is a legacy mentality? I don't think anyone would wish their company out of business for a raise, however managers at all companies including he LCCs certainly TAKE their share of the pie don't they. 6 airlines?? I think anyone who has been through that can more than testify what a legacy mentality is. Whether sitting with a damaged balance sheet like AMR, on in BK like NWA and UAL last year managers take or give themselves the bonuses, and salaries they feel they deserve. Stupid, but you can't lump Jetblue's mgt with them, can you?? They protect their pensions while wiping out the promises they made to their employees. The make hasty decisions without a lot of thought as they will be protected. Employees are viewed more as item on the balance sheet not asset which they can be. This is not spin, this is what happens EVERY DAY! You just defined what a legacy mentality is.

I certainly do not condone or agree with all work actions in the past, but these realtionships are like marriages. It takes TWO people to destroy a marriage. If you can not see that than you are blind or a fool.

AAflyer

The pilot groups at all airlines will always have an adversarial relationship with mgt. SWAPA likes to claim that they have a smooth relationship with mgt (and they do comparitively speaking), but even they are not immune to putting themselves above the company. We havent' seen their other side yet if the company ever sinks into the red. My guess is they will turn on mgt very quickly and believe me they will offer no help until the cash is drained off. I have no faith that the airline business will ever make money like other business'. Too many ego's that think they are the straw that stirs the drink. That little piece by the Allegiant pilot was refreshing. You can see that a relationship can prosper when things are small enough where you don't have the hassles of flying to airports where you're not sitting on the taxiway for 45 minutes to take off from your main hub. Used to be that way at JFK....no more.

imp:​

 

[Lear70]

"Spin" is defined by taking someone's words and twisting them around to mean something completely different, not to mention unintended, by the original party.

Here is your "spin":

Like I said, it's only a matter of time before representation plants itself at Jetblue, but to say the mgt is putting more of a burden on the pilots than any other group at Jetblue is nonsense.

Now, pray tell me, where the FU*K do you get THAT out of what he said?

Who's the "Spin Doctor" here? (hint, that would be you).

Given the financial health of Jetblue the last 3 years (tons of debt/small profit...), just what would it have cost the company to make the pilot group happy?

Hmmm... I'm a betting man, and I bet that a COLA raise of 10% for all the Airbus guys and a promise to revisit it next year if JBLU was profitable would have quieted the majority of the rest of the pilot group.

Pretty cheap to keep peace in the family, ALPA will be a long, bitter fight that will end up costing D&D a LOT more than just giving them the pickle now.

In my opinion, everyone bit the bullet including mgt.

Well, your opinion means exactly squat since you can't BACK UP THAT CLAIM. Please, show me how D&D deferred their stock options this year. Show me where they took a pay cut or have gone consecutive years without some type of raise (bonuses, base wage increases, stock options).

Hint: you can't. Every year their overall compensation package has gone up. That's a FACT. So don't give me anything about management biting the bullet.

Give the pilot group more money, then everyone else wants their share at a time the company can least afford it.......hence one big unhappy group with a company that is marginally viable.

Well, they got that anyway, didn't they? Ayuh.

Like I said, the ranks have been infiltrated by the legacy mentality.

And what, exactly, is THAT? The Legacy mentality? Please...

Most have no idea or care how to keep a company viable. Their primary thought is we have sacrificed for many years and we want ours now and to hell with whether or not Jetblue is on the right track.

That's not what they are saying at all... again, you're putting your own SPIN on statements.

What they DID say was that they are entitled to AT LEAST COLA raises, otherwise they take a pay CUT year after year and that's NOT what they signed on for. If a company can't afford to pay the SAME wage, taking inflation into account, then maybe they don't need to be in business.

We are PILOTS. It's not our JOB to keep the company viable. That's management's responsibility, and pilots should NOT bear the financial burden of making sure the company stays in the black, especially when their wages are ALREADY below the industry average.

Hell, I'd be mad, too.

 

[J32driver]

Some are saying a COLA. When???..three years ago? Jetblue's cash would probably be significantly less if that were the case today, and they would probably be furloughing.


imp:

No. No one is saying 3 years ago. Everyone is saying make up for the last 3 years now that you've turned the ship around and are heading in the right direction. And oh yeah... don't put all of my pay raise into my 401K, it would be nice to buy diapers with now... and don't insult my intelligence by playing the "moving numbers" game with me.

You are getting better, but you still don't get it. The more I'm watching you post over the years, the more I think you are internal JetBlue. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if you weren't a rather high placed "insurance salesman" located in the Poeple department.

 

[lowecur]

Hmmm... I'm a betting man, and I bet that a COLA raise of 10% for all the Airbus guys and a promise to revisit it next year if JBLU was profitable would have quieted the majority of the rest of the pilot group. So you wouldn't have given the COLA three years ago to the 320 guys? You think that just giving the COLA along with the 190 raise would have kept the pilot group at bay? The 190 raise was supposely a slap in the face, but with a promise to revisit mid year, it would have satified the whole group? Certainly makes sense to me, but we will never know at this point, will we?

Pretty cheap to keep peace in the family, ALPA will be a long, bitter fight that will end up costing D&D a LOT more than just giving them the pickle now. You're right. It could cost them their jobs and a buy out from private equity.

Well, your opinion means exactly squat since you can't BACK UP THAT CLAIM. Please, show me how D&D deferred their stock options this year. Show me where they took a pay cut or have gone consecutive years without some type of raise (bonuses, base wage increases, stock options). Didn't I say bonus' and raises at the end of 2005? More spin.

Hint: you can't. Every year their overall compensation package has gone up. That's a FACT. So don't give me anything about management biting the bullet. I'd definitely get rid of the bastards. There has to be someone around who will run this thing without stock options. Maybe you!


Well, they got that anyway, didn't they? Ayuh.


And what, exactly, is THAT? The Legacy mentality? Please... You just answered your own question. Just read your response.


That's not what they are saying at all... again, you're putting your own SPIN on statements. I'm like a dradle.

What they DID say was that they are entitled to AT LEAST COLA raises, otherwise they take a pay CUT year after year and that's NOT what they signed on for. If a company can't afford to pay the SAME wage, taking inflation into account, then maybe they don't need to be in business. It ain't over till the fat lady sings, so you may get your wish.

We are PILOTS. It's not our JOB to keep the company viable. Excuse me but it is your job to help keep the company viable. You want all the benefits and none of the risk. Just before the last downturn take a look at legacy compensation packages and then tell me with a straight face that had nothing to do with the viability of the companies. That's management's responsibility, and pilots should NOT bear the financial burden of making sure the company stays in the black, especially when their wages are ALREADY below the industry average. Can we have some cheese with the Whine.

Hell, I'd be mad, too.

Sounds like you are already. Now go kick the dog and open a bag of cheese doodles to make yourself feel better.

imp:​

 

[AAflyer]

The pilot groups at all airlines will always have an adversarial relationship with mgt. SWAPA likes to claim that they have a smooth relationship with mgt (and they do comparitively speaking), but even they are not immune to putting themselves above the company. We havent' seen their other side yet if the company ever sinks into the red. My guess is they will turn on mgt very quickly and believe me they will offer no help until the cash is drained off. I have no faith that the airline business will ever make money like other business'. Too many ego's that think they are the straw that stirs the drink. That little piece by the Allegiant pilot was refreshing. You can see that a relationship can prosper when things are small enough where you don't have the hassles of flying to airports where you're not sitting on the taxiway for 45 minutes to take off from your main hub. Used to be that way at JFK....no more.

imp:​

Jaded? You ASSUMED because I have been through six airlines I am jaded? Hardly, all things considered I am doing pretty well.

Well, I will admit you have some financial understanding of the airline industry, however so do I, in fact so do many people. Some companies actually pay these people lots of money to through around words like CASMS, RASMS, RPMS and "labot costs". I can do the same thing as they do as I have seen you do.

Where you and many other analysts lack understanding is on the operational side of the equation. You can never comprehend what we do and why we have been rewarded so richly in the past. You ASSUME by participating on a message board, or looking up front in the cockpit while you board one of our jetliners you "think" you grasp what it is we do.

Until you have walked on this side of the airport your arguments are very weak, very one-sided, and extremely pro management anti-pilot. I am guessing it is a mater of "pilot" envy. You never attained what many of us have and deep down that troubles you. May I recommend seeking counsel from Doctor Phil.


AAflyer

P.S. Thanks for participating, you do bring a little amusement to this board.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The pilot groups at all airlines will always have an adversarial relationship with mgt.

Why do you suppose that is? Not to get too preachy here, but perhaps the landscape in corporate America is too much of a level playing field. You know...like the Serengheti. The lions have an advantage based on their position in the food chain. The zebras survive only when they stick together...and even then there are losses.

SWAPA likes to claim that they have a smooth relationship with mgt (and they do comparitively speaking), but even they are not immune to putting themselves above the company.

Important Distinction: The pilots ARE THE COMPANY! The employees of an airline are the company. Management is just one element of the whole. Airplanes don't get passengers from LGA to ORD...the employees do! It takes a team effort, with all elements functioning properly. The people responsible for keeping that team working properly are the managers. They are supposed to lead the team. For this, they receive more compensation. That's cool.

The problem starts then managers manage instead of lead. They do this to get better results for their section, department, or company. "Results" in this case are indicators that make them look like successful managers, not necessarily good leaders. Things like "good morale" are hard to put on a resume, hence they don't increase your value (spelled M-O-N-E-Y) to others who might hire you.

Which brings me back to my point that managers ain't the company. I was here long before my CEO was...and I'll be here long after he's cashed out, moved on, and started pi$$ing on someone else's morale.

I expect CEO's to make more than pilots, for the same reason I expect pilots to make more than flight attendants. What I don't expect is for their compensation to be based on, often...nothing. Put up good numbers: get millions. Put up bad numbers: still get millions. Crush morale to get good/bad numbers: ___________ (guess what goes here!).

We havent' seen their other side yet if the company ever sinks into the red. My guess is they will turn on mgt very quickly and believe me they will offer no help until the cash is drained off.

It's not too difficult to predict how both management and employees will react to a change in profit.

I have no faith that the airline business will ever make money like other business'.

Probably because it's a different kind of business, huh? It sells a perishable commodity that costs money to NOT sell. It's more capital-intensive than any other commercial enterprise with the possible exception of the nuclear power industry. It's arguably the most regulated commercial operation in the US.

Too many ego's that think they are the straw that stirs the drink.

The airlines haven't cornered the market on that concept, but we seem to have more than our fair share of those types.

That little piece by the Allegiant pilot was refreshing. You can see that a relationship can prosper when things are small enough where you don't have the hassles of flying to airports where you're not sitting on the taxiway for 45 minutes to take off from your main hub. Used to be that way at JFK....no more.

It's easier to lead a small group than a large group. (note the verb)

 

[Lear70]

Sounds like you are already. Now go kick the dog and open a bag of cheese doodles to make yourself feel better.

LOL - nah, I'm not mad... and I NEVER kick the dog, he's my buddy. The cat's another story.

I AM, however, glad I didn't take the Blue Dart my buddy offered early this year (probably would have if I hadn't already been on Sim 5 here), and I feel for all my JB friends over there who really bought into the "one big happy family" line. Money is money, and D&D proved that to be a complete farce and, like Albie said, that's really, really sad to see.

So if wanting to AT LEAST be able to afford my SAME house payment and my SAME car along with buying diapers and other stuff previously mentioned as the years go by makes me a confirmed "legacy carrier syndrome" victim, then yup, I'm guilty.

I FULLY expect my salary to go up as the cost of living goes up (you know that whole CPI and inflation thing). I don't think that's being greedy, I think that's called "providing for my family WITHOUT being greedy."

Somehow I think you're in the minority on this thought that pilots who are working for an airline which is NOT losing money should take a pay cut every year.

I'm like a dradle.

That's pretty funny... LOL, yes you are.

Excuse me but it is your job to help keep the company viable.

No, it's not. MY job is to come to work every day, rested and ready to fly, then fly the airplane to 100% of my ability, staying current on policies, procedures, and getting back in the books enough to handle the emergencies as I was taught. Period.

My job is NOT to take financial penalties to help management manage the airline. If so, I'd be happy to do it, as long as the 6-figure salaries, stock options, and bonuses accompany such a job description.

If you were a line pilot you'd understand that.

 

[Hank Hill]

Hmmm... I'm a betting man, and I bet that a COLA raise of 10% for all the Airbus guys and a promise to revisit it next year if JBLU was profitable would have quieted the majority of the rest of the pilot group.

You're 100% right on this point. That's all it would have taken. I'm still in shock that management didn't figure this out. What was the whole point of the PCG if they coudln't have come to this same conclusion and made the case for it to management?

 

[doh]

It's likely you don't have a clue what the "fair shake" in Iraq is.

Cobra, you missed his point. You can't get a picture of Iraq from the SFC because they are so biased in their opinion that they are unable to write a complete story. The same can be said about the JB message board. He is not making a statmement about the war, just about how bias distorts accuracy. Please, lighten up Francis!

 

[AlbieF15]

Flyboi,

My metaphor may have been a bit crude, but I was trying to convey to the pilot group that we are on your side, and we've seen similar pain elsewhere.

I have always believed in Jetblue's leadership. I "almost" passed on FedEx in early 2002 to go there, but realized that FedEx was just too good of a fit for my family to risk what "might be..." at Jetblue. I talked with guys on the line there that are all very senior now--I would have been +/- about #275 had I gone there. I probably pestered 10 of those top 200 guys for their insights and inputs as I weighed my options. I liked every single person I met at Jetblue--line pilots, flight attendents, HR folks...and mangement. Adding to the atmosphere was the pay raise approved in the Fall of 01 AFTER 9/11. It was a very special kind of company.

Since then, I have made a lot of money helping folks get ready for interviews there. My loyalty, therefore, it to THOSE clients and not necessarily to Jetblue mangement. Doesn't mean I have to pull against them--rather--I hope and continue to hope they find a way to work together and protect what was (until recently) a very unique culture in a very jaded industry.

Recently I've helped several of my former JB clients prepare for interviews at other places--they are leaving JB. I've also had several guys pass on taking classes after they were hired--going to fractionals instead. The trust and atmosphere I saw back in 2001 is gone--its a different company. It certainly doesn't mean JB is done--or this cannot be worked out.

I think I would have been happy in 2001 at a non-union carrier. I joined FPA and later ALPA because I knew at MY company that was ALSO the right thing to do. What I've seen so far has been good--at least at my company. I hope whatever angle the JB pilots take, they get a solid COLA raise, healthcare coverage, and a vote on work rule/FAR limitations.

I don't any of that makes bad sense for them or the company...

And...as a businessman...my Jetblue business dropped off quite a bit this year. Why? I don't think some of the clients thought $350-375 was worth spending on a "temporary" or "gap filler" job. Although I still get some folks who want to work long term there, many are now going there planning only to stay until they get the call from CAL, SWA, UPS, or FedEx. Trust me--getting JB back to a desired "career" status airline won't just help the guys and girls there...it would be good for my business too.

Sorry if my "slut" metaphor got under your skin. I think my record with the folks at Jetblue speaks for me about how I feel about the JB guys on the line.

 

[A350]

Albie:

Glad to hear you have it so good.....all that pay for no work......

As you put it, however, working for FedEx and a low cost carrier are apples and oranges......

The way the passenger carriers work, they will never, ever see the pay and bennies you have now, union, or not.

A350

 

[thebest]

ALPA= The race to the bottom! Here we go............................

 

[Flyboi]

Sorry if my "slut" metaphor got under your skin. I think my record with the folks at Jetblue speaks for me about how I feel about the JB guys on the line.

No dog here, so I certainly don't care enough to allow that "under my skin". I just found it interesting someone who made a good coin off of candidates (ala Kit Darby) would refer to the golden egg as a bunch of "sluts" and doesn't even work there. Was the word "slut" included in any of those TMAT's?

 

[instructordude]

Sorry if my "slut" metaphor got under your skin. I think my record with the folks at Jetblue speaks for me about how I feel about the JB guys on the line.

Nothing wrong with that brother.