Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[737 Pylt]

Blue folks,

I think you found out this "princess" you've been sleeping with the last 5-6 years really turned out to be the "slut" your buddies warned you about.

Believe it or not, most of us aren't saying "we told you so...". Instead...we'll remind you...we dated her once too. She (management) has proven that sometimes she just doesn't really love us after all...

As an outsider who was always hopeful this JB thing with solid management and pilots working together could work, I was somewhat surprised at how latest pay thing worked out.

I hear a lot of ALPA bashing... I just cashed a bonus worth almost a months pay last month--get another one next June. Got bumped off most of my Dec trips for training, and my vacation next month will knock me off most of my January trips. Our healthcare premiums were locked down contractually as well. So far guys...ALPA and FedEx have been very very good to me. A profitable cargo/express company and an LCC are different, but this "auto-anti union" bias overlooks some of the good you could do working together. Your union--ALPA or local--will be what you guys make it to be and will be as solid as your pilot group. After 14 years military I was as union resistant as anyone--but at least in my case my experiences have been nothing but positive with our FDX MEC. I wish you guys the best whatever route you choose...

Albie:
Well said.
I might add, I'm jealous that you're at Fed Ex, and can you help a brother out!
Bushy might just have seen this coming as well....He's a pretty intelligent. He got out when the sh1t was about to hit the fan at mother D! The "no furlough clause" was about to be used to wipe our collective behinds, and he didn't want to be the one to lay of close to 1700 (the origional #) pilots so he got his lump and split to JB.
Sorry for the thread hijack!
737

 

[F16mjb]

BIGMOTORMOUTH,

Why air dirty laundry? Isn't this what the JB fourm is for? Maybe you need support from JB basher to make you feel good.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT

 

[Hank Hill]

As I think about things going forward...

When did our raise come, retroactively? A couple of months after 9/11... right at the time the other airlines started furloughing in droves...

Yep, you're right. That raise was 5 years ago. Meanwhile, we have taken a 15 to 20% pay cut just due to the fact that we have no COLA. And those pay cuts apparently will continue (and continue to compound) indefinitely. No one at the road shows even MENTIONED some kind of COLA for the pilot group. No doubt that would have to be run by all the other work groups for their sign off on it first!

We also have no retirement to speak of - certainly nothing like the 10% B Fund Airtran has. Our healthcare plan can easily cost $500 a month on average when you count up premiums, deductibles, percentages, etc. - it is the joke of the industry and D2 just hinted it's gonna get worse!

Not to mention we were promised SWA wages when we got hired on. Gee, whatever happened to that?

Just talked to my buddy at NetJets. He gets a full match on his 401k up to the max contribution and his health coverage is just plain FREE! Plus, he said he'll gross about 145k this year and he is a skipper on the Citation! They also have fantastic work rules over there. He credits their awesome contract to the efforts of their union and the ability of the pilot group to hang tough and show some ballz while the negotiations dragged on. Food for thought.

I don't know what it takes to convince you Bayou. Guess you are one of those "We're just lucky to have a job" guys. I've met plenty throughout this industry and I don't believe those types are respected by anybody, including management.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. But I believe you are way in the minority right now. Representation of the pilot group is coming, and coming fast. Probably ALPA. Just remember, collective bargaining is your RIGHT - many people fought and bled and put their azzes on the line to give you that precious right!!

Time for all the pilot group to stand together as brothers. We're in this thing together!

 

[spinproof]

Ummm, ever heard of SWAPA?

Yes the above statement is in referece to the fact SWAPA hasn't had to be forceful in any negotiations. management seems to be on the the same page as your representative labor group.

 

[F18-FDX]

Hows that work, do you have a list of procedures they pay for or is it a % thing or what? Curious.

We didn't reinvent the wheel or anything, it's a healthcare plan like any other except the difference is the company can't just raise premiums if they feel like it. I won't paste the entire thing obviously but here's an important excerpt from the 3rd paragraph of this section.

"All Insurance Plans are incorporated by reference into this Agreement. Notwithstanding any language in an Insurance Plan to the contrary, the amendment of an Insurance Plan as it applies to pilots (including but not limited to any change in premiums, coverage or benefit levels) is subject to the consent of the Association in accordance with the procedures applicable to the amendment of the Agreement"

I pay about $90/mo. for me & my family, in 2008 it goes up to $120 per the contract.

 

[Flyboi]

Blue folks,
I think you found out this "princess" you've been sleeping with the last 5-6 years really turned out to be the "slut" your buddies warned you about.

Interesting comment from someone who benefitted financially coaching prospects on how to best "sleep with the slut".

 

[AAflyer]

Yes the above statement is in referece to the fact SWAPA hasn't had to be forceful in any negotiations. management seems to be on the the same page as your representative labor group.

Interesting point, IF SWA were to perform poorly in the future the 100 million dollar question is how would labor relations remain? I applaud SWA and the relationship they have forged, however the are hardly immune from what AA,UAL,DAL, JB or anyones has/is going through.

I remember a few years ago when the SWA FAs were putting out full page ads in the Dallas paper asking "Where is the Luv?"

In the end, wether you are working at Fed Ex, UAL, AA, Air tran, JB, or even SWA, managements first concern is to the shareholder or investor. When times are good relationships can be as well, however like individuals in life we see the "real" person (or company in this case) when the sh1t hits the fan.

Good Luck,
AAflyer

 

[lowecur]

Blue folks,

I think you found out this "princess" you've been sleeping with the last 5-6 years really turned out to be the "slut" your buddies warned you about.

Believe it or not, most of us aren't saying "we told you so...". Instead...we'll remind you...we dated her once too. She (management) has proven that sometimes she just doesn't really love us after all...

As an outsider who was always hopeful this JB thing with solid management and pilots working together could work, I was somewhat surprised at how latest pay thing worked out.

You seem like a fairly intelligent guy, so in your iniminable wisdom please describe the proverbial screwing that you are insinuating and how Jetblue mgt could have done it differently taking into consideration their poor mgt choices in the last 3 years. In other words, mgt has put the company in the financial shape they are in by poor decisions in route planning, growth, and fuel hedging, but that aside the pilots group should have been given a better contract during these tumultuous times....is that it in a nutshell?

I'm sorry Albie but you make no sense what so ever. The employee groups are in this together with mgt and they have to live with the good and bad decisions. Will they?.....I doubt it. Like I said, it's only a matter of time before representation plants itself at Jetblue, but to say the mgt is putting more of a burden on the pilots than any other group at Jetblue is nonsense.

imp: ​

 

[AAflyer]

You seem like a fairly intelligent guy, so in your iniminable wisdom please describe the proverbial screwing that you are insinuating and how Jetblue mgt could have done it differently taking into consideration their poor mgt choices in the last 3 years. In other words, mgt has put the company in the financial shape they are in by poor decisions in route planning, growth, and fuel hedging, but that aside the pilots group should have been given a better contract during these tumultuous times....is that it in a nutshell?

I'm sorry Albie but you make no sense what so ever. The employee groups are in this together with mgt and they have to live with the good and bad decisions. Will they?.....I doubt it. Like I said, it's only a matter of time before representation plants itself at Jetblue, but to say the mgt is putting more of a burden on the pilots than any other group at Jetblue is nonsense.

imp: ​

I don't see where he said the "pilots are taking more of the burden." In a nutshell like many companies, when they do well managers receive bonuses and employees get a slap on the back. When managers screw up or make mistakes employees feel the brunt of it, pilots in general will take the burden in most cases.

Why? Next to management pilots usually make the most, and when pilots or managers need to take cuts where do you think managers will look? At themselves? Hardly, that is when they give themselves bonuses.

Why? Well, they need to retain the talent to help pull the company out of the tailspin. You know, the tailspin they put the company in in the first place.

This has been going on for decades, and not just in this industry.

AAflyer

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

In the end, wether you are working at Fed Ex, UAL, AA, Air tran, JB, or even SWA, managements first concern is to the shareholder or investor. When times are good relationships can be as well, however like individuals in life we see the "real" person (or company in this case) when the sh1t hits the fan.

Good Luck,
AAflyer

I agree and would take it a step further, there are a lot of individuals who are out for themselves no matter if the company is doing well or not. This is the part I "hate" about work is that work gets in the way of dealing with people in a way you'd like to. Sometimes I think we're all meant to be self employed and not work for companies.
Good luck JB folks and keep your guard up.

 

[lowecur]

I don't see where he said the "pilots are taking more of the burden." In a nutshell like many companies, when they do well managers receive bonuses and employees get a slap on the back. When managers screw up or make mistakes employees feel the brunt of it, pilots in general will take the burden in most cases.

Why? Next to management pilots usually make the most, and when pilots or managers need to take cuts where do you think managers will look? At themselves? Hardly, that is when they give themselves bonuses.

Why? Well, they need to retain the talent to help pull the company out of the tailspin. You know, the tailspin they put the company in in the first place.

This has been going on for decades, and not just in this industry.

AAflyer

You gave me spin not answers. Given the financial health of Jetblue the last 3 years (tons of debt/small profit...), just what would it have cost the company to make the pilot group happy? In my opinion, everyone bit the bullet including mgt. Give the pilot group more money, then everyone else wants their share at a time the company can least afford it.......hence one big unhappy group with a company that is marginally viable.

Like I said, the ranks have been infiltrated by the legacy mentality. Most have no idea or care how to keep a company viable. Their primary thought is we have sacraficed for many years and we want ours now and to hell with whether or not Jetblue is on the right track.

Jetblue's BOD is watching this very carefully. They have listened to the two Dave's for many years on their way to run an airline and handle employees. Since I think consolidation will happen this year, the option for a private equity buyout and mgt change is something they will listen to very carefully. I think the capital infusion will give them the latitude to take the airline to the next level. The adversarial hammer has dropped and there's no sense trying to play nice anymore. Afterall, it's not personal....it's just business.

imp: ​

 

[AAflyer]

You gave me spin not answers. Given the financial health of Jetblue the last 3 years (tons of debt/small profit...), just what would it have cost the company to make the pilot group happy? In my opinion, everyone bit the bullet including mgt. Give the pilot group more money, then everyone else wants their share at a time the company can least afford it.......hence one big unhappy group with a company that is marginally viable.

Like I said, the ranks have been infiltrated by the legacy mentality. Most have no idea or care how to keep a company viable. Their primary thought is we have sacraficed for many years and we want ours now and to hell with whether or not Jetblue is on the right track.

Jetblue's BOD is watching this very carefully. They have listened to the two Dave's for many years on their way to run an airline and handle employees. Since I think consolidation will happen this year, the option for a private equity buyout and mgt change is something they will listen to very carefully. I think the capital infusion will give them the latitude to take the airline to the next level. The adversarial hammer has dropped and there's no sense trying to play nice anymore. Afterall, it's not personal....it's just business.

imp: ​

No Spin at All,

Just an observer from the outside and one who has been through 6 airlines.
I would have to look at their financials before I would write anything here. However the discontent is in the "promise", mor than the raise IMHO.

JB has been making promises for while, however they have not lived up to them as the pilots have been saying. Apparently Dave and Dave have been saying the past year that they understand the pay is low on the E-190, and that would make it up to the pilots, they would make them whole. Well, they didn't. In fact the amount seemed more like a slap in the face to many. They shouldn't have promised anything.

They would probably have received a better reponse with a candid and sincere " We can't give the raise right now with our financial picture, we aprreciate your hard work and when we turn the tide we will give you and the other employee groups the raises you deserve."

I am not a Jetblue pilot so I can answer what it would take to make them happy. Hopefully someone will answer that for you.

As for spin, where can you reference management has bitten the bullet?

What is a legacy mentality? I don't think anyone would wish their company out of business for a raise, however managers at all companies including he LCCs certainly TAKE their share of the pie don't they. Whether sitting with a damaged balance sheet like AMR, on in BK like NWA and UAL last year managers take or give themselves the bonuses, and salaries they feel they deserve. They protect their pensions while wiping out the promises they made to their employees. The make hasty decisions without a lot of thought as they will be protected. Employees are viewed more as item on the balance sheet not asset which they can be. This is not spin, this is what happens EVERY DAY!

I certainly do not condone or agree with all work actions in the past, but these realtionships are like marriages. It takes TWO people to destroy a marriage. If you can not see that than you are blind or a fool.

AAflyer

 

[Occam's Razor]

The employee groups are in this together with mgt and they have to live with the good and bad decisions.

Whoa!

Do I have to post a list of all the mgt folks that have cashed in after flying an airline into the ground?

I'll give you 10% accuracy on your thesis...in that all will have to live with the consequences of bad decisions by mgt. But please, PLEASE don't suggest that mgt "deciders" suffer a proportionate amount compared to rank-and-file employees.


Ain't so.

 

[bravodude]

My two cents:

It doesn't matter what union you have if you don't have strong leadership and a unified pilot group behind them (local leadership in ALPA's case). That being said ALPA provides a very strong tool box especially compared to a fledging independent union with limited resources.

In less than two weeks ALPA will have a new leader at the top who with a new vision. I for one think you should give ALPA a shot. Ok flame away.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think everybody should read "flying the line".
Pilots today blame alpa but its those same pilots that just roll over and take it in the shorts. The reason alpa is so bad now is because no pilot will stand up and fight. All the legacies should have gone on strike and then we would n't be in this mess.

 

[lowecur]

Whoa!

Do I have to post a list of all the mgt folks that have cashed in after flying an airline into the ground? I'm referring to Jetblue in this instance. Yours is the legacy mentality I'm speaking about. The jaded distrust of mgt no matter where you work now.

.....

imp:​