Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[AlbieF15]

Rez,

You might promote ALPA just a wee bit better if you'd back off just a tad...

If they want us, we are here. If they don't, we'll support whatever in-house group they come up with. Your over the top evangelical pitch won't win the hearts and minds of those on the fence.

Debate is fine...but you thrive on it. Not everyone wants to dicker and banter all the time. Caveman has been very respectful and tried to stay professional. Why don't you give him (and them) a bit of space.

That's coming from a bro who's been paying the 1.95 percent too.

And Duane leaving was good for us. Yes...he did some good work. He was also a $hit magnet. A clean slate every once and a while is a good thing--we aren't a dictatorship or a one party system.

Merry Christmas (seriously...)

 

[jbucpt]

I've reviewed your posts and it basically comes down to... I'd prefer an in house.....cuz. And when I debated national and international issues you won't even respond or address them....

And when I debate the need to have all pilots under one umbrella you don't reply. When the flight/duty times are up for review via congressional hearing, ALPA will show up the facts and with studies... And Congress will reply, well the JB (or whoever) pilots don't seem to have a problem.... Great. Now Congress is using divide and conquer. The forces that will effect our careers is like a tsunami on the horizon. You want to sit on the beach and order another mai tai pretending all is fine or maybe you should move your lounge chair back 50 feet...

I have given compelling reasons. Career threatening reasons.. and you don't reply.



One of ALPA's big problems is it's own members don't even understand how the organization works. And since they've been paying dues for X years they think they are experts. Try addressing the issues with a know it all....



Merry Christmas

then i will reply. one pilot group under the same umbrella is a facade. heres a history quiz for you. how many ALPA Carriers hired ALPA Eastern pilots when they all lost their jobs? how many "scabs" did ALPA pick up over the last decade? what was alpa national's position during the comair strike?

as far as "same umbrella" for flight/duty time. i think your ALPA brothers at DELTA had no problem increasing their time without a study. therefore, congress WON'T be looking at jetblue, they'll be using YOUR ALPA BROTHERS to divide and conquer.

i ask you this about ALPA. How many jobs has ALPA saved in recent memory? How many profitable ALPA carriers are there? How many ALPA PASSENGER airlines are hiring?

Remember, as long as you are paying dues its all good. However, when you're furloughed and not paying 2% you are dead. ALPA will not help you with your mortgage. ALPA will not pay your car payment. however, ALPA will be there with their hand out the second you are recalled.

as a former LEC and contract negotiator i do know how the organization works. thats why i know ALPA IS A BUSINESS. they did not look out for my airline ALPA pilots.

thats why i do not believe ALPA will be voted in at jetblue. too many pilots believed in its fallacy and are now realistic. it is my belief that a in-house union would better serve its own.

what good is ALPA when at the last hours of negotiations it will not back up its pilots?

 

[Ty Webb]

And THAT pretty much sums it up. Good post.

 

[Ty Webb]

The more pilots we have pulling on the same rope, the more effective we will be. Forming an in house union will take away from a goal we all share: Effective Air Line Pilot Careers.

In theory, yes, but in practicality, no.

ALPA already represents a huge contingency of pilots, and they have been largely ineffective in the last 5 years . . . after watching all the carnage that has ensued, the way the whole RJ situation was handled. and the mutual support that was offered to the EAL strikers . . . there are many pilots and many carriers that will never want ALPA on the premises.

What's the solution? To me, it seems pretty obvious. A national Guild or Association that sets minimum pay rates for each seat and each equipment- say comparable to Delta 2001 rates or something similar.

You would still keep your present union, who can always negotiate more, but not less. . . . now you've taken pilot pay largely off the table.

People have talked about one seniority list, but that just isn't workable. At least set some reasonably high pay rates that all airlines have to pay, and it will minimize the whipsawing and the pain of changing carriers, and force managers to manage their way out of the present situation, not do it on the backs of the pilots.

Merry Christmas, all!

 

[Gofish]

Agreed!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

You might promote ALPA just a wee bit better if you'd back off just a tad...

Agreed. To be frank, I am trying to figure out why a member gives 1.95% and then sits back and develops expectations. It is like buying an expensive product, not reading the manual and then getting pissed off the damm thing doesn't work. When asked if the instruction manual was read one gets a blank stare....

If they want us, we are here. If they don't, we'll support whatever in-house group they come up with. Your over the top evangelical pitch won't win the hearts and minds of those on the fence.

Agreed. But let's have good reasoning for a course of action...

Debate is fine...but you thrive on it. Not everyone wants to dicker and banter all the time. Caveman has been very respectful and tried to stay professional. Why don't you give him (and them) a bit of space.

Becuase his agruements equates to "if I ignore the problem it might go away"

That's coming from a bro who's been paying the 1.95 percent too.

All ALPA members pay 1.95%. We all pay taxes too. However, the trick is how does one make the place better... is dues enough? As a union member if one simply pays his dues and says "I've done my share, now union what are you going to do for me?".. What really happens is a union volunteer has to do more work to compensate for his apathy. What if every member had a contributing mentality. Idealistic yes, but think of the effectiveness....

And Duane leaving was good for us. Yes...he did some good work. He was also a $hit magnet. A clean slate every once and a while is a good thing--we aren't a dictatorship or a one party system.

Merry Christmas (seriously...)

Agreed. However, don't think Prater is going to be the cure all. Every leader has his/her faults. Duane had his. Prater will fix many problems but create new ones as well. Nonetheless, we stand by our organization and see it through.

There are many people that don't like the current White House Admin. Or the Clinton years. Do they call for in house gov't? Resign thier citizenship?

Merry Christmas.... (seriously too)

 

[TAWS]

Go on B6 guys - start a "National Guild". Get the ball rolling. You have alot of forward thinking young guys, I think you can do more than you think.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

then i will reply. one pilot group under the same umbrella is a facade. heres a history quiz for you. how many ALPA Carriers hired ALPA Eastern pilots when they all lost their jobs? how many "scabs" did ALPA pick up over the last decade? what was alpa national's position during the comair strike?

I wasn't aware that unions hired employees. I always thought companies hired employees. Is it possible that pilots expect unions to be more than they are?

as far as "same umbrella" for flight/duty time. i think your ALPA brothers at DELTA had no problem increasing their time without a study. therefore, congress WON'T be looking at jetblue, they'll be using YOUR ALPA BROTHERS to divide and conquer.

That maybe. Did DAL ALPA operate rogue? Or did they coordinate behind the scenes? I don't know? You?

i ask you this about ALPA. How many jobs has ALPA saved in recent memory? How many profitable ALPA carriers are there? How many ALPA PASSENGER airlines are hiring?

How many jobs has ALPA protected? Hard to quantify. Through concessionary negotiations, I'd guess that the companies ultimatum of "we will get our cost savings on way or the other" meant drastic furloughs or concessions....

It is better to agree to concessions for all and furlough less, then agree to no concessions and furlough more... yes no maybe?

Remember, as long as you are paying dues its all good. However, when you're furloughed and not paying 2% you are dead. ALPA will not help you with your mortgage. ALPA will not pay your car payment. however, ALPA will be there with their hand out the second you are recalled.

I've been furloughed twice. I always expected the gov't to help when I was furloughed not a union. And I always knew the company furloughed me, not ALPA. Where does the company and the gov't play in your above quote? Why do you expect a union to do the job of a company or the gov't?

as a former LEC and contract negotiator i do know how the organization works. thats why i know ALPA IS A BUSINESS. they did not look out for my airline ALPA pilots.

If you believe that to be true, then it is.... Can you specify so we can understand?

thats why i do not believe ALPA will be voted in at jetblue. too many pilots believed in its fallacy and are now realistic. it is my belief that a in-house union would better serve its own.

all right..

what good is ALPA when at the last hours of negotiations it will not back up its pilots?

If you believe that to be true, then it is.... Can you specify so we can understand?














I am all about controlling what I can. We cannot control the company or the gov't. We can only influence them and convince them. And it can be difficult when they have agendas that are not aligned with our Air Line Pilot Career.

What we can control is our education, information and particaption. In part what that means is when the ALPA staffers negotiate thier own contract we don't disrespect them, like so many of us do.

When the airline industry is seriously flawed and going through massive reorganization, we don't dump the total burden of resposibility on to our union. Especially when gov't and company actions are quite slighted against me... Yet so many of us do.....

I don't take it out on my fellow pilot who is convienently around.... Yet that is what we do...


We all talk about what ALPA should be doing for us, but yet when it comes time to control our own actions we are quite opposite of what we demand from ALPA.....

The fight for this Air Line Career is long from over... in fact its a process not an end.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In theory, yes, but in practicality, no.

ALPA already represents a huge contingency of pilots, and they have been largely ineffective in the last 5 years . . . after watching all the carnage that has ensued, the way the whole RJ situation was handled. and the mutual support that was offered to the EAL strikers . . . there are many pilots and many carriers that will never want ALPA on the premises.

after watching the all the carnage... and that is the union fault?

The whole RJ situation? Ok, maybe it could have been handled better, but you can't force another company to staff pilots who work for another company. what about operational control.

EAL? Let's not forget making Frankie Smooth Talk accountable too...

What's the solution? To me, it seems pretty obvious. A national Guild or Association that sets minimum pay rates for each seat and each equipment- say comparable to Delta 2001 rates or something similar.

Ty.. we have discussed this completely in other threads. If it is pretty obvious then why isn't it so? It might be a great idea but no one has come up with a workable solution.... but lets keep working at it..

You would still keep your present union, who can always negotiate more, but not less. . . . now you've taken pilot pay largely off the table.

If you want to negotiate more then the other side has to be able to negotiate less. thatis why it is called negotiation.

People have talked about one seniority list, but that just isn't workable. At least set some reasonably high pay rates that all airlines have to pay, and it will minimize the whipsawing and the pain of changing carriers, and force managers to manage their way out of the present situation, not do it on the backs of the pilots.

Merry Christmas, all!

How? Shounds like an idea, but how are you going to get managment to agree to that?


And yes Merry Christmas.

 

[Dave's kid]

Why would I want to give ANY union 1.95% of my salary to talk to JetBlue leadership when I can just walk into the office myself?

 

[radarlove]

Because witholding your labor won't affect the management guys you're trying to inflluence. The option to withold all labor makes bells go off and grants you negotiating power. Building a coalition is the reason that labor organizes.

 

[cal73cap]

My two cents:

It doesn't matter what union you have if you don't have strong leadership and a unified pilot group behind them (local leadership in ALPA's case). That being said ALPA provides a very strong tool box especially compared to a fledging independent union with limited resources.

In less than two weeks ALPA will have a new leader at the top who with a new vision. I for one think you should give ALPA a shot. Ok flame away.

He looks like a slob, please John lose some weight!

 

[Contract]

AlbieF15

dont give up brother....Welcome to America. We are not your brothers that you flew with in the squadron. We are guys you grew up with in highschool that just somehow made it to the MAJORS. We do not seek leadership as we have always been our own leaders. What we do seek now is synergy. We acknowledge the fact that we have never been symphonically orcrestrated. We desire leadership and have chosen only the strongest amongst us to lead. To that decision we are still undecided. You Sir, would be considered if you would only acknowledge the fact that our comrades are some of the best you have never chosen to fight amongst. As a matter of fact we have all chosen not to fight useless wars unless we have representation in time of war. IN other words we will not fight blindly. What say you sir?

 

[Contract]

What we say and what we do are basically the same. GO FOR IT!!

 

[Oh-ryan]

If you want to negotiate more then the other side has to be able to negotiate less. thatis why it is called negotiation.



How? Shounds like an idea, but how are you going to get managment to agree to that?


And yes Merry Christmas.

Rez,

I've read your posts on this thread and on others. During the course of reading these posts I've become acutely aware of your pro-ALPA opinions and I have found areas in which I both agree and disagree with you. Your posts are generally very civil, but are often very surgical-like as you pick apart any opposition to your pro-ALPA point of view. Now, all that said, I have a request for you... please provide us with 3 specific problems that exist within ALPA. In your past posts you may have cited some examples, but what I am really looking for here is for you to take that critical microscope of yours and aim it at ALPA.

I ask this because it's hard for me to find credibilty in someone who is quick to point out the faults in others, but fails to recognize their own... and we all have faults. Thanks in advance.