Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[ExpWayVis31]

I paid over $2000 in union dues in 2006, money well spent. So in addition to a COLA increase they also need an extra 1-2% raise to cover dues.

 

[Caveman]

SWAPA's relationship with SWA is because of SWA management. They have decided to make unions there partners. ALPA is ready to be a partner with all managements. But management runs the show. It is thier airline and they have operational control. Thus, is ALPA "adversarial" becuase it is in thier nature or becuase they are tired of giving concessions only to see the Corp Elite give themselves bonuses with the givebacks they just handed over. Leadership starts at the top by those who have control of the company. Can you really hold any union accountable for setting the tone? That would be like saying the FO is responsible for setting the tone in the cockpit.

oh, so you want jet technology when it comes to representation and not baby steps in a Dayton bicycle shop.....

Yes, the union is partly responsible for the tone of the relationship between pilots and management. I'm not new to ALPA and my experience has been that ALPA can be overly adversarial at times. I'm not giving management a pass, but ALPA doesn't always promote open communication either. Their hands are just as dirty as management's. SWAPA does a better job of that IMO. That's why I'd like to see our representation modeled after them. I'll take ALPA, but they are my second choice. I want no part of IBT.

You asked me why I preferred an independent union. I told you. Now, you want to argue with my reasons. I get it. You bleed ALPA red, white and blue. I and others that have some ALPA experience do not. They are not the be all end all of airline unions. They're just the biggest. I'd rather have our own union but I'm willing to tolerate ALPA. FWIW, the fact that Woerthless is gone is a big plus for ALPA. If he were still there I'd be much less inclined to have ALPA on property.

I have no idea what your last sentence is trying to convey. Humor?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, humor on the last part. My apologies if it is weak.

Caveman, understand that national and international forces, including globalization are going to effect every airline pilot in the US.

Sure it takes two in any relationship. And sure ALPA is to blame. But you want to say that the people at ALPA are more to blame than in house people. Or company people? People are people are people. Same in the Marines. And this is your main reason for wanting an in house: you think ALPA is too advisarial. Respectfully, I think this is too presumptious. I can see the logic in having an in house union means more control of the union culture and mentality, but the loss in national and international affairs would be far to great and in my opinion create an ineffectual in house.

In order to protect this profession all of us are going to have to Band together. creating in house unions is a temporary fix and is based on old school thinking. It works for the pre-regulation, non globalized economy.

ALPA? I am willing to trade the name of ALPA for a new union if it meant bringing all pilots under one union. No doubt there is some concern with one union. But the benifits outweight that 10 to one.

Why isn't the APA back? It has been over fifty years. The only reason now is an emotional attachment to idendity.

DW has done plenty to defend this profession. The problem is you don't know it. So you think he has done a crappy job. Again that is his fault and your fault.

Here is a question. Do you believe the issues of globalization, multi-crew licenseing, open skies, foriegn control and ownership are real and if so do you think an in house union can protect your job from that? If they can't then what is the point?

 

[Caveman]

Yes, humor on the last part. My apologies if it is weak.

Caveman, understand that national and international forces, including globalization are going to effect every airline pilot in the US.

Sure it takes two in any relationship. And sure ALPA is to blame. But you want to say that the people at ALPA are more to blame than in house people. Or company people? People are people are people. Same in the Marines.

In order to protect this profession all of us are going to have to Band together. creating in house unions is a temporary fix and is based on onld school thinking. It works for the pre-regulation, non globalized economy.

ALPA? I am willing to trade the name of ALPA for a new union if it meant bringing all pilots under one union. No doubt there is some concern with one union. But the benifits outweight that 10 to one.

Why isn't the APA back? It has been over fifty years. The only reason now is an emotional attacment to idendity.

DW has done plenty to defend this profession. The problem is you don't know it. So you think he has done a crappy job. Again that is his fault and your fault.

Here is a question. Do you believe the isses of globalization, multi-crew licenseing, open skies, foriegn control and ownership are real and if so do you think an in house union can protect your job from that?

ALPA has serious conflict of interest issues between member airlines and has repeatedly chosen to protect some interests to the detriment of others. Woerthless was at the helm while this developed and IMO exacerbated the division amongst similiarly branded groups. Frankly, it's a cluster******************** and he should have been run out of there years ago. Whatever defending of the profession he did was greatly offset by the damage he did.

While you are concerned about globalization, etc, etc, the ALPA house is on fire. Fix the internal problems and then we can talk about the big picture. You're worrying about elephants and you're standing on an ant hill.

Despite all of that I still think ALPA is better than nothing and certainly better than the IBT. I believe an in-house union that is solely concerned about only one pilot group is the best way to go. I'll settle for ALPA if that's the way things play out.

 

[Ty Webb]

Caveman-

Why do you think that ALPA is better than IBT? What other choices are out there other than those two, or being an independent?

 

[PCL_128]

An in-house union would be completely ineffectual at an airline the size of JetBlue. You need a truly huge pilot group (think AA and SWA) with very large salaries to bring in enough money to provide the resources that an in-house union would need to provide even a fraction of the representation that ALPA can provide. Remember, even APA and SWAPA have to pay ALPA for services that they can't provide with their limited resources.

 

[HA25]

Well it certainly is no secret over on the Jetblue pilots message board, so I thought I would post it here. After today's cornholing of the pilots, the union drive is now in full swing.

First meeting with the ALPA recruiter's is in early 2007, with two more meetings scheduled later. Hopefully, a vote by summer and a union of some sort on the property by the end of the year.

There has been a rising voice for a union for the last couple of years, but after today, if you could say anything good at all, it's that this pilot group is finally, mostly unified on this matter.

I look forward to you boys becoming brothers in ALPA, and helping the rest of the industry raise the bar.. It's about time!

Merry Christmas, and may it be the last one without a contract for you!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA has serious conflict of interest issues between member airlines and has repeatedly chosen to protect some interests to the detriment of others. Woerthless was at the helm while this developed and IMO exacerbated the division amongst similiarly branded groups. Frankly, it's a cluster******************** and he should have been run out of there years ago. Whatever defending of the profession he did was greatly offset by the damage he did.

But yet he wasn't run out of there. So why is your opinion not aligned with factual events? Are you right and the ALPA BOD wrong? You might say perhaps that he was run out of here at the recent election. True, in part, but if you knew about the dirty politics of the UAL and CAL MEC it wasn't based on DW's OJP (on the job performance).

And intresting series of events has occured. DW was more connected to CapHill than any other ALPA Prez. Just when control of Congress switch over, ALPA kicks out their connected point man. For the next year, in Congressional Offices one will hear... "Who the hell is Prater? What happened to Woerth?"

While you are concerned about globalization, etc, etc, the ALPA house is on fire. Fix the internal problems and then we can talk about the big picture. You're worrying about elephants and you're standing on an ant hill.

What internal problems? Speak to the issue not rhtoeric.

It seems you have problems at Jb. NWA has problems, so does UAL, so does the Bush Admin. So did the Clinton Admin. So does my church. So does my family. So does the Marines.

Any organization that has people is going to have problems. As members of these organizations we can step up like PROFESSIONALS and work together to solve them or we can pretend that we are "above" the problems and say our member organizations are flawed and call for a new organization.... which will be made up of ...people again...

IOW caveman, you can pretend that you are removed from the problems, you can pretend that the problems doesn't exist or you can pretend that you can make problems go way by creating new organizations...

Some think people equals problem. While others think people equals opportunity. Which are you?

Despite all of that I still think ALPA is better than nothing and certainly better than the IBT. I believe an in-house union that is solely concerned about only one pilot group is the best way to go. I'll settle for ALPA if that's the way things play out.

And what if you belonged to ALPA and were only concerned for one pilot group? And that group was any and all Air Line Pilots.

See, if your in house was only concerned with its own then you will not and cannot survive. In the global economy of the New Air Line Industry you cannot pretend that the jb route structure is the airline industry. Your managment doesn't think that way and if your pilot group does, you will get hammered. Why? Because any airline management, including jb, is cost conscience. And jb, like any management must consider the global comepetitveness of cost. Including labor.

If the the legacy carriers are forced to use foreign labor to fly thier airplanes and US Pilots are forced out you can bet SWA and JB will be forced to consider such a move. How can they not. What that will mean is, ALPA failed to keep foreign labor out of the cockpits of US aircraft and it is only a matter of (very short) time before it happens at jB, SWA, Airtran and AMR. Your in house union will be about as effective as the French army.

Why do I say ALPA has failed? Becuase ALPA is the only pilot organization trying to stop foreign ownership and control.

 

[Lake Alice]

An in-house union would be completely ineffectual at an airline the size of JetBlue. You need a truly huge pilot group (think AA and SWA) with very large salaries to bring in enough money to provide the resources that an in-house union would need to provide even a fraction of the representation that ALPA can provide. Remember, even APA and SWAPA have to pay ALPA for services that they can't provide with their limited resources.

Wrong as usual.

 

[Caveman]

Rez,

You dig Duane, I do not. You are hardcore ALPA, I am not. Let's leave it at that.

TY,

I'd prefer my union to be solely concerned about my airline and nothing else. If that isn't available, I'd prefer my union to be concerned only about my airline and airlines in general. If that isn't possible I guess I'd be able to work with a union that deals with airlines and other labor groups too. It's a matter of priorities. The more competing interests are involved the less priority my particular labor group will get. That's why I prefer independent, ALPA, and the IBT in that order.

PCL,

I don't think we would be completely ineffectual. We could also choose to pay for ala carte services from ALPA.

 

[tailhookah]

An "in house" over at F9 seems to be working just fine... by the way they are 1/2 the size that B6 is now.

Tail

 

[PCL_128]

Wrong as usual.

Care to expound on that?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

You dig Duane, I do not. You are hardcore ALPA, I am not. Let's leave it at that.

TY,

I'd prefer my union to be solely concerned about my airline and nothing else. If that isn't available, I'd prefer my union to be concerned only about my airline and airlines in general. If that isn't possible I guess I'd be able to work with a union that deals with airlines and other labor groups too. It's a matter of priorities. The more competing interests are involved the less priority my particular labor group will get. That's why I prefer independent, ALPA, and the IBT in that order.

PCL,

I don't think we would be completely ineffectual. We could also choose to pay for ala carte services from ALPA.

Or course you will leave it at that... cause you can't argue the issue. Thus this is your best reply?! If you want to ignore ploblems meaning globalization that is your choice. I am not hardcore ALPA. I am hard core Air Line Pilot Career. Whether that career be at jB or any carrier. And whether it be ALPA or another union that represents all.....

Your reply to Ty suggest you have blinders. Myopic.

Your reply to PCL suggest you want to have your cake and eat it too.... Another unrealistic position...

If you want to build your house of straw or sticks you can , but sooner or later you will need bricks....


So what's my deal?

The more pilots we have pulling on the same rope, the more effective we will be. Forming an in house union will take away from a goal we all share: Effective Air Line Pilot Careers. Why? Becuase everything that effects our careers is determined nationally and now internationally. Sure you can effect some change locally via contract negotiations, but that is limited and short term. Whats the point in a great hourly rate when foreign labor will take your job a year later?

When Prater goes before a Congressional hearing, or an ICAO hearing or an European Union hearing he needs to be able to say "I represent every Air Line Pilot in the US!"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Care to expound on that?

Yes.. care to expound on that???

 

[regionaltard]

An "in house" over at F9 seems to be working just fine... by the way they are 1/2 the size that B6 is now.

Tail

Yeah. They sure put an end to that Lynx BS, didn't they?

 

[HA25]

ALPA has the history, the respect in congress, and the big picture... the rest are only a part of the equation. I think that if more of a plus, than minus with ALPA. And if more large airlines went to ALPA, ALPA will be stronger and more of a force for positive change for the profession.

 

[Caveman]

Or course you will leave it at that... cause you can't argue the issue......

I can argue the issues. I choose not to. You asked me why I preferred an in-house. I told you. Now you want to argue with me about it. It's my choice, not yours. I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else. I willingly engaged in a conversation about ALPA vs independent. You've taken it to a different level. You aren't interested in my choice, you just want to tell me why you don't like my choice.

You know, this is exactly why ALPA is disliked by some of us. You guys have one way and that's it. There's no room for people that only half way like ALPA. There's no room for republican pilots. Everybody must contibute to the PAC. Everybody must be in favor of keeping age 60. It goes on and on. Not everybody agrees with you. Nor should they have to. If this is your idea of a recruiting effort you've failed miserably. Taking a condescending and berating attitude towards potential members is only going to alienate them. Mission accomplished.

 

[HA25]

There's no room for republican pilots.

In most ways, I'm VERY conservative and I always struggle with this. I don't necessarily think of myself as a Republican anymore as they don't seem to do anything but provide "lip service" to my core issues, but on the other hand, the Dems seem to be very far to the left on most social issues that I am concerned about.. but the fact remains, that there are more or less no Republicans that are pro-labor (ALPA being just that to them), and the truth is, if we're going to protect our work rules, pay, etc.. the Dems are the best for that. It's a messed up dichotomy and frankly, sometimes I wonder why there isn't a party for the rest of us.. Pat Buchanan was that type of "Republican" .. Pro-labor, pro-life, and pro-family.. but sadly they labeled him a Nazi and railroaded him out of politics..

This is what happens when you buck the establishment.. and this is why I now consider myself an "Independent"

Sadly, it's not all as black and white as the two party system tries to make it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I can argue the issues. I choose not to. You asked me why I preferred an in-house. I told you. Now you want to argue with me about it. It's my choice, not yours. I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else. I willingly engaged in a conversation about ALPA vs independent. You've taken it to a different level. You aren't interested in my choice, you just want to tell me why you don't like my choice.

I've reviewed your posts and it basically comes down to... I'd prefer an in house.....cuz. And when I debated national and international issues you won't even respond or address them....

And when I debate the need to have all pilots under one umbrella you don't reply. When the flight/duty times are up for review via congressional hearing, ALPA will show up the facts and with studies... And Congress will reply, well the JB (or whoever) pilots don't seem to have a problem.... Great. Now Congress is using divide and conquer. The forces that will effect our careers is like a tsunami on the horizon. You want to sit on the beach and order another mai tai pretending all is fine or maybe you should move your lounge chair back 50 feet...

I have given compelling reasons. Career threatening reasons.. and you don't reply.

You know, this is exactly why ALPA is disliked by some of us. You guys have one way and that's it. There's no room for people that only half way like ALPA. There's no room for republican pilots. Everybody must contibute to the PAC. Everybody must be in favor of keeping age 60. It goes on and on. Not everybody agrees with you. Nor should they have to. If this is your idea of a recruiting effort you've failed miserably. Taking a condescending and berating attitude towards potential members is only going to alienate them. Mission accomplished.

One of ALPA's big problems is it's own members don't even understand how the organization works. And since they've been paying dues for X years they think they are experts. Try addressing the issues with a know it all....



Merry Christmas

 

[DH2WN]

I've read most of this thread and it doesn't say what spurred on this behavior.

Are they taking away your benefits? That's what it sounds like.