jetblue EMB-190 pay??!!!

[lowecur]

Jetblue folks

Most of you people still can't see the forest through the trees. Independence Air just stepped into the LCC business from the regional side. Are they a threat to the pay scale?..........no. What is a threat are Mesa, Skywest, and Republic. Republic already has the option to order 190's in lieu of the 170's. I believe Skywest can operate up to 99 seats with their current contract, and well you all know about Jon Ornstein. It is my belief that all three of these regionals will step into the LCC business in the near future. You think the two Dave's aren't keenly aware of this? It's called foresite. Stop complaining and be thankful you work for a company that will keep you ahead of the curve.

Also, I sure don't hear people complaining about Spirit. Check out the payscale that they have, and believe me they will be a force in the years to come.

 

[jetblue320]

Problem with this statement is we don't have any say in the matter. We, as a pilot group don't have a say as to whether we "accept" the pay or not. The only way we don't accept the pay is if we quit. Mgmt tells us what we're going to be paid, they don't negotiate.

Well, you are about half right. You may not have a say so about the rates but if you don't agree with the "agreement", don't sign it. The word "contract" keeps getting thrown in there. It's a unilateral agreement, not a bilateral contract. Am I thrilled about the EMB190 rates? Of course not. Do I think these are preliminary numbers? Absolutely. The past 5 years have taught me to trust. And to answer Colorado's question, no, I have not got my pink slip yet.

C yaaaa

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

320,

You're right I don't have to sign it, but then where does that leave me? Without a contract. I understand what you are saying, but the bottom line, and I think you agree, is that these numbers are unacceptable. You and I may never have to fly the -190, but it will be difficult to look my jetblue brother in the eye who will!! Preliminary or not, these numbers should not have come out this low. Why do it? So that in a year they can give a raise and look like heros?! Do the right thing the first time!!!

 

[sleepy]

Maybe it's time for you guys to make that call to ALPA? It is only a matter of time before you will need a union.

 

[AAflyer]

Lowecur,


Many of us get it, do you? Spirit has poor wages and have ordered some airbusses, I don;t see them becoming a force to be challenged in years (sorry spirit guys). They have niche and nice product, but this country can not sustain thousands of jets on SWA,JB,AirTran, Spirit. I am not saying they will not grow, just not to the size of JB or SWA, or even AirTran for that matter.Thats is my take.

JetBlue is the darling of wallstreet, they are compared to SWA everyehere. They have orders and options for hundreds of jets. Spirit is no where near the momentum that JB has built.

If they are going to be better than SWA, fly to everywhere SWA is going to, and be as large as SWA, then how about pay like SWA.

I relaize they are new, but no that new anymore. They are making money, and ordering aircraft, and growing, it would have a huge token to their pilots to have raised the amount even $10 to start. Dave is not giving the JB experience. The FAs,the agents, the pilots, the ground workers, they are what make JB sucessful, it would have been nice to be rewarded even just a little.

AA

But then again what do I know, it seems according to you, there will be no more legacy carriers and all others will rule the globe.

 

[SpeedBird]

The following information comes from the latest BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) average hourly wages report (June 2003):


1. Accountant: $23/hr (38 hours/week)

2. Aircraft Mechanic: $25/hr (40 hours/week)

3. Dentist: $36/hr (30 hours/week)

4. Mechanical Engineer: $30/hr (40 hours/week)

5. Fire Fighter: $18/hr (44 hours/week)

6. Lawyer: $44/hr (40 hours/week)

7. Pilot (Airplane): $104/hr (21 hours/week)

8. Physician: $45/hr (40 hours/week)

9. Senior Executive: $45/hr (42 hours/week)

10. Truck Driver: $14/hr (40 hours/week)


I post this information for purposes of comparison with other white & blue collar professions in the US. One can challenge the veracity of the numbers but the point I want to underscore here is the relationship our profession has with other disparate working groups in terms of average hourly pay and work hours. Despite how bad things may seem today you have to wonder how others outside our industry may view our plight.

Just another perspective to consider....

 

[Vegas Flyer]

I got paid 70 grand with 11 years in the air force-- risked my life for a weed inhaling, lying sex feind of a democrat,

So ya got out before the coke snorting, lying messiah complex of a republican?

 

[AAflyer]

Those numbers are BS. So how do you actually compare?

Just from looking it appears they averaged the low end of many sectors and averaged the high end of a couple of airlines.

If you took the average including regional,commuter, flight intructor, charter, 135 and added that in the mix in ratio to number of pilots flying you wouldn't come clost to 104K.

I love what they quote about senior executive pay.

According to Business Week April 21st issue 2003
Average upper level CEO pay averaged 3.7 million dollars a year.

According to Govexec.com in a 99 article
Average executive pay in the private sector for someonline chief of personnel earns $315k. Infact a similar job in the givernment of senior executive earns from 120k-169k.

These numbers alone make me wonder what the true numbers of the other positions are.

AA

 

[jetblue320]

320,

You're right I don't have to sign it, but then where does that leave me? Without a contract. I understand what you are saying, but the bottom line, and I think you agree, is that these numbers are unacceptable. You and I may never have to fly the -190, but it will be difficult to look my jetblue brother in the eye who will!! Preliminary or not, these numbers should not have come out this low. Why do it? So that in a year they can give a raise and look like heros?! Do the right thing the first time!!!

10-4 on that. It does have the potential to create a lot of animosity amonst the group. On that same note, it is the same deal when a guy with options @ $45 a share finds out that mine were $1 (now .37 cents). Time will tell in regards to the EMB190 rates.

C yaaa

 

[Mooseflyer]

6. Lawyer: $44/hr (40 hours/week)

7. Pilot (Airplane): $104/hr (21 hours/week)

8. Physician: $45/hr (40 hours/week)

So a pilot makes more than twice as much $$$ as a lawyer or doctor, and all for half as much work.......hhhhmmmmm

 

[General Lee]

Jbucapt,

What? You are mad at us and Dalpa? We have held up the pay rates for the last three years--after 9-11. We still have our current pay scales (even though they are about to fall), and your company is doing well at the moment.(and your 100 seat rates still are very low) You guys don't have a union, so you were not allowed to vote on new pay scales---they were imposed on you. Why don't you have a union? Because you are one big, happy, blue family. This bench mark will affect every regional from now on---because your company is healthy and it still came up with these "competitivve" rates. You and your current A320 pilots don't have to worry--since you guys won't likely go to the EMB-190s.

Speedbird,

You must be talking about the interns in the hospitals---because once doctors become "specialists"---they money starts rolling in. Look at plastic surgeons who specialize in cosmetic reconstruction. Most of that is elective surgery--which means if you want new boobs---you pay for it--not medicare etc....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur,

Many of us get it, do you? Spirit has poor wages and have ordered some airbusses, I don;t see them becoming a force to be challenged in years (sorry spirit guys).

JetBlue is the darling of wallstreet, they are compared to SWA everyehere. They have orders and options for hundreds of jets. Spirit is no where near the momentum that JB has built.

If they are going to be better than SWA, fly to everywhere SWA is going to, and be as large as SWA, then how about pay like SWA.

Thanx for the vote of confidence, but SWA may not look so good in a few years.

It is well known amongst us amateur analysts that Spirit will offer an IPO in the next 24 months. My guess is they will raise two to three hundred million from that IPO. Now if you think Spirit is still going to be a niche player, then you're crystal ball is on the fritz.

 

[AAflyer]

Do not use a crystal ball, that is what gets you analysts in to trouble. This business could spin around and change again tomorrow, and in some ways it will.

Looking out that far into future and making predictions is a dangerous game.


AA

 

[SpeedBird]

General Lee, et al:

What part of the word "average" don't you understand?

If you don't want to embrace these government sponsored figures then don't, but at the same time don't try and spin the post to suit your flawed sense of reality about how the rest of working world eeks out a living; or how the DOL is part of the vast managerial-wing conspiracy to put airline pilots in the poor house. To do so only shows how desperate you make yourself in this debate.

I am quickly coming to the realization that most of you really are out of touch with how good you still have it; and how little you understand about the significant structural changes that are taking place in this business. You folks better hurry up and wake up to the brave new world that lies before us all.

I don't like what I see happening either, but I sure as hell won't bury my cranium in the sand while whining about the inhumanity of it all; and for those of you who feel short changed by what has happened because the good old days (built upon the vestiges of a regulated industry) will never be realized....get over it! Why don't you stop lamenting over what was and start preparing for what is and will be.

As long as any of us work for somebody else we are only worth what the marketplace will bear; that is capitalism love it or leave it! All the other sunshine that some co-worker or union rep pumped up your posterior about how valuable you are as a pilot is not worth the paper it's printed on. Here at Edwards AFB I watch remotely-piloted and pilotless airplanes takeoff and land from this runway almost everyday. Do I have to connect all the dots for you people to help you understand where we are headed?

Now if that doesn't fit into your sense of what your world should be then get off at the next exit and see if you can find something better for yourself...and good luck cause you'll certainly need it.

 

[lowecur]

Speedbird

Amen.

 

[Freight Dog]

Didn't someone say awhile back that JetBlue EMB190 pilots will not cross to A320 in order to keep the training costs down? Can someone elaborate on that?

 

[AAflyer]

Lowecur and Speedbird,


Since we are all out in left field, we bow down to you and your vision of the future. May I just say one thing?

"PLEASE SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER"

AA

 

[jaxgus]

Still Have a Contract

320,

You're right I don't have to sign it, but then where does that leave me? Without a contract. I understand what you are saying, but the bottom line, and I think you agree, is that these numbers are unacceptable. You and I may never have to fly the -190, but it will be difficult to look my jetblue brother in the eye who will!! Preliminary or not, these numbers should not have come out this low. Why do it? So that in a year they can give a raise and look like heros?! Do the right thing the first time!!!

If you don't sign the new contract the terms of your original contract apply until its renewal date (DOH); you won't be without a contract if you don't sign. I'm not defending the 190 pay scale, but David, Dave, Al and Dave didn't have to offer the new terms to current JB pilots who are not eligible to renew our agreements, they chose to offer the new terms to all of us without extending our current renewal date just giving us access to the new terms. I haven't signed yet, still analyzing the changes, but there are some good changes for pilots on reserve which saves PTO time.

I think we all need to keep level heads regarding the pay scales and keep faith in the differences between JB and other carriers. The end result might be great, it might not, but if we allow emotion to rule our actions and concerns we definitely won't have the ability to communicate with upper leadership.

 

[ASH]

You can't communicate as it is... who are you kidding? Don't act like the Blue-Aid drinkers plan on voicing the issue to MGMT

 

[Iceback]

Embarrased

I too am a Jetbue pilot who should never have to fly the 190...

These rates are just plain embarrasing. They thought they could slip these by without a fuss as everyone on the property when the 190 order was announced, would be an Airbus Captain by the time they arrive.

I have been an advocate of seat pay (one rate for all Captains, and one for all F/Os) for years. This needs to be changed. I think our management needs to re-read the tea leaves.