I've discovered Netjets 10 year plan!

[glasspilot]

Condensed mini-thread.

Can the aircraft (Piaggio) do NYC-South Florida? If so, that's a big market and certainly more than 2 hours. I think most would rather be in it than an ultra or bj as its larger.

I just threw in a flight plan for 4 pax using today's winds from BOS to PBI with a 1200 departure flying the Atlantic Route.

Total time: 3:35 with a 10 kt avg headwind
Burn: 2,087

That's a 2 hr flight in a jet.

Avantair pays crap wages. You get what you pay for in the end.

Ok , I'll bite too....Citation X......

If ya must know I've done LA-NY with a strong tailwind in the same time it is taking you to go from BOS-PBI....I think my best was maybe 3:30 or maybe a little more.....

Gotta love FI. Guys asks a question, another answers it and then all the pricks start getting whipped out stating the speed isn't fast enough or my plane's better.

You guys realize you were just using your Citation X to beat up on a Piaggio. I confirm my plane makes it NY to South Florida (and more) and in comes how your plane does it in "less than 2". Well, that was a lie, it doesn't.

"oh, well. I've done LA - NY in 3 hrs with a tail wind..."

That's nice too. My trip was with a head wind and I stated that and WHO CARES?? You're comparing a C-X to a P180!!! Nobody does that.

Put your little pricks back in your pants relax. You're still faster and better paid and better looking and the women like you better cause you're cooler.

There, feel better now?

 

[charley varrick]

The largest is not always the best. McDonald's serves more meals per day than any other restaurant. And as much as I love a Big Mac, there is better food on the planet.

Even on the luxury side, Rolex sells more watches than anyone, but they are not the best (excellent watches yes they are, not not the finest).

Does this mean you are changing your FI username?

 

[BentOver]

You're still faster and better paid and better looking and the women like you better cause you're cooler.

That's been our point the whole time

BTW it was one of your guys that asked to prove it and with what plane.. So I did.. If you want another comparison, I used to do NYC- PBI in a Beechjet at FL410 with 4-6 passengers in under around 2.5 hrs... Couldn't tell ya the fuel burn. It's been over 5 years. But I know it was less than the X and not much more than the P180....

You are one of the biggest NJA bashers on this board, you do understand that right?

 

[OPECJet]

You guys are spending way too much time on a sword contest and I'm spending way too much time reading it.....

Those of you still on the line who think that NJA isn't in trouble should take a step back and check the scenery. Believe less of what you're hearing from Useless and more of what you're ignoring from current and potential owners who already learned that NJA offers a product at a 30% premium over the competition with ZERO value added. Unless that changes I'd keep my logbook up to date.

 

[sshrae]

somebody get glass a tissue, struck a nerve. just flew a cj2 to dallas from san diego. took 2:40 min at fl450 burned 2600 pounds at 390 kts. a cj2 costs much less per hour than a piaggio and is a super nice cabin. thats the 2, the 3&4 perform much better.

 

[sshrae]

You guys are spending way too much time on a sword contest and I'm spending way too much time reading it.....

Those of you still on the line who think that NJA isn't in trouble should take a step back and check the scenery. Believe less of what you're hearing from Useless and more of what you're ignoring from current and potential owners who already learned that NJA offers a product at a 30% premium over the competition with ZERO value added. Unless that changes I'd keep my logbook up to date.

The fractional industry as a whole I think is unstable. If I was still in the fracs though nja would be the place. One fatal crash at avantair or pretty much any of the others and its over. Always keep the logbook up, you never know what could happen or where you end up.

 

[glasspilot]

You are one of the biggest NJA bashers on this board, you do understand that right?

if I'm the biggest NJA basher then NJ is in great shape. I don't think I've ever said a negative word about NetJets...ever.

Even sitting here thinking about it I can't think of any time I was ever upset at any NJ pilot. Just because I cheer for my company doesn't mean I hate another.

 

[BentOver]

if I'm the biggest NJA basher then NJ is in great shape. I don't think I've ever said a negative word about NetJets...ever.I don't recall one positive post you've ever made about Netjets.. Anytime there is a Netjets thread you seem to be on it....

Even sitting here thinking about it I can't think of any time I was ever upset at any NJ pilot. Just because I cheer for my company doesn't mean I hate another.ditto, in fact I have never met a Avantair pilot, never seen one of your planes, and never applied to your company.. Like I said, I have no negative feelings towards your company. However, just because you all happen to be holding your own in terms of employment vs. Netjets. It is only during this recent time period. Maybe if you weren't on every Netjets thread it would be a different story. We get it, the P180 is a great turbo prop compared to other turbo props. Avaintair has been growing, by growing I mean at a slow pace. But I caution you there is nothing to brag about when a guy like myself cannot and is unable to apply there for the simple reason that I'd be underwater every single month. And I live well within my means.... There is absolutely nothing to brag about. [/QUOTE]

...moving along now

 

[hangarrat]

*****Avantair has been growing, by growing I mean at a slow pace.*****

Avantair is 8 years old...

Notes From the article excerpt i post below:

NJA Roots date back to 1964 and in 1966 there were 87 clients.

Santulli bought in back in '84 and in '86 he is credited as having developed the interchange agreement, the basis of all fractional models. (genius thinking from him and his team - my hat is off to them)

In 1998 they had 1000 clients (that's 34 years to grow its first 1000 clients)

Here is the excerpt that tells the fascinating history:

Ride-Sharing With the Rich
How fractional jet owners get out of flying coach.
By David Freed
Air & Space Magazine, August 01, 2011
...

NetJets traces its Ohio roots to 1964, when U.S. Air Force Brigadier General Olbert Fearing Lassiter, who had retired in Columbus, came up with the idea of selling chartered jet transportation to civilians, affording them the same kind of swift, luxurious air service to which Lassiter had become accustomed while a flag officer. He secured financing, acquired some Learjets and Dassault Falcons, hired mostly former Strategic Air Command pilots, and assembled a high-profile corporate board of directors that included, among others, actor Jimmy Stewart, himself a former bomber pilot and one-star Air Force Reserve general. Thus was NetJets’ predecessor, Executive Jet Airways, born.

Within 17 months, according to a June 1966 Time magazine story, EJA (later Executive Jet Aviation) had 87 clients and was earning nearly $3 million a year. IBM and Xerox executives regularly chartered the company’s aircraft. So did Playboy founder Hugh Hefner.

Paul Tibbets, pilot of the Enola Gay, the Boeing B-29 that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, took over as EJA president in 1976. Before the end of the decade, the company’s client list had nearly tripled.

Wall Street investment banker Richard Santulli saw plenty of room for growth. In 1986, two years after acquiring EJA, Santulli was credited with conceiving what remains today the secret sauce of fractional jet ownership: All owners sign a "master interchange" agreement, allowing each to use any of the others’ jets, and vice versa. No longer wedded to one airplane—which can pose problems when you’ve got a big investor meeting in San Francisco on the same day your co-owner wants to fly his kids to Disney World—the fractional owner under Santulli’s model suddenly had at his disposal an entire harem of airplanes.

"That’s when everything took off like crazy," says NetJets’ president Noe.

By 1998, the list of fractional owners had grown to more than 1,000. One owner, Berkshire Hathaway chairman Warren Buffett, liked the arrangement so much he bought the company. Three years later, Executive Jet changed its name to NetJets, in part, says Noe, to distance itself from negative news reports that used the phrase "executive jet" anytime a private business aircraft was involved in a mishap.

Amid the Great Recession, NetJets and its competitors have struggled. As business travel in general dropped, so did fractional jet ownership. NetJets was forced to cut staff, furlough 495 pilots, and shift its headquarters from New Jersey back to Ohio. Santulli stepped down in 2009 and was replaced by one of Buffett’s top lieutenants, David Sokol, who resigned in March from Berkshire Hathaway and as NetJets’ chief executive officer under suspicion of ethics violations in stock trading. NetJets’ new CEO is Jordan Hansell.

The company these days averages 330 flights a day, up slightly from 2010, but still down from a high of approximately 400 three years ago, says Henneberry.

...

 

[hangarrat]

*****But I caution you there is nothing to brag about when a guy like myself cannot and is unable to apply there for the simple reason that I'd be underwater every single month. And I live well within my means.... There is absolutely nothing to brag about. [/[/COLOR]QUOTE]
*****
...moving along now

Didn't NJA pay $25K to all first year FO's in the light jet catagory all the way up to the 2005 contract. Thats over twenty years after Santulli got there.

Avantair has been running 8 years.

Now, Can we stop making this thread about Avantair?

The market is taking a dive again today... I am concerned about all of our jobs.

 

[sshrae]

gladly, the thread was hijacked by one of your guys. As far as pay, that was then this is now. Poor pay and work rules bring down the entire industry.
Its time to look forward not back.

 

[hangarrat]

We can all Agree on that, we should all be looking forward.

 

[psysicx]

So how many owners are leaving NJA? And where are they going? Netjetowner spent much of his time defending the company that he now dislikes.

 

[NJAowner]

The company used to be the role model for outstanding customer service and experience. That was then and now is now. Many formerly great companies are not quite what they used to be because they changed their focus from what made them great ... Eastman Kodak, Xerox and the list goes on. Xerox owned the copier market for decades and took its leadership role, ingenuity and outstanding customer service for granted and thought is could live on its name.

 

[Praetorian]

That's been our point the whole time

BTW it was one of your guys that asked to prove it and with what plane.. So I did.. If you want another comparison, I used to do NYC- PBI in a Beechjet at FL410 with 4-6 passengers in under around 2.5 hrs... Couldn't tell ya the fuel burn. It's been over 5 years. But I know it was less than the X and not much more than the P180....

You are one of the biggest NJA bashers on this board, you do understand that right?

I think it's funny these Avantair guys want to get in a dic measuring contest with you. Perhaps they are overcompensating for something?

Like their colective vagina.

 

[Gators]

Moved on for two replies.........and we are back

 

[AftCG182]

I think it's funny these Avantair guys want to get in a dic measuring contest with you. Perhaps they are overcompensating for something?

Like their colective vagina.

Go to the kids on the Regionals thread with that trash. Jeez...

 

[gunfyter]

...they changed their focus from what made them great ... Eastman Kodak, Xerox and the list goes on. Xerox owned the copier market for decades and took its leadership role, ingenuity and outstanding customer service for granted and thought is could live on its name.

Uh oh... You are picking on my fellow U of R alumni. And Frat brother ... Joseph Wilson (Xerox founder)... also a DKE @ Rochester.

I can't think of any field that has evolved as rapidly as Optics and Computers (other than communications which has ridden on the back of the other two fields). What was needed is Vision-and-Agility (Leadership) to stay on top when there is rapid change. I would imagine there was resistance to change within XEROX and KODAK because of the massively advantageous position they held in the Environment that existed at that time. They might wish for things to remain as they were ... but it did not. Like the airlines who resisted change brought about by deregulation... and are now extinct.

As far as I know, the 10 year plans have not been shared with any pilots who post here. A look not far in the past on this board shows a time when we were Invincible (we thought). But this is Aviation. Therefore, MY 10 year plan is to keep my resume up to date. Work on another BS or graduate degree not related to aviation. Save money. Invest. We should be doing this anyway. A minor car accident or illness can put you out of flying tomorrow. This is a career with financial risks.

 

[Praetorian]

Go to the kids on the Regionals thread with that trash. Jeez...

Squeak mouse squeak.

Run the PAC will protect you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC2WREcSpk8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[hangarrat]

That is an excellant strategy Gunfyter

 

[wacoflyr]

I think it's funny these Avantair guys want to get in a dic measuring contest with you. Perhaps they are overcompensating for something?

Like their colective vagina.

Okay, I gather that you want to insult us. However, I suggest that you do this while sober, or that you find a simple high school level dictionary to use when you compose these diatribes. Dic and colective are not words. Yore riting is in knot gud.

 

[wacoflyr]

Squeak mouse squeak.

Run the PAC will protect you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC2WREcSpk8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This should have read "Squeak mouse, squeak.
Run, the PAC will protect you."

Commas provide the pause that we expect in spoken language, and can change the actual meaning of a sentence. Your second sentence is an excellent example. Should we run the PAC? Will the PAC protect us? Without that comma, your meaning is unclear.

 

[Praetorian]

Waco,

I so often see posters, here on FI, who are unable to offer effective counter arguments, resort to the ploy you’ve chosen.

In case you aren’t familiar with it, the “straw man” is a classical logical fallacy. In this case the straw man is my spelling/use of punctuation. You’ve simply inserted the straw man into the argument, to divert attention from and without ever refuting my original assertions. Kind of a cheep trick really. And it betrays the kind of guilelessness and credulity I’m certain your management is exploiting to keep you and your fellow mice under their thumb.

I know you can do better.

 

[Praetorian]

And to address the one actual point you've made.

Okay, I gather that you want to insult us.

No, I want to publicly shame you into growing a pair and standing up for yourselves and our profession.

And since this is actually an NJ thread, I think the NJ guys will back me up on this. If what has been done to you, had been done to any unionized pilot force out there, it would mean war. (Yes I know it couldn't be done because we have agreements in place, but you get the point.)

 

[hangarrat]

Waco,

I so often see posters, here on FI, who are unable to offer effective counter arguments, resort to the ploy you’ve chosen.

In case you aren’t familiar with it, the “straw man” is a classical logical fallacy. In this case the straw man is my spelling/use of punctuation. You’ve simply inserted the straw man into the argument, to divert attention from and without ever refuting my original assertions. Kind of a cheep trick really. And it betrays the kind of guilelessness and credulity I’m certain your management is exploiting to keep you and your fellow mice under their thumb.

I know you can do better.

Since this is supposednto be a nja conversation about the 10 year plan, it seems to me that you are also guilty od the same type of mis-direct.

Since what NJA does impacts all the fractionals, we are sincerely interested in what is going on at nja. This stock fall will ultimately impact us all and it is likely that nja will feel it first, but since nja isnlarge and has financial backing, will likely weather that initial impact.

Since we are all in this together, so to speak, we watch and would like to comment on nja's stock reports without being attacked.

So please, can we get back to the discussion of where others see nja going, in relation to recent current events. Lets stop making this a p!ss!ng match.

 

[BentOver]

As long as some of your guys can keep from trying to grow their collective weiners, with data from an airplane, we can get back to the intent of this thread!

Bottom line as far as NJA.. Company has been absolutely transparent since around April/May of this year... And when I say transparent I mean they have been neither seen or heard from.

Wifi and interior refurbs. are occurring and some have noticed these "improvements". Along with disposals of certain models, some wonder how they will get through next winter without exceeding sell-offs.

Everybody else is in limbo. No one has a clue what is happening behind the scenes. Anybody who claims to know is either lying or trying to stroke their own collective weiners. All any of us can hope for is an obvious increase in business. Which for NJA, IMO, is foreshadowed in the weekly company updates about next weeks flight loads. That's about the only telling info any of us recieve. Since late winter it seems to be really steady all summer. And if you consider summer being the "slower" period, it could bode well for next winter and beyond.

All that is dependant on NJA not vastly shrinking over the next year or so.

 

[glasspilot]

As long as some of your guys can keep from trying to grow their collective weiners, with data from an airplane, we can get back to the intent of this thread!

What about this?

3:35 from bos to pbi? Wow, i thought that thing was supposed to be fast.

No kidding... I've done that from LA-NY......That's a 2 hr flight in a jet.

Who's pulling out wieners here? That post is the definition of a pissing contest.

Maybe I was guilty too, but at least I used facts instead of untruths. In order to do BOS to PBI in 2 you'd need a Mach waiver or a 300 kt tailwind. I'm thinking you had neither.


Oh, one last point...I think it may be possible that other threads in the past may have been hijacked by NetJet conversations. Maybe once or twice or a thousand times. I don't mind when they do, I'm a believer that conversations wander and that's a good thing. Just don't get all worked up when it goes the other way.

 

[jonjuan]

Still, he noted that some NetJets competitors could have an easier time going forward. A few years ago, Santo commented, NetJets could charge a premium by claiming to be the safest operator and "people bought into that marketing perception. Now people have realized, hey, everybody flies under the same regulations, everybody's training at FlightSafety, everybody's paying their pilots pretty much the same amount and getting the same type of talent. So that element of branding kind of disappeared. People aren't willing to pay more now."

Didn't realize the pay thing. Cool.

 

[gunfyter]

Didn't realize the pay thing. Cool.

That is awesome! :beer:

 

[glasspilot]

Hey, y'all can get bent.

I have been with Avantair for 5 years and make $101,148 base. How's that compare with your company? If I was hired July 2006 at your company what would I make? Or would I be furloughed?

Plus, in what universe is it okay to look down on another because of what they make?