It's Official...The 717's are going to Delta

[Lear70]

My gut tells me you didnt read VDV's letter very close. He said lift will be the same, not a 1:1 conversion of 717s to 737s. Our fleet will shrink. Count on it.

Winner.

 

[StopNTSing]

I think there are only 17 DC9s left, and they will supposedly stick around until 2014. We are also adding 27 MD90s this year, maybe more the next, and 100 737-900s start coming in this Summer, but they are set to replace some older 757s and domestic 767s. I think there will be some hiring.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Thanks for the info, GL. Thought you guys still had many more -9s in the fleet.

 

[StopNTSing]

My gut tells me you didnt read VDV's letter very close. He said lift will be the same, not a 1:1 conversion of 717s to 737s. Our fleet will shrink. Count on it.

I won't count on it, but won't count the possibilty out either. There are so many other factors that could influence fleet size over the next few years (like who's in the White House come Jan '13, among others) that we'll just have to wait & see...

 

[StopNTSing]

Net gain of mainline aircraft will be more than 88 planes. 100 737-900s on the way.

How many 757s will those be replacing?

 

[saabcaptain]

the fleet will shrink. they will save jobs by using retirements and asking for concessions or pay freezes in the section 6. this adds years to upgrades for any southwest first officer who doesn't upgrade by 2015 although it will allow more to do so before then.

 

[777forever]

How many 757s will those be replacing?

A few 757s and a few 767. Not many. Mostly growth

 

[COpilot]

We'd better accept that dog of a TA fast so we don't loose the 717s!!!

You don't have to make light of the situation; when all is said and done we both know it's going to pass. My guess 57% approval.

No flame, just how votes seem to always go in this modern age.

 

[KarmaPolice]

This is still no reason to vote in that POS TA. Does anyone actually believe that if the pilots vote it down that Delta management is going to alter it's long term business plan? These planes are going to come to you regardless. Please raise the bar for us. We at UniCal are counting on you.

If this TA passes, it will be the selfish senior butt holes who sell out the entire pilot profession. THERE IS NO REASON TO GIVE ONE INCH ON SCOPE! WE ARE MAKING BILLIONS!!!!!

 

[amcnd]

Net gain of mainline aircraft will be more than 88 planes. 100 737-900s on the way. Net gain of regional aircraft will be -200 50 seaters plus 70 76 seaters= total net gain of -130 DCI. That flying will be replaced by 717s

Win Win

Don't forget the MD90's.....

 

[Jiminmem]

You don't have to make light of the situation; when all is said and done we both know it's going to pass. My guess 57% approval.

No flame, just how votes seem to always go in this modern age.

As much as I hate this TA, that is the way I see it going.

 

[Homer Jay]

Does the DL TA not raise your rates dramatically? DL TA rates look like about a 50% pay increase for a 12 year United 320 FO.

Who gives a rats a$$ about rates when you give away so much flying!? I'm all for larger RJ's provided they are flown by mainline. I really hope the majority see this for what it is...a POS.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I look at what you guys are trying to do at UCAL with the RJs, and we just totally BONED you. We should be concerned about the welfare of our profession in general, and that means jobs at mainline. It will be purely selfish reasons if we at Delta pass this TA. I apologize in advance to the rest of you. I filled out my survey, I called my reps, I will vote no, but this P.O.S. will probably pass.

 

[waveflyer]

Which is what I was advocating a month and a half ago and is what got ALPA started developing contingency plans for this... it was the last thing I did on the NC before shuffling to CCC.

That's why we have a plan in place, and now that we know how the deal is structured, the MEC can move forward dealing with it. The only thing we know for sure, with the Southwest response to Jim's letter of yesterday, is that it's not going to be anything quick in terms of "benefit" to offset this massive loss.

Be patient, and try not to get your blood pressure up over things we can't control. They made a business decision that is different than what they told us during negotiations and road shows. How they deal with that and the fallout in terms of employee morale that they have to integrate remains to be seen.

I remain hopeful that something positive comes of this for all of us...

Hopeful, yet still thinking swa ( all of us not just mgmt) will respond in any other way if a group attempts to hold our culture as leverage against swa. This was always a probability Lear- you will do your members a disservice if you approach it too militantly- look out for yourselves- but what's bolder above is what got you a very real visit from herb and Colleen last time- our culture is NOT a point of leverage for ANY group here.

 

[nwaf16dude]

If this TA passes, it will be the selfish senior butt holes who sell out the entire pilot profession. THERE IS NO REASON TO GIVE ONE INCH ON SCOPE! WE ARE MAKING BILLIONS!!!!!

There's really not much in this TA for the senior guys. Pay raise is minimal, only 1% increase to the DC. Most of the benefit is to reserve guys and guys that might be able to upgrade to the left seat of a 717.

 

[humveedriver]

Hopeful, yet still thinking swa ( all of us not just mgmt) will respond in any other way if a group attempts to hold our culture as leverage against swa. This was always a probability Lear- you will do your members a disservice if you approach it too militantly- look out for yourselves- but what's bolder above is what got you a very real visit from herb and Colleen last time- our culture is NOT a point of leverage for ANY group here.

Stop posting this garbage. We are supposed to be on the same team now. You don't have an empathetic bone your body. Good for you. This still has to pass the Delta pilot group first.

 

[Jiminmem]

If this TA passes, it will be the selfish senior butt holes who sell out the entire pilot profession. THERE IS NO REASON TO GIVE ONE INCH ON SCOPE! WE ARE MAKING BILLIONS!!!!!

It will take more than the senior group to pass. There is also very little for the senior group to get very excited over.

 

[Lear70]

Hopeful, yet still thinking swa ( all of us not just mgmt) will respond in any other way if a group attempts to hold our culture as leverage against swa. This was always a probability Lear- you will do your members a disservice if you approach it too militantly- look out for yourselves- but what's bolder above is what got you a very real visit from herb and Colleen last time- our culture is NOT a point of leverage for ANY group here.

Don't look at me, I'm not involved anymore. I only do contract compliance, not involved in the direct negotiating anymore, the new MEC Chairman changed out the entire negotiating committee about a month ago, the formal MEC vote was last week ratifying the changes.

However, failing to realize the very REAL fallout in morale on the AirTran side of this would be a mistake. You cannot think that people who bid the 717, either because they wanted their relative seniority against each other bidding or because they wanted the CA seat can see this as a positive in any way, shape, or form.

In the future it likely will help with the bottom financial line with Southwest which, in turn, helps our job stability, but in the near-term, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to each displaced CA, and is contrary to everything we were told during the SLI voting.

You can't tell me you don't understand how that might upset people...? Really??? Southwest management has made a decision and the impact it has on those affected had to be realized and taken into account. Whether or not anything is done about it is the question... To act like there is no affect is simply disingenuous, just as if we acted as if there was no affect to the SWA pilots due to zero growth (or even net hull loss) over the next few years.

Not holding your culture hostage... just stating the very real truth that people are mad as hell, and SWA can either choose to ignore that or do something about it. What they choose to do or not do will affect how those people view their new employer. That's how life works.

 

[boeing717]

However, failing to realize the very REAL fallout in morale on the AirTran side of this would be a mistake. You cannot think that people who bid the 717, either because they wanted their relative seniority against each other bidding or because they wanted the CA seat can see this as a
Not holding your culture hostage... just stating the very real truth that people are mad as hell, and SWA can either choose to ignore that or do something about it. What they choose to do or not do will affect how those people view their new employer. That's how life works.

Please get over it. You are the cause of the fallout in morale. You will never be happy even though you wanted to be a SWA pilot all your life. They are tired of listening to you. Why not be like PCL. He accepted it and he is below you. Maybe you should talk to him and he can make you feel better.

 

[Lear70]

Please get over it. You are the cause of the fallout in morale. You will never be happy even though you wanted to be a SWA pilot all your life. They are tired of listening to you. Why not be like PCL. He accepted it and he is below you. Maybe you should talk to him and he can make you feel better.

So let me get this straight...

I post for people to standby, not get riled up, and wait to see what can be worked out, and *I* am the cause of the fallout in morale?

You don't think that taking away several hundred CA seats suddenly might have just a WEE bit of something to do with morale?

You've been calling me out specifically on multiple forums for years now, why don't you find a new hobby? Oh wait, you have one of those, the failing lawsuit against ALPA that's still pending...

 

[PCL_128]

So, the question remains.... Would this trigger the AirTran fragmentation policy allowing a certain amount of AirTran pilots to go to Delta under the ALPA merger policy?

PCL-128?

Well, I'm not an attorney, so I can't interpret the language as well as they could. But as best I can tell, since there is no overall reduction in the number of airframes, I don't think the language has been triggered. The language requires a reduction in the fleet equivalent to 30% of the system block hours to trigger the fragmentation clause.

 

[SELCAL checks]

might have just a WEE bit of something to do with morale?

Trust me, there's plenty of morale issues on our side of the house with this merger. Contrary to that moronic letter your MEC sent out yesterday, Southwest pilots are "shouldering the burden" just as much, if not more, than AirTran pilots. It's not "exclusive." Getting a little tired of the AirTran pity party.

Just sayin.

 

[KarmaPolice]

There's really not much in this TA for the senior guys. Pay raise is minimal, only 1% increase to the DC. Most of the benefit is to reserve guys and guys that might be able to upgrade to the left seat of a 717.

"Time value of money"

It also gets us up to SWA rates when DC factored in. Senior guys don't care as much about scope though. Which is what the company really wants from us.

 

[ASADFW7]

Hi I am an airline pilot, I am a pawn that is easily sacrificed in battle for strategic purposes. For the most part being a SWA pilot is good on the 5th and the 20th, when I overlook the fact I am also a pawn to our management. The leadership of the company has a vision, unfortunately it doesn't always help if you actually want to know what the hell is going on the back row.

 

[PCL_128]

Trust me, there's plenty of morale issues on our side of the house with this merger. Contrary to that moronic letter your MEC sent out yesterday, Southwest pilots are "shouldering the burden" just as much, if not more, than AirTran pilots. It's not "exclusive." Getting a little tired of the AirTran pity party.

Just sayin.

Unbelievable.

 

[fletch717]

Trust me, there's plenty of morale issues on our side of the house with this merger. Contrary to that moronic letter your MEC sent out yesterday, Southwest pilots are "shouldering the burden" just as much, if not more, than AirTran pilots. It's not "exclusive." Getting a little tired of the AirTran pity party.

Just sayin.

When you lose 32% seniority, your seat,base, and take a 15% pay cut come talk to me. By the way is it pronounced Dumas.

 

[DonVerita]

Trust me, there's plenty of morale issues on our side of the house with this merger. Contrary to that moronic letter your MEC sent out yesterday, Southwest pilots are "shouldering the burden" just as much, if not more, than AirTran pilots. It's not "exclusive." Getting a little tired of the AirTran pity party.

Just sayin.

And what morale issues would those be? That the entire ATN pilot group wasn't stapled to the bottom of your seniority list?

Do indulge us about how much "harm" you've had and I guarantee you that the ATN pilots can top you 10-fold.

 

[DougCorp-9]

When you lose 32% seniority, your seat,base, and take a 15% pay cut come talk to me. By the way is it pronounced Dumas.

What he said.

 

[scoreboardII]

And what morale issues would those be? That the entire ATN pilot group wasn't stapled to the bottom of your seniority list?

Do indulge us about how much "harm" you've had and I guarantee you that the ATN pilots can top you 10-fold.

No, just that the 717 pilots should have stayed in the 717 till end of lease if they where senior. So now we have 6-700 senior AT guys to take a 737 captain slot starting 2015 instead of 250.

 

[Lear70]

No, just that the 717 pilots should have stayed in the 717 till end of lease if they where senior. So now we have 6-700 senior AT guys to take a 737 captain slot starting 2015 instead of 250.

That's not what the SIA says.

On 1/1/15, only the pilots who are senior enough to hold 737 CA per the global seniority list can upgrade. With known attrition from age 65 retirements at AAI (not including medical out and other issues), there's 373 pilots who can hold 737 CA on 1/1/15. 36 aircraft is approximately 250 or so CA's, so approximately 120 pilots will be F/O's waiting to upgrade first on 1/1/15.

The other 200+ AirTran 737 CA's who WERE going to be 717 CA's at Southwest are now going to be F/O's for many years to come.

That said, can we NOT get into a pissing match with each other about this? It wasn't the SWA pilots who decided to sell/sublease the 717's after the entire SLI was crafted around them and the protections for their pilots... taking it out on each other doesn't help.

 

[cheapgreek]

Just wondering,I thought I read where southwest will get some or all of delta's 737-700's.I believe that delta has 10 737-700's. Thanks.