It's Official...The 717's are going to Delta

[funnyman12]

I think this is the most pissed ive seen our pilot group. Unbelievable.....PCL is right, this has upset the rank and file greatly. Then Chase boasts about the SW fo's upgrades. We do represent 25% of the list, why the heck rub our faces in the mud!!

 

[Lear70]

An ATL base was already coming, it was just a matter of time. Doesn't do much to help the 300 out of 500 717 CA's that just got the rug yanked out from under them, or the 2/3 of our pilots who really don't care to be in ATL anyway. Jamie's seniority calculator shows guys wanting to go all over the system, ATL isn't everyone's first choice by any means.

The only real thing that would help is to snap up the pay rates now like they were going to back on April 1st with SIA 1.

We can't get our seniority back, we can't get those CA seats back, we can't get our previous credit hours back that we're losing every month...

The only salve for this is the pay rates - it's the only thing they really have to give us that benefits everyone here, besides Pay Protection for those displaced CA's, which management told us time and time again they will not do.

I agree with my coworkers, pay parity now is what is called for here.

 

[redflyer65]

It's already hit the fan, red. Our pilots are livid, and not just the usual suspects. SWA management couldn't possibly have handled this any worse. They need to engage in some massive damage control. Waiting weeks or months to make those sorts of announcements will only allow the anger to fester. Not good.

PCL, I completely understand and that is with the utmost sincerity. We, as a group have a little more time before this really gets cranking and hopefully the GO will get some damage control going. I hope we get more info from Gary et all about where all these decisons are headed. Even if we are fat on pilots later, I don't see Gary reaching for the F lever. He will do everything he can to keep us all on property.

 

[canyonblue]

Pay parity just ain't gonna happen. And if you are walking around with anger, let it go, it won't help you with anything.

 

[General Lee]

this just doesn't add up, get rid of jets, get less jets, keep same number of bodies= overstaffed by 15-20%.

Same thing happened at Delta over the last 8 months. Huge Capacity pulldown. Most lines were near 70 hours from OCT to MAY of this year. June finally picked up the slack.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

So let me get this straight- you guys will do what exactly with your anger?

What possible good does it do?

As far as pay parity- getting that might help your AT brethren forget that their reps denied them the right to that- but now that nothing outside the agreements signed has occurred, you think you have leverage only bc you're upset?

This airline, and none that I know of, will reward a temper tantrum.

Beside PCL- I thought you said this wasn't about money- if it's not about money, then how does pay parity help. This accelerates AT pilots to the SWA partition, where you can have all the pay parity and block hours you can finagle system wide.

IMO, this is a good thing culturally- AT pilots want to live coast to coast- this accelerates that- breaks up the AT cliques a bit and gets us flying together faster.

Is that wrong?

Just remember- there will be unexpected good things that also occur- will you be as overjoyed about those as you are extremely pissed about this??

Sorry kids- much ado about nothing- we have execs and managers working at a fraction of other execs trying to do right by us- freaking out, spring loaded to the most negative interpretation possible before this even gets fleshed out- accomplishes nothing.

As far as the F word- SWA proved to me in '09 it's chops on not furloughing- and so did the entire pilot group- it's one reason I care about this place so much- EVERY OTHER AIRLINE FURLOUGHED AT FIRST OPPORTUNITY - INCLUDING AIR TRAN. So just stop.

As Buddha says:
"you are not punished for your anger, you are punished by your anger"

It'll be your heart attack- your arguments with your spouses- no one else's

 

[PCL_128]

Frankly, wave, you're not even worth conversing with at this point. Some of your SWA brothers have had the common decency to post some sympathetic thoughts, but you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge even the slightest bit that we've been given an unfair shake in this whole mess.

 

[humveedriver]

Frankly, wave, you're not even worth conversing with at this point. Some of your SWA brothers have had the common decency to post some sympathetic thoughts, but you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge even the slightest bit that we've been given an unfair shake in this whole mess.

I just want to say thanks to my SWA brothers who acknowledge the departure from the plan. Obviously we have no leverage here at AT. To shove that in our faces is frankly cruel. All we can do is wait and see what DAL does and what SWA decides to do. They told us last week if the 717s left, they would meet with us. So, nothing to do but wait and try not to piss each other off.

 

[waveflyer]

Yes- I refuse to be sympathetic to pilots who end up on the swapa seniority list making six figures-

There are a lot of pilots on these boards who, while extending their "sympathies" would give their left nut to be in your situation.

I simply don't see why you think you're getting a raw deal. I believe you're acting like kids and you haven't provided any rational argument as to how you've been negatively affected.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I simply don't see why you think you're getting a raw deal. I believe you're acting like kids and you haven't provided any rational argument as to how you've been negatively affected.

Thanks for the insight Wave, are you part of the 10% or is this prevalant accross the board? With your mindset, it's pointless to continue rehashing this, you think we won the lottery, we think we got the shaft. In a perfect world, the reallity would be somewhere in the middle, however, with both our pilot groups, we won't see it that way for a long time.

 

[humveedriver]

Yes- I refuse to be sympathetic to pilots who end up on the swapa seniority list making six figures-

There are a lot of pilots on these boards who, while extending their "sympathies" would give their left nut to be in your situation.

I simply don't see why you think you're getting a raw deal. I believe you're acting like kids and you haven't provided any rational argument as to how you've been negatively affected.

Time and time again in other posts you refer to SWA culture and values. This is where I think many of us are confused, because it just does not appear to us that the golden rule is being applied to the AT pilot group. Alot of documents were drafted and signed, and so far not a one has been followed through with. Some of our guys actual thought when they started 717 training two months ago that they were going to be flying that aircraft until at least 2015. Only a fraction of them will now. Many of us thought SWA was a different company. But then in another post you said you have worked for several other carriers and been through this type stuff before. So at the end of the day, SWA really isn't different than any other airline. When SWA says one thing and does another at every turn, it doesn't give us a warm fuzzy when they say they won't furlough. Alot of folks would like to work for SWA. But no one likes to be told to shut up and just be glad to be here as a condition of employment.

 

[Lear70]

All I can say is, first, thanks to our Southwest brethren here who have, for the most part, acknowledged how crappy of a deal taking the majority of the last of our CA seats is for AirTran Pilots. Thanks to those who can empathize with other peoples' situations, regardless of whether they agree with the extent of damage done or not.

Second, this does NOT accelerate ANYONE over the partition. In stark contrast, I have the latest pre-717 sale transition schedule of our aircraft and there were MORE people transitioning to Southwest in 2012, 2013, and 2014 under the original plan and 2 subsequent modifications to the original plan than there are now.

Specifically, there likely will never be a 717 in Canyon Blue paint, they won't have finished transitioning the 717's to Delta and will still be operating at AirTran into 2015, and the delay in bringing 737's over will almost certainly exceed the 1/1/15 timeline of AirTran pilots still operating in AirTran colors on this side of the partition. This also will not likely speed the pace of 737 transitions to Southwest, simply because you guys aren't going to be able to get the res system and other parts of Int'l ops working until late 1st quarter or mid 2nd quarter 2014. There's not enough TIME to get all those 737's across the partition in 6-9 months when each aircraft takes 45 days to reconfigure.

In short, the only thing this does is help 60% or so of our 717 F/O's who will come to SWA next year as 737 F/O's with the accompanying pay rate instead of a 717 pay rate. For everyone else, they either just got shafted (717 Captains) or significantly delayed (remaining 40% of 717 F/O's who were going to be on the increased pay in 2013 and 2014 but now won't see it until 1/1/15).

You have to look at exactly how the schedule will now play out on a month-by-month basis well into 2015 to see how everyone is impacted.

 

[Daddy]

humvee,
CULTure has been dead here for a few years already...there are a few who still buy the company line but most do not. These days the company's health care provider pre-approves surgeries and then the company refuses to pay when it is done. That is the definition of dickery in my opinion...not the golden rule.


Lear70,
True dat...impossible to tell from here what the real fallout is

 

[Daddy]

Side note:

dickery (noun) - the act or series of acts involving being a dick

 

[SWA Bubba]

All I can say is, first, thanks to our Southwest brethren here who have, for the most part, acknowledged how crappy of a deal taking the majority of the last of our CA seats is for AirTran Pilots. Thanks to those who can empathize with other peoples' situations, regardless of whether they agree with the extent of damage done or not.

Second, this does NOT accelerate ANYONE over the partition. In stark contrast, I have the latest pre-717 sale transition schedule of our aircraft and there were MORE people transitioning to Southwest under the original plan and 2 subsequent modifications to the original plan than there are now.

Specifically, there likely will never be a 717 in Canyon Blue paint, they won't have finished transitioning the 717's to Delta and will still be operating at AirTran into 2015, and the delay in bringing 737's over will almost certainly exceed the 1/1/15 timeline of AirTran pilots still operating in AirTran colors on this side of the partition. This also will not likely speed the pace of 737 transitions to Southwest, simply because you guys aren't going to be able to get the res system and other parts of Int'l ops working until late 1st quarter or mid 2nd quarter 2014. There's not enough TIME to get all those 737's across the partition in 6-9 months when each aircraft takes 45 days to reconfigure.

In short, the only thing this does is help 60% or so of our 717 F/O's who will come to SWA next year as 737 F/O's with the accompanying pay rate instead of a 717 pay rate. For everyone else, they either just got shafted (717 Captains) or significantly delayed (remaining 40% of 717 F/O's who were going to be on the increased pay in 2013 and 2014 but now won't see it until 1/1/15).

You have to look at exactly how the schedule will now play out on a month-by-month basis well into 2015 to see how everyone is impacted.

This seems like a pretty reasonable description of who stands to gain and lose on the Airtran side as far as current knowledge goes. Thanks for the non-inflammatory recap; it's pretty much what I had figured, with one exception. I thought that NO former Airtran 717 guy would get increased pay until 2015; then everybody gets it regardless. This would seem to primarily leave the 717 Captains alone holding the short end of the stick in this deal, notwithstanding the other associated changes (domiciles, etc).

However, since there seems to be misalignment of time frames (717-to-SWA vs. 717-to-Delta) by as much as a year, there HAS to be negotiations with the company to resolve it. Like I said before, hopefully something can be done to mitigate the loss of expectations suffered by these pilots.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

For those 717 CA's that maybe losing their seats, putting left seat ego aside, at 10yr AAI payrates that are making 158/hr. If they are only working 70 guarantee (which is what has been reported) then that's 11,000/month.

A 10 year SW first officer blows that number away. I know it's not all about money, but it sure helps when you come over and make ALOT more than min guarantee with the AAI payscales. It sucks to plan on the plane staying and then getting the rug pulled, I'm trying to find some silver lining.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

PCL, I think what a lot of us on the SWA side of the partition have a problem with, is that your MEC and a lot of the Airtran pilots continually state that Airtran alone has shouldered all of the bad of this acquisition, while not recognizing the positives. We all need to keep in mind that alot of Southwest pilots are going to be affected negatively.

Hopefully it works out for all of us!

 

[Lear70]

However, since there seems to be misalignment of time frames (717-to-SWA vs. 717-to-Delta) by as much as a year, there HAS to be negotiations with the company to resolve it.

Actually, there doesn't. I briefed the ALPA MEC on this before I left the NC.

If you read your Scope language carefully, thinking of where the loopholes are at, then read the SIA carefully, thinking of how you would get around something if you wanted to, you'll find three things in the SIA that, when put together, don't leave much leverage on behalf of SWAPA.

1. On date of signing of the SIA, all AirTran pilots are now on the SWA seniority list.

2. As of DOCC, all AirTran pilots are now employed by Southwest.

3. On 1/1/15, per the SIA, all AirTran pilots will be governed by the SWAPA/SWA CBA.

Put all three of those together and, on 1/1/15, the only thing that separates a SWA pilot from an AirTran pilot is the color their plane is painted and, possibly, whether SWAPA represents us (which I don't think they'll get away with staying separate representation after we reach the 50% mark of who has gone to SWA; I see SWA management filing with the NMB at that point if we still haven't worked it out).

Speaking from an arbitration standpoint, that's pretty weak grounds to say there is a Scope violation. That's a loser grievance and, by the time you'd get it to hearing, late in 2015, they'll be wrapping up the 717's to Delta and 737's into SWA anyway.

Checkmate.

Your Senior Labor Relations Counsel, Joe Harris, is absolutely brilliant. Quite possibly the best labor relations attorney I've ever met.

Like I said before, hopefully something can be done to mitigate the loss of expectations suffered by these pilots.

Thanks, and for your junior F/O's, too. I know this delays their upgrades and they're unhappy as well.

All I can hope is that there is POSITIVE news out there for all of us in the future and that it DOESN'T come in the form of acquiring another airline to integrate, unless it's set up like F9 and doesn't come with the sale of aircraft. Like I said, I understand why the SWA bottom half hates this deal; didn't do you guys any favors for the next few years. We can only hope that growth above 2% eventually comes out of it.

 

[texman]

One question? Didn't the AT MEC know that the 717 was going to go away sometime soon? If so why not prep your people for it. You people (AT) knew it was going away. Did the 717 capts magically think that they would have been a capt past 2015.

Since day one I have looked at the global seniority and where I would stand with one fleet.

What I see is a ATL base opening on the SWA side next 12 months, and the draw down of the AT base. So when you bid to come to SWA, you bid right back into ATL and fly what your Seniority can hold.

 

[Lear70]

For those 717 CA's that maybe losing their seats, putting left seat ego aside, at 10yr AAI payrates that are making 158/hr. If they are only working 70 guarantee (which is what has been reported) then that's 11,000/month.

It's 75/76 hours per month per the SIA. My little contribution to the deal, seeing what was going to happen with block hours (which has actually happened faster than forecast - if I'd have known, I'd have asked for 78/80).

75 hours * 158 = $11,850 per month, $142k per year.

A 10 year SW first officer blows that number away. I know it's not all about money, but it sure helps when you come over and make ALOT more than min guarantee with the AAI payscales. It sucks to plan on the plane staying and then getting the rug pulled, I'm trying to find some silver lining.

Well, it certainly won't hurt to get a $15-20k a year pay bump going back to the right seat at SWA, but those CA's are likely thinking more of what they were GOING to get being SWA 717 Captains on the SWA pay rates come 1/1/15 on the 717. Now they will go back to the right seat and won't get pay protected.

In essence, those guys are looking at making about $250k up to half a Million dollars less over the next 5-12 years, depending on where they sat (2017-2024 717 retirement schedule) and how much the difference between SWA F/O (who doesn't work down to 10 days off but flies a normal line) and SWA reserve CA rates are.