It's Official...The 717's are going to Delta

[GlobeIII]

Me thinks SWA and DL play CHESS!
SWAPA and ALPA play CHECKERS!

My first thought when I heard the announcement many moons ago...."I got a bad feeling about this!"

 

[Flyer1015]

Now forgive me if my math is off, but crunching some numbers here at 11pm, why do I have this feeling that every single Airtran 717 captain is about to get boned? Yikes! I did not see this coming (re: Delta 717 deal). Good luck to ya'll, but this SWA-AAI SLI does not bode well for those about to lose their left seats.

 

[waveflyer]

Kool aid, nice. Yeah that's me. Try experienced- and healed up from my own beaten dog syndrome. I've had management's that were harsh, greedy, and unethical- SWA doesn't deserve what you guys are throwing at them.
Lear- what I take exception to is the assertion that this contingency wasn't taken into account during SLI negotiations. It's always been a real possibility and the 717 was NEVER promised to be around for the duration of the agreement. It is misrepresenting yourselves to say it was. Or that this possibility wasn't openly talked about. That feels like more ALPA games. (which again, why wouldn't they poison as much of the well as they can?)

That's not what the SIA says.

On 1/1/15, only the pilots who are senior enough to hold 737 CA per the global seniority list can upgrade. With known attrition from age 65 retirements at AAI (not including medical out and other issues), there's 373 pilots who can hold 737 CA on 1/1/15. 36 aircraft is approximately 250 or so CA's, so approximately 120 pilots will be F/O's waiting to upgrade first on 1/1/15.

The other 200+ AirTran 737 CA's who WERE going to be 717 CA's at Southwest are now going to be F/O's for many years to come.

That said, can we NOT get into a pissing match with each other about this? It wasn't the SWA pilots who decided to sell/sublease the 717's after the entire SLI was crafted around them and the protections for their pilots... taking it out on each other doesn't help.

 

[waveflyer]

So- what's changed?
Nothing for over a year.
2nd half of 2013= 16 717's going to delta.
Then 36 in 2014 and 36 in 2015.
Looking at APC and a cursory glance at this deal, I don't see how you guys lose money over what you make now- esp knowing our work rules and schedules- so what's the deal?
You'll have my empathy if you can prove worthy of it.
So far, youre on my same list of the guys here who felt entitled to a six year upgrade so are now pissed at the world- dumb- make $180k and mad bc we haven't doubled again in the worst recession since the depression and they don't get the same career their predecessors did. It's immature and I get tired of the immaturity and airline inexperience both sides display on here.
Esp from you Lear, when you should know better through experience.

And again with the 32%_ AT was FORMED IN 1996- such stupid STUPID MISLEADING MATH TO COME UP WITH THAT NUMBER. And you guys accuse Swa of being unethical-
I know these guys- and it's ridiculous.

 

[PCL_128]

Looking at APC and a cursory glance at this deal, I don't see how you guys lose money over what you make now- esp knowing our work rules and schedules- so what's the deal?

Everything isn't always about money, Wave.

 

[humveedriver]

Kool aid, nice. Yeah that's me. Try experienced- and healed up from my own beaten dog syndrome. I've had management's that were harsh, greedy, and unethical- SWA doesn't deserve what you guys are throwing at them.
Lear- what I take exception to is the assertion that this contingency wasn't taken into account during SLI negotiations. It's always been a real possibility and the 717 was NEVER promised to be around for the duration of the agreement. It is misrepresenting yourselves to say it was. Or that this possibility wasn't openly talked about. That feels like more ALPA games. (which again, why wouldn't they poison as much of the well as they can?)

Sorry for the personal attack. I know you have your opinion about your employer. The AirTran pilots were told repeatedly by SWA management that the classics would go before the 717s (roadshows/conferences). Every SWA pilot I talked to commuting was under the same impression until a few short weeks ago. It's not just about the money being close to the same. Its about the ATL domicile. It's about being straight forward with your employees. It's goin to take maturity from both sides to figure this out.

 

[redflyer65]

This was the worst kept rumor ever. Everyone knew it was done, especially when SW management felt they needed to address this one specific rumor a little over a month ago. How many other rumors do they ever address?

What would help NOW would be the company announcing an Atlanta base for all of our AAI brothers. And even that wouldn't help all, but it sure would go along way to help the heartburn that's some of these decisions have caused.

 

[PanPan]

One contract, one union would go a long way in my book.

 

[Lear70]

Kool aid, nice. Yeah that's me. Try experienced- and healed up from my own beaten dog syndrome. I've had management's that were harsh, greedy, and unethical- SWA doesn't deserve what you guys are throwing at them.

Funny, your coworkers seem to be similarly unhappy with this announcement... But opinions vary; they always have. My world has allowance for the fact that not everyone thinks the same way, and there's no good in persecuting others for their way of thinking as long as we still get the job done, take care of each other, and our passengers. But that's just me.

Lear- what I take exception to is the assertion that this contingency wasn't taken into account during SLI negotiations. It's always been a real possibility and the 717 was NEVER promised to be around for the duration of the agreement. It is misrepresenting yourselves to say it was. Or that this possibility wasn't openly talked about. That feels like more ALPA games. (which again, why wouldn't they poison as much of the well as they can?)

ALPA games? Right. Anyone who knows me knows I don't play games. I call it like it is, right out in the open, and is probably why there's a new NC in place with the new MEC Chair.

As for SLI negotiations, I still have my negotiating notes, which I typed into my computer every time something happened or someone said something, right along with the date and time. I know exactly what was said and WHEN it was said. I type 140 wpm and take a lot of notes.

It's also interesting to note that every OTHER member of the MC and NC remembers the discussions the same way.

It's ALSO interesting to note that all of our PILOTS heard the same thing from YOUR management present at our road shows.

Make no mistake, the early exit of the 717 was downplayed significantly as to be an almost non-existent possibility prior to COI. Yes, they said it was POSSIBLE, but highly unlikely. That's why so much emphasis was put on 717 CA seats, the TPA and ATL bases for the 717, etc. It was a HUGE center of our part of the SIA, and if there had been a serious concern raised about their early exit, it wouldn't have been presented that way.

Your management reps at the road shows said the same thing. Then they changed their mind about their approach. That's the bottom line here, and we will play the cards we've been dealt and move on, because that's what professionals do.

 

[waveflyer]

Cool- but I don't think this was a diabolical plan to screw Air Tran pilots- many have told me that they feel this was management's plan all along- -
My response is yeah- of course- theyve said at every step that they'll fly the 717 as long as they have to, but they're looking to get rid of them- it was after DOCC but well before SLIA that they said this. They simply didn't have a reasonable buyer. Now they do.
Man, this situation is just the airlines- ALL OF THEM- I can't count how many times something similar to this has happened in my career-

 

[Lear70]

Cool- but I don't think this was a diabolical plan to screw Air Tran pilots- many have told me that they feel this was management's plan all along- -

No, I don't think there was some diabolical scheme at work...

I simply believe they said what we needed to hear to get us to sign off on the deal while simultaneously leaving this option open in case the opportunity to rid themselves of the aircraft early presented itself... and it has... and they are, regardless of how it impacts those affected.

Man, this situation is just the airlines- ALL OF THEM- I can't count how many times something similar to this has happened in my career-

Yeah. You think I'd be used to it by now... :no:

 

[waveflyer]

Everything isn't always about money, Wave.

Then what's it about?

Seriously?

I can't tell you how many times over 6 airlines something like this has happened to me personally- bases closing unexpectedly (right after pilots bought houses) airplanes rolled back, airlines going into bk, but also unexpected positives- bases opening that were told would never be open (DEN, anyone?), unexpected growth, adding of additional airplanes. This cycle has happened many times. is airline life- nothing more

Im not asking any AT pilot to react in any other way than I've had to many, many times in my career-

If this kind of thing shakes you up, it's hard for me to understand how you all have made it in the airline business at all. Again- it appears to be pessimistic, beaten dog, lashing out, defensive immaturity - its just dumb-
And yes- I've said the same thing to my classmates who are spring loaded to "this is going to screw us junior FOs" (bc we'll grow our ASM's without growing the fleet.) yet time goes on, we have been getting more senior- and the paychecks are rising steadily.
Just chill out or go quit. I've never worked at a company so blatantly committed to making sure we all have jobs. You guys are slapping them around, when they are doing their best to take care of you (while making a whole lot less than most executives)
I can see how this will affect pilots, but I don't get the negativity. I'm not chasing the airline carrot here though. Im not into "I'll be happy when...." I'm eating it. Every day as a junior FO- life is pretty good.

 

[milflyboy]

..... I've never worked at a company so blatantly committed to making sure we all have jobs....

Sure hope it stays that way ) A lot of F words being thrown around lately.

 

[FlyinGuy]

F words are being spoken by pilots not management.

 

[scoreboardII]

Good words from Wave