It's Official...The 717's are going to Delta

[humveedriver]

One question? Didn't the AT MEC know that the 717 was going to go away sometime soon? If so why not prep your people for it. You people (AT) knew it was going away. Did the 717 capts magically think that they would have been a capt past 2015.

Since day one I have looked at the global seniority and where I would stand with one fleet.

What I see is a ATL base opening on the SWA side next 12 months, and the draw down of the AT base. So when you bid to come to SWA, you bid right back into ATL and fly what your Seniority can hold.

Not magically. But I thought that an "accelerated" departure of the 717 would occur after 2015. Here is a good article for you.

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thingsinthesky/2012/02/13/southwest-obtains-rate-reductions/

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

For those 717 CA's that maybe losing their seats, putting left seat ego aside, at 10yr AAI payrates that are making 158/hr. If they are only working 70 guarantee (which is what has been reported) then that's 11,000/month.

A 10 year SW first officer blows that number away. I know it's not all about money, but it sure helps when you come over and make ALOT more than min guarantee with the AAI payscales. It sucks to plan on the plane staying and then getting the rug pulled, I'm trying to find some silver lining.

How about a 12 yr AT captain going back to the right seat until late 2017 or early 2018 when global seniority will allow re-upgrade (this is assuming no growth which at this point may be a best case scenario)? You have a 12 year payscale correct?

BTW, in your example you just say SWA f/o pay blows it away. What would a 12 year f/o make flying min guarantee?

 

[Lear70]

One question? Didn't the AT MEC know that the 717 was going to go away sometime soon? If so why not prep your people for it. You people (AT) knew it was going away.

No, we didn't. I have every single email chain between the NC and MEC for the last 9 months, and I can tell you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, we were told, again and again and AGAIN by SWA management, that there WAS no plan to retire the 717's early. Yes, I have those emails too, up to just 60 days ago they were still saying that.

I was the first person to email the reps back in March and say, "What they're saying isn't matching with what they're doing; here's the rumors from several different reliable sources at Boeing, Delta, etc, as well as what they're doing with the 717 training hiatus and 737 movements, it points to the 717 going away sooner rather than later, and we'd better start developing some contingency plans". Some of the reps disagreed, but the majority (and the new MEC Chair) agreed, so we started developing plans, but that's just been in the last 45 days.

Which makes the email from Steve Chase very interesting from a legal point of view. SWAPA says they've known from the very beginning the 717's were going to go away quickly. Yet our internal emails between the NC, MC, and MEC all quite obviously point to the fact that we were NOT told that. Your emails from SWA management officials to us (I have some of those, too) repeatedly, as recently as 60 days ago, that there was NO plan for the early departure of the 717 but, if something came up, they would "certainly look at it."

So SWAPA is saying they knew the plan back in negotiations and we know WE didn't... so did SWA tell SWAPA their plan for early 717 retirement and capturing more CA seats? Sure sounds like it from the Steve Chase letter.

Did the 717 capts magically think that they would have been a capt past 2015.

Yes, and it wasn't "magical", it was because that's what the SIA said. There were pages and pages of what happened with the 717's as they crossed the partition and ONE, ITTY BITTY little entry on what happens if they're not there to transition into.

Since day one I have looked at the global seniority and where I would stand with one fleet.

Me too, and it sucked, so I was glad the 717's were staying. From the beginning I was planning on bidding BACK to the 717 once they came across the partition so I could get SOME of my seniority back on a monthly bidding basis. But back in March it became obvious (to me) that wasn't going to happen...

What I see is a ATL base opening on the SWA side next 12 months, and the draw down of the AT base. So when you bid to come to SWA, you bid right back into ATL and fly what your Seniority can hold.

I see the same thing, but that was going to happen anyway.

The problem is that the majority of the international flying focus is shifting to MCO and Texas/California, where we aren't competing head-to-head with Delta. I doubt the ATL base will be much bigger than the DEN base when all is said and done. How many of your senior pilots will take those slots and how many will be left for the 30% or so of our pilots who live in ATL?

This thing is about 5 layers deep in a domino effect. What seems easy on the surface really has implications way beyond first glance.

 

[waveflyer]

Lear, There is so much in that post it's hard to respond- Let's start at the foundation-
Chase said SWAPA has been planning on this from the beginning. He did not say he knew it was going to happen- just that Swapa planned for that contingency. Swapa makes those arguments all the time, bc our group is very hawkish about money (even tried to reduce our dues from 1% down to .9% before AT was announced) so they feel the need to justify it.

As far as his comment about much needed upgrades- swa spent billions on AT that could have bought airplanes that would have provided much needed upgrades- that's the link and the crux of why FOs who've had unprecedented time in the right seat are upset at their stagnation.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Actually, there doesn't. I briefed the ALPA MEC on this before I left the NC.

If you read your Scope language carefully, thinking of where the loopholes are at, then read the SIA carefully, thinking of how you would get around something if you wanted to, you'll find three things in the SIA that, when put together, don't leave much leverage on behalf of SWAPA.

1. On date of signing of the SIA, all AirTran pilots are now on the SWA seniority list.

2. As of DOCC, all AirTran pilots are now employed by Southwest.

3. On 1/1/15, per the SIA, all AirTran pilots will be governed by the SWAPA/SWA CBA.

Put all three of those together and, on 1/1/15, the only thing that separates a SWA pilot from an AirTran pilot is the color their plane is painted and, possibly, whether SWAPA represents us (which I don't think they'll get away with staying separate representation after we reach the 50% mark of who has gone to SWA; I see SWA management filing with the NMB at that point if we still haven't worked it out).

Speaking from an arbitration standpoint, that's pretty weak grounds to say there is a Scope violation. That's a loser grievance and, by the time you'd get it to hearing, late in 2015, they'll be wrapping up the 717's to Delta and 737's into SWA anyway.

Checkmate.

Your Senior Labor Relations Counsel, Joe Harris, is absolutely brilliant. Quite possibly the best labor relations attorney I've ever met.


Thanks, and for your junior F/O's, too. I know this delays their upgrades and they're unhappy as well.

All I can hope is that there is POSITIVE news out there for all of us in the future and that it DOESN'T come in the form of acquiring another airline to integrate, unless it's set up like F9 and doesn't come with the sale of aircraft. Like I said, I understand why the SWA bottom half hates this deal; didn't do you guys any favors for the next few years. We can only hope that growth above 2% eventually comes out of it.

Lear,

I have read the scope language carefully, as well as the SLI (our side letter 10), and I have to respectfully disagree with you. The SLI agreement requires that all Airtran crew must complete transition to Southwest by the end of 2014. Our CBA para 1.C.1 requires the company keep separate any owned subsidiary companies. More importantly, it specifically prohibits the company from "transfer[ring], interchang[ing] crews, equipment, and/or routes between the carriers." This provision is waived in the SLI agreement only until Jan 1, 2015. It requires SWAPA approval (negotiations) to change it.

Taken together, that seems to say that ALL Airtran pilots must become Southwest pilots by Jan 2015, and that NO Southwest pilots may fly Airtran aircraft, which leaves no crews to man any Airtran aircraft that remain after 1 Jan 2015. That's how I read it anyway, and haven't found anything in the CBA that allows otherwise.

I also think SWAPA has a good record of grieving scope violations. For instance, the company flew one SWA plane and one Airtran plane with a big sticker on the nose for a a few days after the 5 May 2011 closing. The stickers were the "Southwest - Airtran 2011 One Luv" logo that we all saw on cookies and such. SWAPA grieved it as a technical scope violation, because Airtran crews (someone other than SWAPA seniority list pilots) flew an airplane that had "Southwest Airlines" written on it somewhere. It may sound piddly, but the union took it seriously. The company ultimately agreed, and calculated the number of flights made with the sticker, and the average Southwest CBA pay for an average CA and FO for all those flights, and then awarded that amount. I can't imagine the company risking an entire years' worth of pilot pay for up to 36 airplanes in a grievance they stand a good chance of losing. I believe they WILL negotiate here. They have to.

Bubba

 

[humveedriver]

As far as his comment about much needed upgrades- swa spent billions on AT that could have bought airplanes that would have provided much needed upgrades- that's the link and the crux of why FOs who've had unprecedented time in the right seat are upset at their stagnation.

So those are your Captain seats because you guys bought them fair and square? I'm trying to get your point.

 

[SWA Bubba]

How about a 12 yr AT captain going back to the right seat until late 2017 or early 2018 when global seniority will allow re-upgrade (this is assuming no growth which at this point may be a best case scenario)? You have a 12 year payscale correct?

BTW, in your example you just say SWA f/o pay blows it away. What would a 12 year f/o make flying min guarantee?

To answer your question, a 12th year FO at SWA currently makes $132.84/trip x 90 trips min reserve = 11,956/mo or about $144k per year. That's the minimum. An FO with 10 years or more of seniority is very senior, and can easily work his schedule to fly 130 or more trips/month with little effort and still no more (or not much more) than 15 days worked per month (what a reserve works for his 90 trips). Pushing $200k is very common for a senior FO.

I realize that this doesn't change a seat displacement, but I hope it helps by addressing your question. I'm like you: I'd rather be a bottom-feeding captain than a uber-senior FO, although the reality is that there's not a whole lot of difference at Southwest between the pay of a reserve captain and a crafty, senior FO.

Bubba

 

[Lear70]

We'll see, Bubba.

I could be completely wrong, but if Southwest takes the stance that we are ALL Southwest pilots on 1/1/15 by virtue of being all on one contract under one operating certificate and one seniority list, then where is the Scope violation?

Do you have the exact text of 1.C.1 to quote? The PDF copy I have doesn't allow me to cut and paste (I really should get a better PDF editor for my Mac).

Additionally, there is language in the first page of the SIA that exempts certain transition paragraphs after 1/1/15 if all AirTran crews have NOT transferred to Southwest.

I know because I was the one who wrote that exemption via conference call in ATL after we had returned from negotiations.

I did it because I was concerned for what would happen if all the pilots hadn't transitioned by the end of 2014, something we now know to be almost a certainty. I brought up the fact that the training requirements, waiving of probationary periods, etc were originally slated to become null and void on 1/1/15, so we carved out an exemption that makes sure crews that hadn't transitioned are still protected. It never occurred to me that it could be used to prolong the integration, since we had the aircraft transition schedule that showed how the aircraft would all be done by 1/1/15.

I'm not saying that SWAPA wouldn't grieve it; I'm saying the grievance is a loser if they push it, and by the time you get it to hearing 6-9 months, they will have all but rectified the problem and if they have to throw enough money at it to buy another van for the Ronald McDonald house (which is tax-deductible and great P.R.), it's a small price to pay for continuing to operate this transition as they see fit.

I get it now. That's the reason I didn't fight to stay on the NC; it's become akin to the orphan Oliver asking "Please sir, I'd like some more." My plan is to simply stay on the AAI side of the partition as long as possible, enjoy my relative bidding power as long as I can, enjoy my son and fiance', have fun when I'm at work so my coworkers and passengers have fun, too, and go home ASAP.

It's just not worth the angst. Not trying to argue with any of you, just pointing out that they've crafted enough wiggle room in all these documents to do whatever it is they believe needs to be done, for the most part.

 

[texman]

So those are your Captain seats because you guys bought them fair and square? I'm trying to get your point.

The SWA name is. We didn't buy seats, we bought a airline. Fair and square is the price that your ceo took. Don't forget. BF and the shareholders sold you guys.

M/B was the saving grace. It saved a lot of job loss and headache. Expecially in a crappy economy. I just hope the AT folks see the value in this. I know I do. I have a family too.

What we are saying is any aircraft that has SWA on it, a SWA pilot should be flying it.

 

[SWA Bubba]

We'll see, Bubba.

I could be completely wrong, but if Southwest takes the stance that we are ALL Southwest pilots on 1/1/15 by virtue of being all on one contract under one operating certificate and one seniority list, then where is the Scope violation?

Do you have the exact text of 1.C.1 to quote? The PDF copy I have doesn't allow me to cut and paste (I really should get a better PDF editor for my Mac).

Well, here's the entire exact text of paragraph 1.C.1., copied from the electronic version of the contract. I've highlighted the portion that I believe would give us a grieveable scope violation. If Southwest takes the stance that we're ALL Southwest pilots on 1/1/15, then NONE of us can fly an Airtran plane.

Bubba

1. Mergers
In the event of a transaction or series of transactions with an air carrier or any person or
entity that owns or controls or is owned or controlled by an air carrier, which may result in an
operational merger, the Company will require, as an irrevocable condition of such transaction
or series of transactions, that the transferee will offer full-time regular employment to all
pilots employed within the bargaining unit on the date of the transaction, provide such pilots
with the seniority integration procedures established under Sections 3 and 13 of the
"Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protection Provisions", 59 CAB 22 (1972), (including accepting
Master Electronic Version #4 January 6, 2012​

the pilot seniority list obtained through that process as the pilot seniority list of the merged
carrier), and maintain the statutory status quo of rates of pay, rules and working conditions
established under this Agreement pending such operational merger. Pending any period of
separate operation prior to operational merger and integration of collective bargaining
agreements and pilot seniority lists, which shall be no longer than twenty-four (24) months,
unless mutually agreed upon by the Company and the Association, the successor shall keep
separate the flight operations of the carriers and will not transfer or interchange crews,
equipment and/or routes between the carriers unless otherwise negotiated and agreed to by
the Association, and shall ensure that all Company aircraft on hand or on order at the time of
the transaction are operated only by pilots on the Southwest Airlines’ Master Pilot Seniority
List. The successor shall meet promptly with the Association to negotiate implementation of
these requirements and any other "Fence Agreement" to be effective in the period prior to an
operational merger. Before seniority lists are integrated in accordance with this section, no
pilot on the SWA Master Pilot Seniority List will be furloughed.​

 

[texman]

All I can say is every AT folk that I have meet has been awesome. Hopefully there is a big azz elephant in the room that will allow for some type of certainty overall.

 

[humveedriver]

The SWA name is. We didn't buy seats, we bought a airline. Fair and square is the price that your ceo took. Don't forget. BF and the shareholders sold you guys.

M/B was the saving grace. It saved a lot of job loss and headache. Expecially in a crappy economy. I just hope the AT folks see the value in this. I know I do. I have a family too.

What we are saying is any aircraft that has SWA on it, a SWA pilot should be flying it.

I just haven't seen (AA/TWA, US/AWA, DAL/NWA, UAL/CAL or any regional airline integration) where the smaller airline loses all their captain seats. I know you are junior and didn't sign up for this mess. This 717 thing could have been handled better. I think SWA used the 717 for negotiation leverage with Boeing and the large Max order. They couln't just tip their cards in May/June and tell us the 717s were going to be history very quickly. They had to keep it vague. So they pissed off some pilots in return for getting a good deal on airplanes. That's what I call just business in the airline industry. Not the emotional crap.

 

[humveedriver]

All I can say is every AT folk that I have meet has been awesome. Hopefully there is a big azz elephant in the room that will allow for some type of certainty overall.

Thanks! My commute on SWA has been a really positive experience since we shut down DFW. Just got To get through these choppy waters.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, a plan is just that, a plan. An old saying, "Plans never make it past first contact with the enemy".

 

[redflyer65]

To answer your question, a 12th year FO at SWA currently makes $132.84/trip x 90 trips min reserve = 11,956/mo or about $144k per year. That's the minimum. An FO with 10 years or more of seniority is very senior, and can easily work his schedule to fly 130 or more trips/month with little effort and still no more (or not much more) than 15 days worked per month (what a reserve works for his 90 trips). Pushing $200k is very common for a senior FO.

I realize that this doesn't change a seat displacement, but I hope it helps by addressing your question. I'm like you: I'd rather be a bottom-feeding captain than a uber-senior FO, although the reality is that there's not a whole lot of difference at Southwest between the pay of a reserve captain and a crafty, senior FO.

Bubba

Bubba got to it before I did. Nobody over here works minimum. Could it happen, sure but there is usually plenty to pick up from other pilots. I've been averaging 120 TFP/month lately and it's still higher than 11,900 quoted above and I haven't been here anywhere close to 12 years.

AAI 12yr CA at 70hrs = 11,550. There is a big difference to made over here once you transistion.

 

[redflyer65]

Thanks! My commute on SWA has been a really positive experience since we shut down DFW. Just got To get through these choppy waters.

Well stated Sir. I'm looking forward to everyone being on the same side. I'd prefer sooner than later.

 

[humveedriver]

Lear, a plan is just that, a plan. An old saying, "Plans never make it past first contact with the enemy".

Correct! Followed by the S-3 saying "Sir, we need to adjust fire on this plan".

 

[texman]

I just haven't seen (AA/TWA, US/AWA, DAL/NWA, UAL/CAL or any regional airline integration) where the smaller airline loses all their captain seats. I know you are junior and didn't sign up for this mess. This 717 thing could have been handled better. I think SWA used the 717 for negotiation leverage with Boeing and the large Max order. They couln't just tip their cards in May/June and tell us the 717s were going to be history very quickly. They had to keep it vague. So they pissed off some pilots in return for getting a good deal on airplanes. That's what I call just business in the airline industry. Not the emotional crap.

Ok, I am a sympathic person and understand.

Lear 70, thanks for the reply earlier.

 

[Lear70]

Pending any period of separate operation prior to operational merger and integration of collective bargaining agreements and pilot seniority lists, which shall be no longer than twenty-four (24) months, unless mutually agreed upon by the Company and the Association, the successor shall keep separate the flight operations of the carriers and will not transfer or interchange crews, equipment and/or routes between the carriers unless otherwise negotiated and agreed to by the Association, and shall ensure that all Company aircraft on hand or on order at the time of the transaction are operated only by pilots on the Southwest Airlines’ Master Pilot Seniority List.

There we go, thanks. Here's the fun part:

1. "Prior to operational merger": Your agreement doesn't call for "Complete" Operational Merger to trigger this section, just "operational merger". If everything in Flt Ops has been merged, including dispatchers, scheduling, operations, and all that remains are a few airplanes that are going away at 3 per month to Delta and 20-30 737's that haven't been taken over the partition but are scheduled to during the year, all of which make up less than 2% of your total fleet size, you're going to have a hard time arguing that the airlines haven't been operationally merged.

2. "Integration of Collective Bargaining Agreements": happens on 1/1/15.

3. "Integration of pilot seniority lists" will happen the moment we have single carrier status with the NMB and the 1/1/15 snap-up to the Southwest CBA happens. Legally-speaking, we are already on the Southwest master seniority list and once we are also on your CBA and represented by SWAPA, there IS no more AirTran seniority list; we're all SWAPA.

It takes those 3 things to trigger the "must keep separate" clause. 1/1/15 and NMB single carrier representation takes care of all but #1 which is a tough sale when there's nothing left but a few airplanes on our side of the partition, half of which are going to another airline anyway.

Again, not saying you're wrong, just be prepared that the language in the SIA has been crafted VERY carefully to make sure that if integration stretches past 1/1/15, and SWAPA doesn't give them an extension on COI, there's enough teeth in the SIA to get around your 1.c.1 above and they'd only have to draw it out for 8-9 months in order for the point to be moot anyway.

Wish I didn't have to be suspicious, thought we were done with all of that when SWA bought us, but recent experience has taught me that things may not always be what they seem, even at Southwest.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, I'm a little lost, whats the ramifications here again? Sorry, I'm being stupid today.