It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[kwick]

A_R_B_I_T_R_A_T_I_O_N! It worked for Frontier! And ATA! Ooopps, 0 for 2... Let EISCHEN work his magic, and THEN you can blame someone for real! Then you can get back to whining, complaining and talking smack about each other....its what pilots do!

You need to do a little research before you
post such nonsense.

Neither Ata or Frontier went to arbitation.

Airtran pilots would be foolish to follow
In their footsteps, and trust any deal with
SW without a fairly arbitrated agreement.

People that do not know history are often
bound to repeat it.

 

[Red Baron]

This thread is like a broken record.

 

[Tripower455]

Music,

This thing sucks for both sides. It's all about perspective.

Exactly... The definition of a perfect SLI is that everyone on both sides is ticked.

Everyone hates this one, on both sides, so, it appears that we have the perfect SLI solution right before our eyes!

 

[Music]

WE CAN'T GIVE UP OUR SEAT!!! If we do we have to wait for all SWA fos to upgrade before we can bid the left seat again. EVEN IF THEY ARE JUNIOR TO US!! If I could get the left seat when my seniority would hold it again then I would give it up for awhile. I don't have a choice because of the way the language is written.

I understand of course, but reality (at least for us on the 73) will most likely result in the Junior 73 captains bouncing around the SW system with no seniority, flexing between CA and FO. That will get old. Maybe not for some, by likely for many. As a result, my ability to maintain any QOL will diminish until I (again me) will have to decide whether to give up my seat. I don't know if I will or won't, it's in the future if this agreement is ratified. What I do know, is as of right now, I don't want to risk it with my family. Again ME.

 

[humveedriver]

I understand of course, but reality (at least for us on the 73) will most likely result in the Junior 73 captains bouncing around the SW system with no seniority, flexing between CA and FO. That will get old. Maybe not for some, by likely for many. As a result, my ability to maintain any QOL will diminish until I (again me) will have to decide whether to give up my seat. I don't know if I will or won't, it's in the future if this agreement is ratified. What I do know, is as of right now, I don't want to risk it with my family. Again ME.

I'm sitting at the same seniority as Music. And I came to the exact same conclusion, when looking soley at how this AIP will effect ME. This offer to keep our seats is much different than upgrading due to attrition or growth. It guarantees that you will be on reserve and quite possibly without a domicile for the better part of 9 years. Thats different than a regular upgrade experience. Yes, in theory no AT CPT should volunteer to give up their seat because it can't be filled by another AT FO and will take a decade to get back at least. But it will happen. We will have pilots that live in DAL/HOU/MDW/BWI/MCO/PHX for certain that will decide that driving to their trip for the first time in their careers, outweighs that seat. I suspect most will bank the extra cash, pay off debt and then take the downgrade. This will cause a ripple effect until finally it hits a seniority level that wont give up the seat or is ATL based. I for one support a strict DOH with no protections and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[waveflyer]

I don't hate at all, just refuting his statement that AAI is a low paying LCC.
In fact, next to WN, it is about the highest paying one, paying more than half the legacys. I posted the rates from APC to support my statement.

Generally ridiculous? I merely refuted an very inaccurate statement he made. There seems to be a misconception at WN that the pay at AAI is substandard. While not on parity with Southwest, it above all other LCC's, and half of the legacy's. I'm thrilled your FO's have such a high rate of pay.
To answer your next statement, approx 2/3's of AAI CA's are above a 10 yr pay scale which is better than 150/hr.

Straight date of hire increases my seniority by over 4 years. If it means I lose my seat and the ATL base, so be it. I'll even leave you the keys to my airport car.

A 32 % loss of seniority is a bitter pill to swallow. Would you vote yes for something like that?

There's that math deficient 32% again.... For the 100th time- Under DOH, what would your % loss of seniority be?

And again- what were your rates at the snapshot? They are the only one's that count in this.

I can't speak for you. I turned down AT back in 2005 for better options- you guys were getting beat down, fighting for a semi-par contract-

I personally believe in SWA. That's why I applied and didn't stop til I got the job. So yes- in your situation- you'd be an idiot not to thank god every day for this agreement- and the opportunity to fly at swa.

You got bought. We're weaker in every sense of the word- youre getting huge money- yeah- I think "bitter pill" is a bullish/t comment when I've got a whole lot of friends striving to be new hires.

Again-
Since you avoided the one question that matters- and I am challenging you: Name one real thing that a Swapa pilot is getting out of this deal, that AT pilots aren't getting in spades.
No signing bonus, no stock, no raises, no bump up in longevity pay- Please- name 1 thing

 

[Kharma Police]

There's that math deficient 32% again.... For the 100th time- Under DOH, what would your % loss of seniority be?

And again- what were your rates at the snapshot? They are the only one's that count in this.

I can't speak for you. I turned down AT back in 2005 for better options- you guys were getting beat down, fighting for a semi-par contract-
I personally believe in SWA. That's why I applied and didn't stop til I got the job. So yes- in your situation- you'd be an idiot not to thank god every day for this agreement- and the opportunity to fly at swa.

You got bought. We're weaker in every sense of the word- youre getting huge money- yeah- I think "bitter pill" is a bullish/t comment when I've got a whole lot of friends striving to be new hires.

Again-
Since you avoided the one question that letters- and I am challenging you: Name one real thing that a Swapa pilot is getting out of this deal, that AT pilots aren't getting in spades.
No signing bonus, no stock, no raises, no bump up in longevity pay- Please- name 1 thing

Well, you get to be my FO, which will be FANTASTIC for you (and me)!!!!!

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I love the term fair and neutral arbitration. Anybody read about how screwed up Arbitration is and how it is being used by companies to limit their liability to consumers. Ask some of your coworkers how their arbitration hearings went and how black and white issues were ruled completely against logic. Who is paying the arbitrators. Who do the arbitrators want to get work from again in the future. The arbitration ruling does not have to be based on any past practice or any set precedent. Be careful what you wish for with a "neutral" arbitrator.

 

[waveflyer]

Hey man, it's only bad for you if you don't like women and vodka!
This is not an ego thing- I've flown Left seat, more than the right- what matters to me is coming to work and enjoying my job.


Humvee- where on earth do you think you deserve a DOH integration with the company that bought you. You get your longevity for pay- but me and our FOs shouldn't be punished for taking the extra time it took to get the swa job- that's a fact you guys like to ignore- but it's relevant in seniority- pilots left AT for us- those that didn't took years longer getting on with swa than AT-

So lay it all out- our sides been clear-

Do you as AT pilots feel this is a "merger of equals"

We're all equal to god- I've already said I'll never fly with better pilots than in my 1900, it's not a skill thing-

It IS about one job being a better more time consuming job to get.

Should we not be rewarded for that effort?

 

[Music]

I love the term fair and neutral arbitration. Anybody read about how screwed up Arbitration is and how it is being used by companies to limit their liability to consumers. Ask some of your coworkers how their arbitration hearings went and how black and white issues were ruled completely against logic. Who is paying the arbitrators. Who do the arbitrators want to get work from again in the future. The arbitration ruling does not have to be based on any past practice or any set precedent. Be careful what you wish for with a "neutral" arbitrator.

This is exactly why my decision to vote no was difficult to arrive at, I have no idea what will happen in Arby. My hope is that after it's all said and done (via the process agreement) the final result will be better for my family then the current agreement before us. I'm painfully aware of all of the threats and consequences that have been brought up if we end up in Arbitration and as I said, if I have to find another job, then so be it. In the end, all I want is to have some modicum (REPEAT, modicum) of QOL that I had before this happened. The current agreement will not even scratch the surface of what I currently have. And while it's clear another job wouldn't provide that either, I still have to vote my conscience based on the current agreement.

 

[dicko]

There's that math deficient 32% again.... For the 100th time- Under DOH, what would your % loss of seniority be?

An interesting question. I dusted of my trusty abacus and after 3 hours of work came up with 45989 % ...... I was shocked.

Reworking the numbers I found that my seniority loss using DOH would be 11%. I'd be a very, very junior CA. Under this proposed agreement I'm a very, very junior CA and I will remain that way for the next 10 years.

The advantage of DOH would be that there would be no need for all of the protections and conditions. I still wouldn't be able to hold ATL and a SWA pilot probably would. No problem.

 

[GoodTimes]

Why argue about the agreement now? It is what it is. Vote accordingly if an when you're given the opportunity.

 

[humveedriver]

Humvee- where on earth do you think you deserve a DOH integration with the company that bought you. You get your longevity for pay- but me and our FOs shouldn't be punished for taking the extra time it took to get the swa job- that's a fact you guys like to ignore

Wave the best I can offer is I'm sorry SWA bought us. I know it messes things up for alot of people. For the next ten years at least. I don't think SWA will be the same after this. It won't be terrible. But I think it's just another step in making SWA another large corporation. I hope I'm wrong. I have always admired the slow steady growth of SWA, seems like GK is getting away from what has worked for so long. I guess that's one reason why I think the seniority number is worth more than the seat. Understand I am a 2001 guy sitting on the upgrade fence by SWA timelines.

 

[Music]

Wave the best I can offer is I'm sorry SWA bought us. I know it messes things up for alot of people. For the next ten years at least. I don't think SWA will be the same after this. It won't be terrible. But I think it's just another step in making SWA another large corporation. I hope I'm wrong. I have always admired the slow steady growth of SWA, seems like GK is getting away from what has worked for so long. I guess that's one reason why I think the seniority number is worth more than the seat. Understand I am a 2001 guy sitting on the upgrade fence by SWA timelines.

If we were looking at an agreement that was much closer to DOH, even without many of the proposed C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" us, I would be much more willing to vote yes. Unfortunately, we're not. That's why you're seeing many of the AT captains that this agreement was supposed to appeal to, reject it.

 

[Kharma Police]

If we were looking at an agreement that was much closer to DOH, even without many of the proposed C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" us, I would be much more willing to vote yes. Unfortunately, we're not. That's why you're seeing many of the AT captains that this agreement was supposed to appeal to, reject it.

I trust Slick and Big Sis about as far as I can throw them, we have the right to decide our own future. I have a list of questions for the roadshow but for now, I'm voting yes.

 

[GuppyWN]

If we were looking at an agreement that was much closer to DOH, even without many of the proposed C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" us, I would be much more willing to vote yes. Unfortunately, we're not. That's why you're seeing many of the AT captains that this agreement was supposed to appeal to, reject it.

How much closer do DOH? Just scanning the list I don't recall seeing ANY Airtran captain losing 3.5 years. 3 at the top to under 2 at the bottom is what I remember.

Gup

 

[dicko]

How much closer do DOH? Just scanning the list I don't recall seeing ANY Airtran captain losing 3.5 years. 3 at the top to under 2 at the bottom is what I remember.

Gup

I lost 3.75 years. I'd show you, but then I'd have to keep you in my basement.

 

[Music]

I trust Slick and Big Sis about as far as I can throw them, we have the right to decide our own future. I have a list of questions for the roadshow but for now, I'm voting yes.

I do get that. I really do. As a matter of fact, I too have very little confidence in the union right now. Unfortunately, my vote is not a referendum on my confidence in the union. My no vote is based solely on the agreement. As I stated in my original post earlier today, I am voting for what's bet for my family, and I would expect others to do same, so I respect that you have to vote yes for your own reasons Karma.

 

[GuppyWN]

I lost 3.75 years. I'd show you, but then I'd have to keep you in my basement.

LOL.... fair enough. I think I'll take your word for it.

Gup

 

[Music]

How much closer do DOH? Just scanning the list I don't recall seeing ANY Airtran captain losing 3.5 years. 3 at the top to under 2 at the bottom is what I remember.

Gup

Gup, I lost 3.91 years as an 11 year captain (mid '01 to mid '05). Unfortunately, the C & Rs are as much of a problem as the SLI, for me that is.

 

[GuppyWN]

all I want is to have some modicum (REPEAT, modicum) of QOL that I had before this happened. The current agreement will not even scratch the surface of what I currently have. And while it's clear another job wouldn't provide that either, I still have to vote my conscience based on the current agreement.

Since you're protected in ATL you could bid back to FO, be #1, have the same/more pay than today AND you're QOL would be "off da hook!"

,
Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

I do get that. I really do. As a matter of fact, I too have very little confidence in the union right now. Unfortunately, my vote is not a referendum on my confidence in the union. My no vote is based solely on the agreement. As I stated in my original post earlier today, I am voting for what's bet for my family, and I would expect others to do same, so I respect that you have to vote yes for your own reasons Karma.

I think we will be playing Russian Roulette with a pistol not a revolver if this goes to arbitration. The sad thing is you and I will be sitting directly next to Slick and Big Sis when they pull the trigger. I hope I'm wrong...........

 

[DonVerita]

Since you're protected in ATL you could bid back to FO, be #1, have the same/more pay than today AND you're QOL would be "off da hook!"

,
Gup

Why should he have to?

A fair and equitable SLI would allow him to hold his current seat at his current QOL.

Anyone who downgrades will not see a re-up for a long, long time. So it's pointless to even think of doing it.

 

[humveedriver]

I can see DOH minus 2 because of the retirements on the SWA side. But the 3.9 Year loss that I fall into as well makes me look at arb. as a better option. The C and R essentially forces the jr AT Cpts to keep their seats or else. That's why I think this deal doesn't pass muster. It's all about GK keeping his training costs down. There is too much lose/lose for both sides.

 

[Music]

Since you're protected in ATL you could bid back to FO, be #1, have the same/more pay than today AND you're QOL would be "off da hook!"

,
Gup

Gup, I kinda went through all of the reasons why that wouldn't be good for me or my family earlier today. Bottomline, it's not in our best interest to vote yes on this agreement. I say that with absolutely no bravado whatsoever, just regrettable sincerity.

 

[GuppyWN]

Why should he have to?

A fair and equitable SLI would allow him to hold his current seat at his current QOL.

Anyone who downgrades will not see a re-up for a long, long time. So it's pointless to even think of doing it.

It was a joke Don.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

Gup, I kinda went through all of the reasons why that wouldn't be good for me or my family earlier today. Bottomline, it's not in our best interest to vote yes on this agreement. I say that with absolutely no bravado whatsoever, just regrettable sincerity.

If you're a 717 guy your QOL will be identical to today. Correct?

Gup

 

[Music]

I think we will be playing Russian Roulette with a pistol not a revolver if this goes to arbitration. The sad thing is you and I will be sitting directly next to Slick and Big Sis when they pull the trigger. I hope I'm wrong...........

Again you're right Kharma, it is Russian roulette, and it took me a long time to read and digest the magnitude of this agreement and how it effects my family to reach my decision to vote no (again, if given the choice to). Believe me, I take no pleasure in voting no, and again understand the full ramifications of doing so.

sighhhhhh....

 

[Music]

If you're a 717 guy your QOL will be identical to today. Correct?

Gup

I'm not. I'm a 73 guy. If I was a 71 guy my decision might be different. But I didn't analyze the agreement from that perspective.

 

[freightdogfred]

There's that math deficient 32% again.... For the 100th time- Under DOH, what would your % loss of seniority be?

I dunno. I looked at that list 1 time, could not bear to look again. I'm in the 5200's, which lumps me in with WN-07 hires. I'm in the top third at AAI, so that would put me in the bottom third. My 02 DOH would put me about middle of the road I guess, somewhere at the top of a FO side I'm thinking so a loss of around 10% with DOH.

And again- what were your rates at the snapshot? They are the only one's that count in this.

About 153/hr- far from the lowest paying LCC as you claimed.

I can't speak for you. I turned down AT back in 2005 for better options- you guys were getting beat down, fighting for a semi-par contract-

I'm ecstatic for you, you landed your dream job. When my last job went down the ********************ter, I shotgunned out resumes everywhere, AAI hired me. I got an email from WN stating to update my resume electronically as they were going to a new database. I replied thanx, but I got a job.

I personally believe in SWA. That's why I applied and didn't stop til I got the job. So yes- in your situation- you'd be an idiot not to thank god every day for this agreement- and the opportunity to fly at swa.

I have lotsa homeboys over there at WN. I'm excited at the opportunities the merger can bring, and if successful can really shake things up on the domestic market. I don't feel this AIP is fair to either side, the fact there are so many fences and restrictions is testament to that fact. Not wanting to give up my seniority does not mean I'm not excited to be at WN, or mean that I'm an idiot. That's a pretty condescending statement.

You got bought. We're weaker in every sense of the word- youre getting huge money- yeah- I think "bitter pill" is a bullish/t comment when I've got a whole lot of friends striving to be new hires.

Weaker? GK got AAI for what...700 mil in cash, and the rest in stock? AAI had 450 mil in the bank. So he shoved out 250 mil and a bunch of paper and got 150 airplanes, routes that are up and running, overwater certification, the ATL hub, another MX hangar and 1700 pilots ready to pull just as hard as any WN pilot. I have not gone out a bought a big yacht with my huge WN raise just yet. I ask you- would you be willing to take a 32% seniority hit, for a captain's seat? Give me DOH as a minimum, you can have my seat. Have fun on reserve. (BTW i have lots of friends over there who can write recs for your friends.

Again-
Since you avoided the one question that matters- and I am challenging you: Name one real thing that a Swapa pilot is getting out of this deal, that AT pilots aren't getting in spades.
No signing bonus, no stock, no raises, no bump up in longevity pay- Please- name 1 thing

The one thing that SWAPA gets out of the deal, is the same thing GK, and all WN and AAI employees get- A way bigger, stronger, more nimble more competitive airline. It's been said many times on here that 1 reason WN bought AAI was to get rid of a major competitor, GK is no fool.
If the Seniority list is integrated fairly and properly, WN pilots should see an automatic 250-300 immediate upgrades. So be it.