It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[Flycatcher99]

Doesn't get it.

And again the question hangs unanswered...why do you care what other SWA pilots earn? Does it reduce your pay somehow? Or is it just an excuse to staple 650 AAI F/Os, ban them from upgrading for a decade and ensuring you jump the upgrade line?

I think the answer is obvious.

I don't care what the acquired pilots earn, up until they make more than a SWA pilot makes for the same longevity. That's wrong, and if you're honest, you'd agree.

Otherwise, no, I don't mind that they are making a windfall increase in salary and benefits. I'm honestly glad for them. You know what will be even more enjoyable than seeing their eyes light up on the 5th and 20th of every month? Seeing their eyes light up when they see our rigs, or the motherlode they can pull in on a reroute, making premium for a moveup in report time or a reroute that gets them in to an overnight 5 minutes later than scheduled. Milk and honey doth flow. I know you think I'm embelleshing for effect. These guys will see. You won't, of course, but they will.

As for stapling 650 guys, I'm sorry, but that is not unreasonable, not with the increase in career earnings they will see. And if delayed upgrade is a problem, be assured that SWA FOs like myself will share in the misery. There will be no upgrades for quite a while, between the merging of operations, the pulling back in cities served, and the adjustment of pilot manning models.

 

[Flycatcher99]

2 Things:

1. Upgrade in the next decade (and none of us, even this AIP's cheerleaders, are trying to push the "virtual upgrade by pay" argument - it's not the same as upgrading. Most of us have spent the majority of our careers in the left seat. We like it there, and so do you. It's OK to say so. Really.

2. Override pay for flying for someone junior to you by Date of Hire. You get a 25% override to your existing rates if you get a line with someone junior to you by DoH as your CA. We don't when the shoe goes on the other foot, and it does by the end of the 9 year upgrade lock-out, and stays that way for another decade, much longer than your guys will have to fly with ours and in much higher numbers (there are over 1,500 guys who will be senior to me with lesser Dates of Hire).

I'm not angry about either of those, although I'm not thrilled by the first one (a 9 year lock-out on upgrades? Even for our own top 20 senior guys who were next to upgrade in the next few months in which their upgrade class was cancelled just prior to vacancy notice because of this deal?).

Just playing Devil's Advocate that there ARE benefits for the SWA pilots from this. Never said there shouldn't be.

GhettoBeechJet gave you 50% on this, but I can't be that generous. He already mentioned the cessation of upgrades for both sides, so that answers your #1.

As for #2, SWA got the 1.25 for flying with a junior captain. In return, and specifically for the reason that we got the 1.25, ALPA demanded "me-too", and received from SWA mgmt $500k, which they decided to disperse as increased longevity pay for your senior FO's.

We got nothing that you didn't get. The same cannot be said in reverse.

 

[Flycatcher99]

I hate to piss in your wheaties but you speaketh with forked tongue

12 yr 737/narrowbody captain pay, as taken from AirlinePilotCentral

Alaska-177/hr
DAL-174/hr
AMR-166/hr
AAI-162/hr
JetBlue-159/hr
CO-150/hr
US Air-138/hr
UAL-137/hr

Your simple fact is in error

Try using your pre-contract, pre-acquisition-announcement numbers. You are being completely disingenuous by quoting pay that was negotiated with Air Tran management, once they knew they wouldn't be in the hole for it anymore.

Talk about forked tongues.

 

[On Your Six]

If this goes to arbitration, then I will support the 40 year play book. Or even something along the linesof: all AT guys start at 1st year longevity Pay with probation and change Captain upgrades to require at least 5 years SWA longevity. The Captains seat is essentially a management / leadership position. A plane is a plane, and we are all good enough sticks, but in the real world, aquireing leadership usually picks who the bosses are in the "merger."

Yeah, right! The arbitrator would tell you what you would get. You need to review what has recently happened in the "real world."


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Try using your pre-contract, pre-acquisition-announcement numbers. You are being completely disingenuous by quoting pay that was negotiated with Air Tran management, once they knew they wouldn't be in the hole for it anymore.

Talk about forked tongues.

The real question is why haven't you agreed on a joint contract prior to your SLI, the same way the ONLY smooth merger has gone so far? What are you afraid of?


OYS

 

[Flycatcher99]

The real question is why haven't you agreed on a joint contract prior to your SLI, the same way the ONLY smooth merger has gone so far? What are you afraid of?


OYS

Um, two different unions?

 

[On Your Six]

Um, two different unions?

Um, you could agree on payrates and work rules? How about settling on SWA's? Maybe a slight raise or extra stock for your participation? But, you want something from the AT guys, when GK made the decision to buy them, not SWAPA. That is the problem. If you want more, ask the people above you who can give it to you, not people with less that didn't decide on their fate. It works out for them, sure, until they see what you have in store for them.


OYS

 

[Cometman]

ALPA is using ALL of the negotiating timeline. IF it reaches your membership and IF it's voted down by either side there will be zero time left to negotiate anything.

I think it's two fold. First, ALPA doesn't WANT any time on the clock when they take their last shot and secondly, the Jetblue drive is decided on the day before your MEC will vote.

Can't disagree with the remainder of your post.

Gup

I think the parties can continue to negotiate even during arbitration. They can always settle before a ruling. I believe it would be just like a defendant in trial.

 

[Empennage]

Yeah, right! The arbitrator would tell you what you would get. You need to review what has recently happened in the "real world."


OYS

Please familiarize yourself with what the arbitrators actually determine. Please review the rewards you are talking about.

This poster may or may not be right. However your lack of knowledge in the matter makes your post factually incorrect.

 

[freightdogfred]

Try using your pre-contract, pre-acquisition-announcement numbers. You are being completely disingenuous by quoting pay that was negotiated with Air Tran management, once they knew they wouldn't be in the hole for it anymore.

Talk about forked tongues.

The fact the announcement had been made is the only reason these numbers were not higher. Most of the group had the fight taken out of them with the prospect of higher pay with the merger. And the lion's share of the raises went to the FO side, not the captain's. With no announcement things would have been a lil different methinks, but whatever.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Otherwise, no, I don't mind that they are making a windfall increase in salary and benefits....As for stapling 650 guys, I'm sorry, but that is not unreasonable, not with the increase in career earnings they will see.

Okay, you SWA f/os win. I give up. You have swallowed the "pay as windfall" herring hook, line and sinker.

As indicated by your own words, you are so incredibly egotistcal and greedy that you are willing to steal the rightful seniority of 650 of your coworkers in order to personally advance professionally.

And, its obvious, regardless of what you SAY, you don't give a fig about your vaunted SWA "culture". Apparently your idea of "culture" is I GOT MINE.

Whatever.

You're the ones who are going to have to deal with 1500 p.o.ed pilots the rest of your career. You're the ones who will have poisoned the flight deck atmosphere and made SWA a less safe airline.

Hope you're happy.

 

[Lear70]

GhettoBeechJet gave you 50% on this, but I can't be that generous. He already mentioned the cessation of upgrades for both sides, so that answers your #1.

They won't cease for 9 years straight. They will continue for your F/O's. Including the upgrades for our retirements and voluntary downgrades. Your pilots are getting something our pilots are not over the next decade.

As for #2, SWA got the 1.25 for flying with a junior captain. In return, and specifically for the reason that we got the 1.25, ALPA demanded "me-too", and received from SWA mgmt $500k, which they decided to disperse as increased longevity pay for your senior FO's.

I consider myself a senior F/O'. I didn't get jack of that. I'm simply pointing out to you that, again, your pilots got something many of ours won't get.

We got nothing that you didn't get. The same cannot be said in reverse.

You have your perception. We have ours.

 

[737tanker]

SWA got the 1.25 for flying with a junior captain

Only if the flying was on the F/Os original line. If the F/O got the trip from Give Away or Open time then he gets nothing. Also the 1.25 applies only to the leg, not to any rigs! The AirTran F/Os, who were deemed on the CUSP of upgrade, get the 2 year longevity increase for all of their flying.

 

[Lear70]

Only if the flying was on the F/Os original line. If the F/O got the trip from Give Away or Open time then he gets nothing. Also the 1.25 applies only to the leg, not to any rigs! The AirTran F/Os, who were deemed on the CUSP of upgrade, get the 2 year longevity increase for all of their flying.

It's a graduated scale, based on WHEN you were scheduled to upgrade in the existing aircraft delivery schedule, by estimated class size and date as near as I can figure.

There are people who get the full 2 years, all the way down to getting their normal longevity increase only a month in advance and it only covers about 18 months worth of upgrades. Everyone below that doesn't get anything.

 

[737tanker]

Lear
While the bump in longevity may not be a full 2 years there is a bump in longevity for the senior AirTran F/Os. For the senior SWA F/Os they only get the "bypass" pay IF they are on their original line AND IF they are flying with a former AirTran Capt who is junior to them. For the AirTran F/Os it is a sure thing, for the SWA F/O it is a roll of the dice!

 

[dicko]

Only if the flying was on the F/Os original line. If the F/O got the trip from Give Away or Open time then he gets nothing. Also the 1.25 applies only to the leg, not to any rigs! The AirTran F/Os, who were deemed on the CUSP of upgrade, get the 2 year longevity increase for all of their flying.

I don't believe that SWA FO's will see much of that 1.25 bump. Maybe none of it.

Here's why; Those junior AirTran CA's that provide the 1.25 will all be on reserve or in ATL. You will not be assigned a reserve line with these guys and girls. The only AirTran CA's that will be assigned lines will be the senior ones that don't bring the 1.25.

It's actually quite clever. It's imaginary money

 

[redflyer65]

Dicko,

Your exactly right. Gary could have made it 5X TFP and he wouldn't have had to pay it out. Just one more reason some are pissed.

RF

 

[Flycatcher99]

I consider myself a senior F/O'. I didn't get jack of that. I'm simply pointing out to you that, again, your pilots got something many of ours won't get.

Are you not one of the 175 FO's that got this?

If not, then no offense, but I wouldn't consider you a senior FO. Evidently, neither did your NC. They were the ones that decided what to do with the half million that GK gave you all.

But my point remains. You quoted our 1.25 pay as something we got that was not reciprocated to AT. This is empirically not true, as your guys received exact restitution for the amount SWAPA got. Just maybe not dispersed the way you wanted it.

 

[Flycatcher99]

I don't believe that SWA FO's will see much of that 1.25 bump. Maybe none of it.

Here's why; Those junior AirTran CA's that provide the 1.25 will all be on reserve or in ATL. You will not be assigned a reserve line with these guys and girls. The only AirTran CA's that will be assigned lines will be the senior ones that don't bring the 1.25.

It's actually quite clever. It's imaginary money

Actually, I (and many others here) agree with you on this. Besides the reason you mention, there were caveats that we will not see this for trips that are acquired through ELITT, TTGA, open time, etc. Unless a person actually bids and receives a line with a junior AT captain, they will likely never see it.

Which is why many here are questioning the math. It doesn't appear at first sight to add up to 2 million.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Okay, you SWA f/os win. I give up. You have swallowed the "pay as windfall" herring hook, line and sinker.

You know what, you're right. I can't believe that I thought that a lot of money could possibly be a windfall.

I'm so stupid.

 

[Lear70]

Are you not one of the 175 FO's that got this?

If not, then no offense, but I wouldn't consider you a senior FO. Evidently, neither did your NC. They were the ones that decided what to do with the half million that GK gave you all.

I understand that, and opinions vary, although I'd argue that bidding #7 in base, all weekends off and holidays, and scheduled to upgrade with our current order of aircraft is "senior" as seen by other AAI F/O's, but hey, what do I know, I just work here.

(I just barely missed the cutoff for that, as well as the cutoff for Club 649).

The fact remains that many of your F/O's who are junior to me by Date of Hire will get something that I don't in several respects. The ability to bid better schedules, the extra pay if they get "stuck" with one of our very junior CA's (like Dicko said, unlikely, but it's there), and the ability to upgrade before I do, even if they're junior to me by date of hire and they STAY senior to me my entire career.

There ARE gains on your side over ours in this deal. If you don't want to recognize them, that's fine, that's completely your choice, and you are, of course, free to vote accordingly.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You know what, you're right. I can't believe that I thought that a lot of money could possibly be a windfall.

I'm so stupid.

Of course I am. Its a SENIORITY LIST INTEGRATION not a PAY LIST INTEGRATION. And the first step to recovery is admitting your problem.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Of course I am. Its a SENIORITY LIST INTEGRATION not a PAY LIST INTEGRATION. And the first step to recovery is admitting your problem.

Only a complete mental pygmy would argue that comparative pay and contracts should have no bearing on an SLI. And to solidify your status as a mental pygmy, you made the moronic statement that the term windfall has nothing to do with financial gains.

I'm done here. There's nothing more that can be said. But please, feel free to keep blathering, as it only serves to prove my points.

 

[On Your Six]

Only a complete mental pygmy would argue that comparative pay and contracts should have no bearing on an SLI. And to solidify your status as a mental pygmy, you made the moronic statement that the term windfall has nothing to do with financial gains.

I'm done here. There's nothing more that can be said. But please, feel free to keep blathering, as it only serves to prove my points.

That's exactly what happened in the DL/NWA SLI. The payrates were settled beforehand, and then the SLI was done by arbitrators. Payrates also didn't seem to matter to the arbitrator in the Colgan/PNCL/Mesaba SLI. Colgan was paid less than almost everyone, yet their pilots were mixed in equally with their jet pilot counterparts. Looks like you are done here.


OYS

 

[waveflyer]

Ok- everyone here was either in the military or left another airline-

Why did you leave to start over at THE BOTTOM?

 

[On Your Six]

Ok- everyone here was either in the military or left another airline-

Why did you leave to start over at THE BOTTOM?

More choices? A better future?


OYS

 

[waveflyer]

More choices? A better future?


OYS

Go on... Define better future

 

[Fubijaakr]

That's exactly what happened in the DL/NWA SLI. The payrates were settled beforehand, and then the SLI was done by arbitrators. Payrates also didn't seem to matter to the arbitrator in the Colgan/PNCL/Mesaba SLI. Colgan was paid less than almost everyone, yet their pilots were mixed in equally with their jet pilot counterparts. Looks like you are done here.

Exactly. All these guys are hanging their hat (if they wear one, that is!) on is the Shuttle America arbitration.

NO OTHER arbitration has used pay rates for SLI.

The only thing waveygravey is fishing for is, "We went to another airline or from the military for a better paycheck." No ********************, Sherlock.

However, he still won't say why it matters how much another SWA pilot makes, does he?

The only reason it matters is that is wavey's reason for stealing someone else's seniority and jumping the line for an upgrade so....

Wait for it....

Wait for it...

HE CAN MAKE MORE MONEY!

What a surprise.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, i.e. that the conditions that were in force before the merger should remain in force after the merger. Again, the whole "career expectations" b.s.

Career expectations was introduced as a way to keep pilots whose airline consisted of narrowbody equipment off the widebody equipment of their merger partner. It was, in effect, just a way of relegating those "inferior" narrowbody pilots from the high paying widebody international flying.

It was, to put it bluntly, a seniority grab. Those pilots who were hired at the widebody operator thought they were "entitled" to those seats because, after all, the narrowbody guys had no "expectation" of ever flying one.

Its the same thing you guys are trying to do to AAI pilots, only you're using pay as the "career expectation".

The single biggest mistake ALPA has made in 50 years was rolling over to UAL pilots in the early '90s and removing DoH as a criteria for SLI mergers and replacing it with "career expectations." And the whole reason they did it was to keep USAir pilots "in their place" in a merger that never went through.

Look, fair is fair. At some point, you're all going to be one group. If SWA persists in trying to make AAI guys second class citizens by stapleing 650 pilots and banning them from upgrading, YOU as a Captain are going to have CRM problems when you fly with them.

Do you really think those stapled pilots aren't going to have a list of guys who jumped the line ahead of them? Your vaunted "SWA culture" is going to take a huge hit. There are still guys who are chapped about the AS/JA SLI and that went down in 1987.

Really, guys. Get over yourselves. Every single red herring you try to apply to screw the AAI pilots is bogus and deep down you know it. You're just trying to advance yourselves at the expense of other guys you're going to have to see every day for the rest of your careers.

Fuji see below still waiting for a response

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Fuji OK I'll play. Lets, as you suggested, abandon the premis that conditions that existed before the acquisition should me maintained after the acquistion. You like a DOH solution. I'll go with that as long as there is a complete system rebid based on that list afterwards. We would have to because the conditions that were in place prior to the acquisition are meaningless afterwards. Therefore there would be no way that a 6 year guy should remain a captain while a 10 year guy is an f/o.

Still waiting for a reply