It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[Kharma Police]

As one who also has no dog in this, I'll provide a retort. Your proposal would imply that the AirTran pilot essentially gets a mulligan, a magic card to pull out and experience indoc, Day One 1993, at Southwest instead of AirTran. It's as if Doc. Brown pulled up in the DeLorean and transported you to 1993, and you are bound for Dallas instead. My only question would be, what would you give the Southwest guys? What can Doc. Brown do for you?

Since I am not in employment with either carrier, I'll take the Southwest side, since it appears that no other parvenu will. It seems that the pilots from other carriers are only captivated in what would be detrimental to the Southwest pilots the most. Very enthralling, Dr. Freud would be quite immersed in this.

¿qué?

 

[SWA/FO]

tranny season!

 

[Kharma Police]

tranny season!

¿qué?

 

[Britpilot]

"It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

"Hired, NOT Acquired"

Think a lot of yourself don't you?

Here's one for you:


WGAF

 

[Flycatcher99]

And you don't consider out of seniority upgrading 2000+ SWA F/Os something you can't exercise?

Do you mean AT FO's? Because there ain't no SWA FO's going to be upgrading anytime soon. Much less 2000. I really think you must be smoking something.

Or jailing EX-AAI guys in ATL for a decade a benefit to you?

"Jailing"? Dude, are you serious? I'm starting to think you're delusional, or you have no idea what you're talking about. AT guys are the only ones with any kind of freedom. They can stay in ATL or they can leave. They can keep their captain seats or hold better QOL as FOs. They will get huge pay raises, and now evidently, will be paid better than SWA guys with the same longevity. Oh, and they get a "me too" clause, that ensures that any benefits (stock) that SWA guys get will be afforded to them as well.

The only ones left holding the bag with nothing to show for it are SWA guys. A 9% increase in seniority with no increase in QOL (thanks to ATL fences and equipment protections), no increase in pay, and a lengthened upgrade time (all AT captains keep their seats) is hardly what I'd call a windfall.

You need to get educated. This SWA group is taking it in the shorts, with only a small paper seniority increase (that does nothing) to show for it. The AT side, and ALPA in particular, are coming across as entitled spoiled brats.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Aye carumba!

A_R_B_I_T_R_A_T_I_O_N! It worked for Frontier! And ATA! Ooopps, 0 for 2... Let EISCHEN work his magic, and THEN you can blame someone for real! Then you can get back to whining, complaining and talking smack about each other....its what pilots do!

 

[tzskipper]

It seems that the pilots from other carriers are only captivated in what would be detrimental to the Southwest pilots the most. Very enthralling, Dr. Freud would be quite immersed in this.

I guess that is one view. I think history shows that by and large for a company to continue to excel post merger, that all employees need to be treated as equals. From afar, to date that does not appear to be where this is headed.

BTW, what would be considered "detrimental" about a pilot is keeping his/her seat and base, and not giving/gaining much (in the way of percentage) on a "new" combined list from their previous position on their "old" original list? As an aside, it would be interesting to see what the ratio would be in the scenario we are talking about (3 SWA pilots to every 1 AAI pilot? Maybe more?).

No big deal. Just another perspective.

S

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Again with the name calling? Is that the best you have?



And you don't consider out of seniority upgrading 2000+ SWA F/Os something you can't exercise? Or jailing EX-AAI guys in ATL for a decade a benefit to you?

Day one of the combined SLI, the AAI guys should have the right to bid ANY base in the SWA system that their rightful seniority can hold. With a no bump/no flush provision, that would open up a position for SWA guys who want and can hold ATL an opportunity to bid there.

Under this AIP, none of that can happen. You get to upgrade first and move around the SWA system at your leisure.

And you say you can't exercise the seniority windfall you'll gain? Really? You might want to rethink that statement.



Well said. I share your opinion. Add a no bump/no flush provision and you have the fairest SLI in this case.

Fuji the most interesting thing about your statement is you made it not an AAI guy.
The fences are in place to protect the AAI pilots. They are not jailed in ATL. They can bid wherever they please. I on the other hand can't bid ATL or the 717. The fact that the AAI pilots can stay in ATL where they don't have to bid against me actually works in their favor not mine.
The simple fact is that my monthly bidding power will not change much if at all as a result of this. My upgrade date will not change much if at all as a result of this. Given those facts I just don't see this as a windfall.
Fair and equitable means I should not loose career earnings as a result of the SLI. This solution protects the AAI guys seats most of their QOL and my career earnings. Your statement seems to indicate that you favor a solution that would damage my career earnings as a result of a delayed upgrade. Unlike the AAI pilots an upgrade is the only way I get a raise. I don't think I need to rethink much here. Maybe you do.

 

[jonjuan]

Fuji the most interesting thing about your statement is you made it not an AAI guy.
The fences are in place to protect the AAI pilots. They are not jailed in ATL. They can bid wherever they please. I on the other hand can't bid ATL or the 717. The fact that the AAI pilots can stay in ATL where they don't have to bid against me actually works in their favor not mine.
The simple fact is that my monthly bidding power will not change much if at all as a result of this. My upgrade date will not change much if at all as a result of this. Given those facts I just don't see this as a windfall.
Fair and equitable means I should not loose career earnings as a result of the SLI. This solution protects the AAI guys seats most of their QOL and my career earnings. Your statement seems to indicate that you favor a solution that would damage my career earnings as a result of a delayed upgrade. Unlike the AAI pilots an upgrade is the only way I get a raise. I don't think I need to rethink much here. Maybe you do.

How do you guarantee that AAI's career earnings don't suffer from what was proposed? In other words, how do you guarantee the future say 10 years from now? Remember, 17 years into their history, SWA had lower than average career earnings. Has "career earnings" ever figured into an arbitrators decision? I really don't know.

 

[Flycatcher99]

How do you guarantee that AAI's career earnings don't suffer from what was proposed? In other words, how do you guarantee the future say 10 years from now? Remember, 17 years into their history, SWA had lower than average career earnings. Has "career earnings" ever figured into an arbitrators decision? I really don't know.

It's this kind of buffoonery that makes me think I'm in a twilight zone episode.

How about this for a guarantee: The AT guys are going from a low-paying LCC, where they were angry enough at their contract that they had a 98% strike vote, to the highest-paying carrier in the United States. Would their pay at AT in 10 or 20 years from now have been better than SWA's? Sure, I guess. Also, SWA pilots might be paid even more in the future. Or AT might have ceased to exist. Or all airlines might have merged into one glorious MegaCarrier. Or wild rabid monkeys might have invaded North America and declared martial law, along with resticting airlines income to food-stamp level.

How about looking at the freakin' simple fact: they are going from low end to very high end. Period.

 

[On Your Six]

A_R_B_I_T_R_A_T_I_O_N! It worked for Frontier! And ATA! Ooopps, 0 for 2... Let EISCHEN work his magic, and THEN you can blame someone for real! Then you can get back to whining, complaining and talking smack about each other....its what pilots do!

It did work for companies with the same sized planes, like Colgan (DH8-400s) with PNCL and Mesaba. It worked with USAir (relative after the top 500 due to some differences with international flying and some larger A330s). Frontier was not stapled to Republic, even though it did have a worse balance sheet. There just weren't 650 stapled pilots like the current SWA offer, at any of the recent arbitration awards. All of them seem more fair, but that is a choice the AT pilots need to make.


OYS

 

[freightdogfred]

It's this kind of buffoonery that makes me think I'm in a twilight zone episode.

How about this for a guarantee: The AT guys are going from a low-paying LCC, where they were angry enough at their contract that they had a 98% strike vote, to the highest-paying carrier in the United States. Would their pay at AT in 10 or 20 years from now have been better than SWA's? Sure, I guess. Also, SWA pilots might be paid even more in the future. Or AT might have ceased to exist. Or all airlines might have merged into one glorious MegaCarrier. Or wild rabid monkeys might have invaded North America and declared martial law, along with resticting airlines income to food-stamp level.

How about looking at the freakin' simple fact: they are going from low end to very high end. Period.

I hate to piss in your wheaties but you speaketh with forked tongue

12 yr 737/narrowbody captain pay, as taken from AirlinePilotCentral

Alaska-177/hr
DAL-174/hr
AMR-166/hr
AAI-162/hr
JetBlue-159/hr
CO-150/hr
US Air-138/hr
UAL-137/hr

Your simple fact is in error

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

How do you guarantee that AAI's career earnings don't suffer from what was proposed? In other words, how do you guarantee the future say 10 years from now? Remember, 17 years into their history, SWA had lower than average career earnings. Has "career earnings" ever figured into an arbitrators decision? I really don't know.

Jonjuan Of course there are no guarantees but what you have to deal with is the facts as they stand. AAI was heavily debt loaded. So much so that SWAs bond rating was downgraded the day after DCC due to the AAI corporate debt. Also AAI was profitable but not amazingly so. I honestly think given their corp debt and the economy that AAI was most likely at the end of its growth cycle. I don't think it was in the cards for you to see huge gains with an AAI as a stand alone but I can't guarantee that any more than you can guarantee that AAI management would not have started selling off you delivery slots to some third party. Can you guarantee that AAI would not have stagnated or shrank?
As far as the SWA career earnings the thing is all our pay rates have done is keep up with inflation. Everyone else has gone backwards.
This AIP protects the AAI captain seats and most of the AAI pilots monthly bidding power and therefore QOL. The only unsolveable rub as I see it was when it came to F/O upgrades. Upgrades have more to due with money than QOL since we all take a QOL hit when we upgrade. The AAI F/Os and the SWA F/Os upgrade expectations can't simultaniously be met. Since AAI has virtually no retirements the only way for the AAI pilots to see upgrades was through growth which may or may not have happend. SWA has retirements which means upgrades even in a no growth mode. The AAI pilot group in this AIP is getting AAI capt pay immediately. Your career earnings have increased. All this AIP has done for me is not delayed my upgrade based on retirements only and zero growth. My career earnings are neutral. If the AAI pilots get a better list where they upgrade sooner my upgrade will be delayed. At that point their career earnings which are already increasing will increase even more but mine will decrease.
I don't grudge the AAI pilots the gains they are receiving. I do however think fair and equitable means that those gains should not come at my expense.

 

[On Your Six]

Jonjuan Of course there are no guarantees but what you have to deal with is the facts as they stand. AAI was heavily debt loaded. So much so that SWAs bond rating was downgraded the day after DCC due to the AAI corporate debt. Also AAI was profitable but not amazingly so. I honestly think given their corp debt and economy that AAI was most likely at the end of its growth cycle. My point is I don't think it was in the cards for you to see huge gains with an AAI as a stand alone but I can't guarantee that any more than you can guarantee that your management would not have started selling off you delivery slots to some third party. Can you guarantee that AAI would not have stagnated or shrank?
As far as the SWA career earnings the thing is all our pay rates have done is keep up with inflation. Everyone else has gone backwards.
This AIP protects the AAI captain seats and most of the AAI pilots monthly bidding power and therefore QOL. The only unsolveable rub as I see it was when it came to F/O upgrades. Upgrades have more to due with money that
QOL since we all take a QOL hit when we upgrade. The AAI F/Os and the SWA F/Os upgrade expectations can't simultaniously be met. The vast majority of the retirements are coming on the SWA side which also has a demographically older pilot group. The AAI pilot group in this AIP is getting AAI capt pay immediately. Your career earnings have increased. All this AIP has done for me is not delayed my upgrade based on retirements only and zero growth. My career earnings are neutral. If the AAI pilots get a better list where they upgrade sooner my upgrade will be delayed. At that point their career earnings which are already increasing will increase even more but mine will decrease.
I don't grudge the AAI pilots the gains they are receiving. I do however think fair and equitable means that those gains should not come at my expense.

You are WRONG and sound scared. Airtran was not doing poorly whenacquired by SWA, and now SWA has more debt after acquiring it. If they don't like your offer, I hope they vote it down and go for better. GK obviously wants this deal done, and that is the truth. Quit crying about what normally happens in mergers/aquisitions. Things can't always go your way, and being a spoiled brat won't help. You'd get laughed at by an arbitrator if you brought up these same points to him/her. You will gain a stronger company, so there! Fair and equitable.



OYS

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

You are WRONG and SCARED. Airtran was not doing poorly when acquired by SWA, and now SWA has more debt after acquiring it. If they don't like your offer, I hope they vote it down and go for better. GK obviously wants this deal done, and that is the truth.



OYS

I never said they were doing poorly. What I said was they had a lot of debt and were not setting the world on fire with their profits. That situation is not normally conducive to growth.
It's not "my deal" its GKs deal that was agreed to by the ALPA MC and SWAPA NC. They have every right to vote it down. If they do we will proceed to the next step. I think this deal is better for everyone than what might come out of arbitration. I can only assume that the AAI MC thought so or they would not have signed the agreement. I don't want arbitration but I don't fear it.
My point was and is I don't expect to gain from this acquisition but I do expect to not lose.

 

[On Your Six]

I never said they were doing poorly. What I said was they had a lot of debt and were not setting the world on fire with their profits. That situation is not normally conducive to growth.
It's not "my deal" its GKs deal that was agreed to by the ALPA MC and SWAPA NC. They have every right to vote it down. If they do we will proceed to the next step. I think this deal is better for everyone than what might come out of arbitration. I can only assume that the AAI MC thought so or they would not have signed the agreement. I don't want arbitration but I don't fear it.
My point was and is I don't expect to gain from this acquisition but I do expect to not lose.

A lot of people are questioning the AT MC and their decision to accept a deal like this. If the AT pilots don't like it as a whole, it has to go back for rework, and that could lead to arbitration, which is a gamble for each side. If the SWA pilots want more from this deal, they may want to ask for it FROM MANAGEMENT, not take it from your future brothers and sisters. Ask for a small raise or stock for your participation.



OYS

 

[waveflyer]

I hate to piss in your wheaties but you speaketh with forked tongue

12 yr 737/narrowbody captain pay, as taken from AirlinePilotCentral

Alaska-177/hr
DAL-174/hr
AMR-166/hr
AAI-162/hr
JetBlue-159/hr
CO-150/hr
US Air-138/hr
UAL-137/hr
Your simple fact is in error

First, do you like Grape or wild berry flavored haterade?

its ridiculous to NOT use their pay at the snapshot. Next thing you guys will try to use a seniority list from after the snapshot... But since you are generally ridiculous- how many of their guys are at 12 year pay?- bc 8 year AT capt pay is under $150. Only $10/ hr more than an eight year badly converted APC FO rate- and right on par with our 12 year FOs. Ill bet that SWAs 8 year FOs outearn AT's 8 year captains. Want to take that bet?
There are no captains at WN that aren't topped out- how many at AT aren't?
And that's using their current rates facilitated in by this buyout. Their capt pay is pretty much WN FO pay. They'll get job security and a much better mgmt and work environment.

Here's a challenge to every troll, tranny, and hater on here: name ONE real thing that a Swapa pilot will get out of this that an AT pilot will not??

It's always ironic to me how much pilots hate on WN and then bitch about their own mgmt.

 

[titan1]

How do you guarantee that AAI's career earnings don't suffer from what was proposed? In other words, how do you guarantee the future say 10 years from now? Remember, 17 years into their history, SWA had lower than average career earnings. Has "career earnings" ever figured into an arbitrators decision? I really don't know.

Dumb *ss! Tranny is a sub-par airline. Remember not ONE swa pilot had an application to be a pilot at your exceptional(?) Airline. Why is that? Tranny is nothing more than a stepping stone to a major airline. You are not much more than a low paying commuter squeeze. C'mon man! Be real boyz.

 

[CMonBoard]

titan1, Ha ha ha. Eight posts and that's all you've got? Really? Next thing you know I'll start hearing Yo Mamma jokes or perhaps some 4th grade fart jokes. Grow up or put the Jack N Coke down. C'mon man! B real boyz.

How about you take that 18,000 hours and do something productive. Go volunteer at a school or something to take our some of your aggression on 3rd graders.

Someone else said it best, when all this is over people can either be mad for the next 20 years or just deal with it and ask for direct to get home sooner. I see the point on both sides, I just think someone neutral should have decided it from the beginning.

 

[freightdogfred]

First, do you like Grape or wild berry flavored haterade?

I don't hate at all, just refuting his statement that AAI is a low paying LCC.
In fact, next to WN, it is about the highest paying one, paying more than half the legacys. I posted the rates from APC to support my statement.

its ridiculous to NOT use their pay at the snapshot. Next thing you guys will try to use a seniority list from after the snapshot... But since you are generally ridiculous- how many of their guys are at 12 year pay?- bc 8 year AT capt pay is under $150. Only $10/ hr more than an eight year badly converted APC FO rate- and right on par with our 12 year FOs. Ill bet that SWAs 8 year FOs outearn AT's 8 year captains. Want to take that bet?

Generally ridiculous? I merely refuted an very inaccurate statement he made. There seems to be a misconception at WN that the pay at AAI is substandard. While not on parity with Southwest, it above all other LCC's, and half of the legacy's. I'm thrilled your FO's have such a high rate of pay.
To answer your next statement, approx 2/3's of AAI CA's are above a 10 yr pay scale which is better than 150/hr.

There are no captains at WN that aren't topped out- how many at AT aren't?
And that's using their current rates facilitated in by this buyout. Their capt pay is pretty much WN FO pay. They'll get job security and a much better mgmt and work environment.

Here's a challenge to every troll, tranny, and hater on here: name ONE real thing that a Swapa pilot will get out of this that an AT pilot will not??

It's always ironic to me how much pilots hate on WN and then bitch about their own mgmt.

Straight date of hire increases my seniority by over 4 years. If it means I lose my seat and the ATL base, so be it. I'll even leave you the keys to my airport car.

A 32 % loss of seniority is a bitter pill to swallow. Would you vote yes for something like that?