It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[dicko]

There's that math deficient 32% again.... For the 100th time- Under DOH, what would your % loss of seniority be?

An interesting question. I dusted of my trusty abacus and after 3 hours of work came up with 45989 % ...... I was shocked.

Reworking the numbers I found that my seniority loss using DOH would be 11%. I'd be a very, very junior CA. Under this proposed agreement I'm a very, very junior CA and I will remain that way for the next 10 years.

The advantage of DOH would be that there would be no need for all of the protections and conditions. I still wouldn't be able to hold ATL and a SWA pilot probably would. No problem.

 

[GoodTimes]

Why argue about the agreement now? It is what it is. Vote accordingly if an when you're given the opportunity.

 

[humveedriver]

Humvee- where on earth do you think you deserve a DOH integration with the company that bought you. You get your longevity for pay- but me and our FOs shouldn't be punished for taking the extra time it took to get the swa job- that's a fact you guys like to ignore

Wave the best I can offer is I'm sorry SWA bought us. I know it messes things up for alot of people. For the next ten years at least. I don't think SWA will be the same after this. It won't be terrible. But I think it's just another step in making SWA another large corporation. I hope I'm wrong. I have always admired the slow steady growth of SWA, seems like GK is getting away from what has worked for so long. I guess that's one reason why I think the seniority number is worth more than the seat. Understand I am a 2001 guy sitting on the upgrade fence by SWA timelines.

 

[Music]

Wave the best I can offer is I'm sorry SWA bought us. I know it messes things up for alot of people. For the next ten years at least. I don't think SWA will be the same after this. It won't be terrible. But I think it's just another step in making SWA another large corporation. I hope I'm wrong. I have always admired the slow steady growth of SWA, seems like GK is getting away from what has worked for so long. I guess that's one reason why I think the seniority number is worth more than the seat. Understand I am a 2001 guy sitting on the upgrade fence by SWA timelines.

If we were looking at an agreement that was much closer to DOH, even without many of the proposed C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" us, I would be much more willing to vote yes. Unfortunately, we're not. That's why you're seeing many of the AT captains that this agreement was supposed to appeal to, reject it.

 

[Kharma Police]

If we were looking at an agreement that was much closer to DOH, even without many of the proposed C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" us, I would be much more willing to vote yes. Unfortunately, we're not. That's why you're seeing many of the AT captains that this agreement was supposed to appeal to, reject it.

I trust Slick and Big Sis about as far as I can throw them, we have the right to decide our own future. I have a list of questions for the roadshow but for now, I'm voting yes.

 

[GuppyWN]

If we were looking at an agreement that was much closer to DOH, even without many of the proposed C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" us, I would be much more willing to vote yes. Unfortunately, we're not. That's why you're seeing many of the AT captains that this agreement was supposed to appeal to, reject it.

How much closer do DOH? Just scanning the list I don't recall seeing ANY Airtran captain losing 3.5 years. 3 at the top to under 2 at the bottom is what I remember.

Gup

 

[dicko]

How much closer do DOH? Just scanning the list I don't recall seeing ANY Airtran captain losing 3.5 years. 3 at the top to under 2 at the bottom is what I remember.

Gup

I lost 3.75 years. I'd show you, but then I'd have to keep you in my basement.

 

[Music]

I trust Slick and Big Sis about as far as I can throw them, we have the right to decide our own future. I have a list of questions for the roadshow but for now, I'm voting yes.

I do get that. I really do. As a matter of fact, I too have very little confidence in the union right now. Unfortunately, my vote is not a referendum on my confidence in the union. My no vote is based solely on the agreement. As I stated in my original post earlier today, I am voting for what's bet for my family, and I would expect others to do same, so I respect that you have to vote yes for your own reasons Karma.

 

[GuppyWN]

I lost 3.75 years. I'd show you, but then I'd have to keep you in my basement.

LOL.... fair enough. I think I'll take your word for it.

Gup

 

[Music]

How much closer do DOH? Just scanning the list I don't recall seeing ANY Airtran captain losing 3.5 years. 3 at the top to under 2 at the bottom is what I remember.

Gup

Gup, I lost 3.91 years as an 11 year captain (mid '01 to mid '05). Unfortunately, the C & Rs are as much of a problem as the SLI, for me that is.

 

[GuppyWN]

all I want is to have some modicum (REPEAT, modicum) of QOL that I had before this happened. The current agreement will not even scratch the surface of what I currently have. And while it's clear another job wouldn't provide that either, I still have to vote my conscience based on the current agreement.

Since you're protected in ATL you could bid back to FO, be #1, have the same/more pay than today AND you're QOL would be "off da hook!"

,
Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

I do get that. I really do. As a matter of fact, I too have very little confidence in the union right now. Unfortunately, my vote is not a referendum on my confidence in the union. My no vote is based solely on the agreement. As I stated in my original post earlier today, I am voting for what's bet for my family, and I would expect others to do same, so I respect that you have to vote yes for your own reasons Karma.

I think we will be playing Russian Roulette with a pistol not a revolver if this goes to arbitration. The sad thing is you and I will be sitting directly next to Slick and Big Sis when they pull the trigger. I hope I'm wrong...........

 

[DonVerita]

Since you're protected in ATL you could bid back to FO, be #1, have the same/more pay than today AND you're QOL would be "off da hook!"

,
Gup

Why should he have to?

A fair and equitable SLI would allow him to hold his current seat at his current QOL.

Anyone who downgrades will not see a re-up for a long, long time. So it's pointless to even think of doing it.

 

[humveedriver]

I can see DOH minus 2 because of the retirements on the SWA side. But the 3.9 Year loss that I fall into as well makes me look at arb. as a better option. The C and R essentially forces the jr AT Cpts to keep their seats or else. That's why I think this deal doesn't pass muster. It's all about GK keeping his training costs down. There is too much lose/lose for both sides.

 

[Music]

Since you're protected in ATL you could bid back to FO, be #1, have the same/more pay than today AND you're QOL would be "off da hook!"

,
Gup

Gup, I kinda went through all of the reasons why that wouldn't be good for me or my family earlier today. Bottomline, it's not in our best interest to vote yes on this agreement. I say that with absolutely no bravado whatsoever, just regrettable sincerity.

 

[GuppyWN]

Why should he have to?

A fair and equitable SLI would allow him to hold his current seat at his current QOL.

Anyone who downgrades will not see a re-up for a long, long time. So it's pointless to even think of doing it.

It was a joke Don.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

Gup, I kinda went through all of the reasons why that wouldn't be good for me or my family earlier today. Bottomline, it's not in our best interest to vote yes on this agreement. I say that with absolutely no bravado whatsoever, just regrettable sincerity.

If you're a 717 guy your QOL will be identical to today. Correct?

Gup

 

[Music]

I think we will be playing Russian Roulette with a pistol not a revolver if this goes to arbitration. The sad thing is you and I will be sitting directly next to Slick and Big Sis when they pull the trigger. I hope I'm wrong...........

Again you're right Kharma, it is Russian roulette, and it took me a long time to read and digest the magnitude of this agreement and how it effects my family to reach my decision to vote no (again, if given the choice to). Believe me, I take no pleasure in voting no, and again understand the full ramifications of doing so.

sighhhhhh....

 

[Music]

If you're a 717 guy your QOL will be identical to today. Correct?

Gup

I'm not. I'm a 73 guy. If I was a 71 guy my decision might be different. But I didn't analyze the agreement from that perspective.

 

[freightdogfred]

There's that math deficient 32% again.... For the 100th time- Under DOH, what would your % loss of seniority be?

I dunno. I looked at that list 1 time, could not bear to look again. I'm in the 5200's, which lumps me in with WN-07 hires. I'm in the top third at AAI, so that would put me in the bottom third. My 02 DOH would put me about middle of the road I guess, somewhere at the top of a FO side I'm thinking so a loss of around 10% with DOH.

And again- what were your rates at the snapshot? They are the only one's that count in this.

About 153/hr- far from the lowest paying LCC as you claimed.

I can't speak for you. I turned down AT back in 2005 for better options- you guys were getting beat down, fighting for a semi-par contract-

I'm ecstatic for you, you landed your dream job. When my last job went down the ********************ter, I shotgunned out resumes everywhere, AAI hired me. I got an email from WN stating to update my resume electronically as they were going to a new database. I replied thanx, but I got a job.

I personally believe in SWA. That's why I applied and didn't stop til I got the job. So yes- in your situation- you'd be an idiot not to thank god every day for this agreement- and the opportunity to fly at swa.

I have lotsa homeboys over there at WN. I'm excited at the opportunities the merger can bring, and if successful can really shake things up on the domestic market. I don't feel this AIP is fair to either side, the fact there are so many fences and restrictions is testament to that fact. Not wanting to give up my seniority does not mean I'm not excited to be at WN, or mean that I'm an idiot. That's a pretty condescending statement.

You got bought. We're weaker in every sense of the word- youre getting huge money- yeah- I think "bitter pill" is a bullish/t comment when I've got a whole lot of friends striving to be new hires.

Weaker? GK got AAI for what...700 mil in cash, and the rest in stock? AAI had 450 mil in the bank. So he shoved out 250 mil and a bunch of paper and got 150 airplanes, routes that are up and running, overwater certification, the ATL hub, another MX hangar and 1700 pilots ready to pull just as hard as any WN pilot. I have not gone out a bought a big yacht with my huge WN raise just yet. I ask you- would you be willing to take a 32% seniority hit, for a captain's seat? Give me DOH as a minimum, you can have my seat. Have fun on reserve. (BTW i have lots of friends over there who can write recs for your friends.

Again-
Since you avoided the one question that matters- and I am challenging you: Name one real thing that a Swapa pilot is getting out of this deal, that AT pilots aren't getting in spades.
No signing bonus, no stock, no raises, no bump up in longevity pay- Please- name 1 thing

The one thing that SWAPA gets out of the deal, is the same thing GK, and all WN and AAI employees get- A way bigger, stronger, more nimble more competitive airline. It's been said many times on here that 1 reason WN bought AAI was to get rid of a major competitor, GK is no fool.
If the Seniority list is integrated fairly and properly, WN pilots should see an automatic 250-300 immediate upgrades. So be it.